Flaps increase Turn Performance?

[MAD-MM]

After I am not aerodynamic Ingenieur have some question related to this topic.

Flaps increase the lift on the Wing as most Player use it to turn tighter, on the other Hand it increase also the Drag and limited max possible AOA in DCS?

After my understanding when I turn at high speed the max possible AOA as example my counter Part that's follow me in the same Plane should not can follow the Turn with deployed Flaps correct?

[Andy1966]

I'm no engineer either.

 

It depends on many factors, E-state and load out, your airspeed wont be exactly the same etc... generally flaps increase lift with a huge increase in drag, don't lower flaps unless you have to, and then just one notch, pick a menouver and pop flaps then retract them after it. that's my humble opinion

[NeilWillis]

The great thing about DCS World is you can suck it and see. Just get a human adversary to fly a few tight turning dogfights, and try with and without.

 

With something like the 109, trying to turn that wheel and fight would probably have made the whole thing very cumbersome in reality, with the G loadings wound up, even turning the wheel would have been difficult I expect. Hydraulic or electric flaps would be a different matter, and of course in the P-51D you'd have the option of small increments.

 

Instinct says that anything that increases lift would also tighten turn radius, but at the expense of increased drag of course. If you are defensive, they might even make your opponent overshoot, which could rapidly put you back on the offensive.

 

Sounds like endless hours of experiment to me...

[Echo38]

Flaps make you turn tighter (which is good) but also turn slower (which is bad). As you lower flaps more and more, at some point, the amount of gain in turn tightness may be less than the loss in turning speed. That's why many fighters had a combat or maneuver setting; it was sort of the "sweet spot," although that doesn't mean that it would always be a bad idea to lower them further.

 

Fowler flaps, which only a few fighters had (P-38 & Ki-43 are the two most common of them), have a significantly better ratio of "tightness gained" to "turning speed lost" than split & conventional flaps do, but that advantage gradually lessened the more the flaps were deployed.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Echo38

[Krupi]

Whenever this comes up what I wonder is did any pilot in WW2 actually use the flaps in this way during a dogfight or is it something only found in a sim! :doh:

 

I think I read somewhere that this kind of tactic was used for evading but for actually gaining the upper hand in a turning dogfight? :noexpression:

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

^^in dcs its almost mandatory though.

it seems that in dcs the gained lift from flaps, always outdoes the resulting drag. (well, there is a threshold were if you use too much flaps thats not true anymore. but thats excessive flaps amount)

in duels of p-51vsp-51 or 109vs109 we noticed, that the one not using flaps, will initially safe a little more energy at the cost of angles. from then on, the aircraft with flaps down will just stay as fast relatively to the one not using flaps and always keeps its angles. the one without flaps can only hold its energy advantage when never trying to gain angles but only outperforming the other with trying to gain altitude. but it hardly does. the relative energy between the two remains the same, until the one without flaps tries to go offensive, then the one with flaps will quickly gain and eventually probably get the kill....^^of course all of the above is only true as soon as you start to manouver and not fly straight.

Edited December 8, 2016 by 9./JG27 DavidRed

[Art-J]

Whenever this comes up what I wonder is did any pilot in WW2 actually use the flaps in this way during a dogfight or is it something only found in a sim! :doh:

 

I think I read somewhere that this kind of tactic was used for evading but for actually gaining the upper hand in a turning dogfight? :noexpression:

 

Japanese maybe did, as some of their planes (Ki-43 and -84 for example) had flaps designed for combat usage.

 

No idea about others though.

[Sokol1_br]

Whenever this comes up what I wonder is did any pilot in WW2 actually use the flaps in this way during a dogfight or is it something only found in a sim! :doh:

 

Depends on plane, situation, examples from P-51 combat report:

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/combat-reports.html

 

In that Finnish page about Bf 109, some pilot "anectote" say drop some degrees.

 

Some fighters, like P-38 has combat flap setting.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Sokol1_br

[MAD-MM]

Japanese Planes use Butterfly Flaps so far i know extend out of the Wing and extend the Wing Area plus increase lift, littel bit different so far from splitt Flaps that was most common design. So far my understanding the AOA plays also Roll here with Flaps the Angel increase but not pretty sure how this affect?

