Question about Mavericks and their range

[Zimmerdylan]

I have been setting up a lot of missions with the A-10 lately. I usually have my flight of 4 planes, and at times I'll have a second group, depending on what kind of air support I need to set up.

My question is: I can get my targets acquired via the TGP from many miles away. But it's getting my Mavs to lock at any distance more than 4 to 5 miles away. It's only a real problem if I am trying to take out a SAM or something. But I'm a little miffed because the other 3 AI planes in my group are accurately taking out the same targets from up to 10 miles away. That's great for SAM sights, and it would be great if I could also do this. Is this just another instance of AI having no real limitations, or am I not doing something that I should be doing?

I have actually talked to an A-10 pilot about Mavericks and what the advantage of the TGP is to it. And he (and 2 other pilots I know) all say that the TGP doesn't really add range to a Mav. Only early awareness to the pilot. Mavs are actually limited mostly by the battery they carry. It's a very high output battery that doesn't last too long. However, I'm not too sure what the actual range of a Maverick should be.

The pilots that I know have all told me that the A10 pilots do their best to just avoid SAM sights altogether. It's a very risky proposition to try and take out a SAM with an A10 and it is to be avoided if at all possible.

[AMEDooley]

China Hat Forward Short is your friend. It zooms in the camera and then TMS up short to force lock on. Depending on the angle I can lock from 6-7 miles out.

[dallas48]

China Hat Forward Short is your friend. It zooms in the camera and then TMS up short to force lock on. Depending on the angle I can lock from 6-7 miles out.

 

 

I think youre right about the angle.

 

I have a practice mission with tors at the abandoned X runways.

 

If I stay above 6000 ft i can get a lock at 7+ miles every time.

[Hallux]

You probably already know this but in case you don't. If you have your target on SPI via either the TGP or from HUD then you can you swap to the mav screen and when you're within range just slew (China hat long forward) and the mav should immediately lock (I noticed sometimes you have to move the cursor slightly sometimes).

 

Hope this helps.

[Bersagliere81]

Other than what has been said, I can only say there is a difference between IR and CCT mavericks. IR tend to lock from a greater distance (6/7 nm). That doean't mean CCT are awful, they are just different. For example agm65 D (IR) can't use force correlate.

I read somewhere it may also be dipendent by how the target actually looks with a certain background.

Dont forget to launch in the keylock zone (look for more details about it)

[cthulhu68]

I read somewhere it may also be dipendent by how the target actually looks with a certain background.

)

This is how all Mavs work. They need to see high contrast between target silhoutte and background to lock. This is why range can vary .

[Zimmerdylan]

Hmm....I've used all of the stuff you guys are talking about. Still, it just seems to want to lock no more than 5 miles away. When I slave it to the TGP, I will continually use the TMS up and it just tells me that there's nothing to lock until I get around 5-4.5 miles. Ahh.....I remember someone telling me to jiggle the Mav at some point. Perhaps this is what Hallux is eluding to in his post.

All I know is that when I give the command to take out ground targets, my AI guys are launching and they are 10 miles out. I just cannot get a lock from that distance no matter my speed, alt, or whatever. I'll just keep playing around with it until I figure it out. I'll start with the jiggling thing.

 

Thanks much guys! If nothing else, you have told me that I'm not committing any major blunders and that it's something small.

[cthulhu68]

The force correlate is only on 65H model.

[Yurgon]

But it's getting my Mavs to lock at any distance more than 4 to 5 miles away.

 

Which model?

 

Personally, I usually get the D model Mavs to lock at 6 to 7 nm, while the H model will only acquire a lock at 4 to 5 miles, sometimes even less.

 

But I'm a little miffed because the other 3 AI planes in my group are accurately taking out the same targets from up to 10 miles away.

 

10 miles, that's a lot, even for the AI. Are you sure about that? I think they usually fire at or around 7 miles.

 

In any case, the AI doesn't really need to lock anything the way we do; I think DCS uses a very simplified formula to determine at what range an AI aircraft gets a lock. Once the conditions are met, they can launch.

 

And he (and 2 other pilots I know) all say that the TGP doesn't really add range to a Mav. Only early awareness to the pilot.

 

I'd say it depends. The TGP should offer higher resolution and thus provide better target recognition than the Mav seeker. I don't know how much that is true IRL, but it's what we have in DCS. So if a target has been positively identified with the TGP and the Mav locks on to the same target, a pilot could launch at the Maverick's max range, whereas without TGP he might be forced to get closer in order to positively identify the target. This obviously depends on ROE, though.

 

Force correlate's uesful for launching beyond range, although I don't know how realistic it's modelled in DCS as compared to the real thing.