[Solty]

Whenever this comes up what I wonder is did any pilot in WW2 actually use the flaps in this way during a dogfight or is it something only found in a sim! :doh:

 

I think I read somewhere that this kind of tactic was used for evading but for actually gaining the upper hand in a turning dogfight? :noexpression:

Exactly as sokol linked (you can search for it clicking Ctrl+F and typing flaps), and let me get the most vivid examples of that.

 

An interesting dogfight during which, well known ace J.C Meyer went into a turnfight with a 109 in Belgium.

 

He saw the German drop flaps and he droped his own firstly 10 deg, then 20 deg. He also describes what the flaps did to his flight envelope.

 

He also says that to disengage he used his 67'hg MAP for constant 30min.

 

 

 

Also, his squadronmate, Sanford Moats

 

 

There are many more, and they are all thrilling to read.:book:

[Krupi]

Interesting, thanks Solty

[DB 605]

There is few mentions in (109) pilot memoirs of using flaps sometimes in tight turnfights. Seems to be more exception than rule tought. Russians also used them even their planes was quite good turners without flaps too.

[rel4y]

Hans Joachim Marseille eg was famous for using flaps to outturn even Hurricanes in a Lufbery circle at very slow speeds. It was a common tactic in the day to use flaps in turns, one just needs to remember your energy is gone after trading it for angles in this way.

[Solty]

There is few mentions in (109) pilot memoirs ng flaps sometimes in tight turnfights. Seems to be more exception than rule tought. Russians also used them even their planes was quite good turners without flaps too.

 

What is an Ace if not an exception to the rule?

I take inspiration out of those that mastered their machines and themselves, even if I fail.

[Jugdriver]

^^in dcs its almost mandatory though.

it seems that in dcs the gained lift from flaps, always outdoes the resulting drag. (well, there is a threshold were if you use too much flaps thats not true anymore. but thats excessive flaps amount)

in duels of p-51vsp-51 or 109vs109 we noticed, that the one not using flaps, will initially safe a little more energy at the cost of angles. from then on, the aircraft with flaps down will just stay as fast relatively to the one not using flaps and always keeps its angles. the one without flaps can only hold its energy advantage when never trying to gain angles but only outperforming the other with trying to gain altitude. but it hardly does. the relative energy between the two remains the same, until the one without flaps tries to go offensive, then the one with flaps will quickly gain and eventually probably get the kill....^^of course all of the above is only true as soon as you start to manouver and not fly straight.

 

That does not seem right, do you feel in your duels that the FM's are not introducing enough drag into the flight characteristics for the amount of Flaps deployed?

 

JD

AKA_MattE

[amazingme]

In a (flat) turn fight with an 109 vs P51, I always use a few seconds of flaps (not more than 5 though) so I can get the necessary deflection, but I have to be very careful not to losing speed (<320kph). Trim the crate a little bit up and you can end any Pifty flier right there.. unless his name is DavidRed ;)

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

That does not seem right, do you feel in your duels that the FM's are not introducing enough drag into the flight characteristics for the amount of Flaps deployed?

 

JD

AKA_MattE

 

hard to judge...there is definitely drag modeled...and flaps will decrease your airspeed...its just, that the one without flaps seems not to be able to make use of his energy/speed advantage...

 

In a (flat) turn fight with an 109 vs P51, I always use a few seconds of flaps (not more than 5 though) so I can get the necessary deflection, but I have to be very careful not to losing speed (<320kph). Trim the crate a little bit up and you can end any Pifty flier right there.. unless his name is DavidRed

 

:)lol, my P-51 skills seriously suffered as my brain is used to give 109 inputs...so my name shouldn't be in your post...

Edited December 12, 2016 by 9./JG27 DavidRed

[MiloMorai]

Interesting that Moat hit the wing fuel tank of the 109.

[Cool-Hand]

^^^ maybe he just mistook a radiator leak for fuel

[rel4y]

Interesting that Moat hit the wing fuel tank of the 109.

 

That's some nice aim right there. :P

[Solty]

Interesting that Moat hit the wing fuel tank of the 109.

 

He just said "the left wing tank". I don't think they were briefed on how the internal systems of the German aircaft look like.

[MiloMorai]

I guess Moat got his guns alignment fixed because he claimed 4 Fw190s on Jan 1 1945.