 

I've read several times that Force Correlate in RL isn't accurate at all. It's a way to launch at a low contrast target that the missile just wouldn't lock on to otherwise. The accuracy of the H with Force Correlate in DCS is extremely exaggerated. So, realistically, if you want to launch at a low contrast barn door from 5 miles, Force Correlate would be a good choice. Sniping a tank from 14 nm might work in DCS, but pilots wouldn't attempt it in real life.

[JazonXD]

Maybe they're not as dumb as we first thought :smilewink:

 

..yeah should have mentioned force correlate only works with 65H.

 

The force correlate is only on 65H model.

 

Force correlate is also available in the 65G which is also IR ;)

[dallas48]

Other than what has been said, I can only say there is a difference between IR and CCT mavericks. IR tend to lock from a greater distance (6/7 nm). That doean't mean CCT are awful, they are just different. For example agm65 D (IR) can't use force correlate.

I read somewhere it may also be dipendent by how the target actually looks with a certain background.

Dont forget to launch in the keylock zone (look for more details about it)

 

 

 

I think Bersagliere61 has your answer. I forgot to mention the keyhole.

 

 

http://www.476vfightergroup.com/showthread.php?3204-Maverick-Employment/page3

 

 

That, altitude, and the background around the target will determine lock distance I bet.

[cthulhu68]

Force correlate is also available in the 65G which is also IR ;)

Actually it even works on K version too! I seldom if ever use G or K so I guess that's why I thought H only.

[Zimmerdylan]

Through following your guy's advice and ideas, I'm able to get locked from 7 miles out now.

Something I did not know was that you can actually kind of lock using the TGP if the Maverick is slaved to it. You can use the slew on it so long as the Maverick is slave to it, it will remain there. I was not aware of that before.

 

Thanks all!

[Nu-NRG]

Why is it that every post about AGM-65 employment also includes AN/AAQ28?

[Gierasimov]

And yet it seems...

 

... that both speed and range are classified:

 

http://www.af.mil/AboutUs/FactSheets/Display/tabid/224/Article/104577/agm-65-maverick.aspx

 

If this is true then we can only guess and simulation is just approximate.

 

At the same time this one sets range somewhere between 7 and 9 nautical miles :

 

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_armament_article4.html

[HiJack]

It would be nice if ED implemented a selection called "wikipedia ranges" for missiles. Or "brochure ranges" if you like.

 

EDIT: Or "community ranges" and have a thread with discussion on what those values should be.

Edited October 25, 2016 by HiJack

[Gierasimov]

I am not sure I read you

 

It would be nice if ED implemented a selection called "wikipedia ranges" for missiles. Or "brochure ranges" if you like.

 

EDIT: Or "community ranges" and have a thread with discussion on what those values should be.

 

So what ranges are implemented in your opinion? Do you think they are entitled to know even though the info on the af.mil says it is classified? I am not quite following Wikipedia or "brochure" reference. What is it that you meant to say again?

[Fri13]

It would be interesting to know what it is, as USA military ordered the ED to make A-10C for them as simulator and I would think that they would have handed the specs about Mavericks like max range and such, or then at least the way to easily add those in-a-house and leave ED clueless about those specs, even after NDA.

[Eddie]

The ranges seen in DCS are already significantly longer than can be practically expected in reality. 3-5 nautical miles is the usual employment range.

 

As for theoretical range, the Maverick has a 100 second thermal battery, after that expires the missiles controls will freeze, and seeker and guidance will shut off and it will go ballistic. So if you really want you can get an idea of absolute ballistic range with some maths.

 

This is ignoring the fact that lock distance depends solely on the contrast between the intended target and the background.

[GGTharos]

And blob size.

[David OC]

This is ignoring the fact that lock distance depends solely on the contrast between the intended target and the background.

 

I was reading about an Apache crew firing off a Maverick in Afghanistan and IIRC

they could not get a lock, so they needed to lock onto the corner of the building

to get contrast and skew onto the actual targeted spot near by.

 

Can the IRL Maverick tracking do this if needed?

[Eddie]

Apache can't carry Maverick.

 

With a maverick you'd use force correlate in such a situation, however that also requires sufficient contrast for a scene track. Such things are why it's common to see both IR and TV Mavericks carried to increase likelihood one will be able to track. It's also part of the reason LASER Mavericks are more often used for CAS missions these days.

[David OC]

Apache can't carry Maverick.

With a maverick you'd use force correlate in such a situation, however that also requires sufficient contrast for a scene track. Such things are why it's common to see both IR and TV Mavericks carried to increase likelihood one will be able to track. It's also part of the reason LASER Mavericks are more often used for CAS missions these days.

 

My bad, was meant to say hellfire, I was thinking they may target in a similar way, Im guessing the Laser version of the maverick perhaps locks on similar to the Laser Hellfire. I can also see the benefit of using the Laser version for CAS as they could also designate the targets from the ground. Thanks Eddie