Little note about the FM from the devs

[Esac_mirmidon]

It´s no more SFIM. The Texas company was absorbed by SAGEM and now SAGEM is under SAFRAN umbrella.

 

https://www.safran-electronics-defense.com/aerospace/helicopters/flight-control-systems/flight-controls

Edited May 26, 2017 by Esac_mirmidon

[wolf5]

Yes i know but it'll be more easy to find something about SFIM than Sagem

[Esac_mirmidon]

I think the AFCS retain his original SFIM name. Yes.

[FragBum]

Another test.

 

If you disable the gyros, AFCS channels, and trims and you take off hands off the cyclic without touching it its possible to keep moving and flying like this BUT if you touch only a little the cyclic, a very little movement in pitch or roll its impossible to control the helicopter without moving the cyclic.

 

So it seems that its more a problem of initial stability of the Gazelle when you take off vertical. Like keeping a stable attitude that isnt taking in count the Gyro/AFCS/Trim turned off, until you move the cylic breaking this initial stable condition.

 

When you move slighty the cyclic with everything off is impossible to fly hands off.

 

Yes! :thumbup: If you have no centre detent like in a real helicopter.

 

I think the Gazelle takes off just nice *. i do not have a centre detent so I have to manage cyclic at all times.

 

Interestingly I find a lot of control in the close centre of cyclic operation and yes I mean a lot, less seems more, just saying. ;)

 

 

Alright some oddities in FM glass half full right. :thumbup:

[Esac_mirmidon]

I have an X-55 so, i have a little center detent, this is why i think most of the problems with hands off from cyclic comes.

 

But again, the Gazelle needs some work on the FM for sure, but sometimes is something so evident like a HOTAS center detent the culprit of some odd behaviour.

[Highwayman-Ed]

AFAIR British gazelles are SA-341 that are different than the SA-342. So the behavior that your real pilot said should happen can be inexistant in our version, but that is speculation :).

 

Correct, most Army Air Corps Gazelles didn't have a SAS system, but there were some that did. Can't comment on the RAF Chicken legs though.

[myHelljumper]

Another test.

 

If you disable the gyros, AFCS channels, and trims and you take off hands off the cyclic without touching it its possible to keep moving and flying like this BUT if you touch only a little the cyclic, a very little movement in pitch or roll its impossible to control the helicopter without moving the cyclic.

 

So it seems that its more a problem of initial stability of the Gazelle when you take off vertical. Like keeping a stable attitude that isnt taking in count the Gyro/AFCS/Trim turned off, until you move the cylic breaking this initial stable condition.

 

When you move slighty the cyclic with everything off is impossible to fly hands off.

 

Did you tried with a little bit of wind and turbulences ? Maybe this initial state is only possible because of the perfect atmospheric condition.

[Esac_mirmidon]

I will try it. Thanks for the tip.

[Fredo_69]

I will try it. Thanks for the tip.

Last time I flew it, it was like manoeuvring a moon-lander in vacuum. No response to wind or turbulence, other then drifting with the wind. Watch my video...

 

[BronzeYardNo11]

Bruh

[Gizzy]

Lads, to be honest I totally sick of this constant back and forth constantly regurgitating the same stuff.

 

We all got opinions.

 

The original first post was from the Devs saying they are looking into it so lets leave it till they come back.

 

Leave this post free for an update from the devs when they get sorted.

 

If you like the Gaz fly it. I do despite some issues.

 

If you don't like it leave it the hanger or ticket ED for a refund if you think you have a case.

[Flagrum]

@TripRodriguez:

as I stated before, I am waiting for a responce from the french army about some questions raised by us.

 

I can only ask for patience, as we have to be patient to for the answer from the guys that flythe helicopter on a daily basis.

Can you say when you expect to talk to the AdA guys? Just a rough time frame?

[FragBum]

Another test.

 

If you disable the gyros, AFCS channels, and trims and you take off hands off the cyclic without touching it its possible to keep moving and flying like this BUT if you touch only a little the cyclic, a very little movement in pitch or roll its impossible to control the helicopter without moving the cyclic.

 

So it seems that its more a problem of initial stability of the Gazelle when you take off vertical. Like keeping a stable attitude that isnt taking in count the Gyro/AFCS/Trim turned off, until you move the cylic breaking this initial stable condition.

 

When you move slighty the cyclic with everything off is impossible to fly hands off.

 

Are you using a jpystick with centre detent?? There is no such concept in a helicopter you have to guard the cyclic very carefully, in other words you must always be in control of it.

 

The joystick with a centre detent will be very close to balance of the aircraft I was able to take my hand of it with minimal change in attitude short term in flight but now that I have no detent that is not possible.

 

One interesting aspect is the amount of fine control you get without the detent action on the joystick around the centre position chalk and cheese difference for me.

 

 

I usually fly Gazelle with all channels off and AP off no trim. :thumbup:

 

Cheers Frag.

[Esac_mirmidon]

I have a X-55, so yes. But for my test i had removed the spring so no center detent.

[FragBum]

I have a X-55, so yes. But for my test i had removed the spring so no center detent.

 

Does that remove any centring action of the cyclic?

 

It's just that I can't actually not use cyclic, toque pedals, collective to fly either the Gazelle or the Huey or an R44. Doesn't make sense to me. :thumbup:

[Esac_mirmidon]

Take in count the AFCS system is trying to keep the last trimmed attitude so there are always some degree of hands off on this helicopters.

[FragBum]

Take in count the AFCS system is trying to keep the last trimmed attitude so there are always some degree of hands off on this helicopters.

 

 

As I said I have trim and all channels of AP and overall AP off, If I try that I'd end up slamming into the tarmac. Which I have done on occasion. :D

 

I'm guessing if you've trimmed the aircraft so cyclic is absolutely neutral you might be able to lift off whilst holding the cyclic "çentered" but that is not how my instructor has taught me. You still need to correct as you take weight off the skids this allows for unevenness of the ground, balance of the helicopter and wind.

 

BTW I am also looking forward to the update to see what gets fixed. :thumbup:

[Jester986]

Ok, actual helicopter pilot here. 2000 hours flight time, no actual gazelle time but I have 24 hours in the A star which is a descendant of the gazelle. Some of the comments on here by people with no experience about what should and shouldn't be are raising my blood pressure. Helicopter aerodynamics are extremely complex and there are limits on what can be simulated. That being said IMHO the Gazelle flight model feels the most like an actual helicopter to any sim I've flown to date including a professional training one for flying Bell 206 L4's to oil rigs. I only have a couple hours in Hueys but with respect to Belsimtek Polychop's Gazelle feels more like an Astar than the Huey feels like a real Huey. No it should not be capable of sustained inverted flight... But I have had another pilot take me inverted in a real Astar and I have flown one hands off at 130 knots with a little bit of cyclic friction. And I don't know if this is a fix after people complained about it but the Gazelle in the sim absolutely requires pedal inputs from me when changing power settings. Keep in mind the rotor system spins the opposite direction so the inputs are reversed compared to the huey. I haven't experimented with VRS in the Gazelle in the sim but I can say it is extremely over modeled in the Huey and the MI-8. The dangers of VRS are extremely over blown in the helicopter community in real life. It is a potentially lethal situation that must be taken seriously, however in flight schools we teach to get into it you must be descending at a rate of 300 feet per minute, be at a speed below effective translational lift, and have more than 20% power pulled in. This result in a panic from other pilots if your rate of descent is high on approach. When instead of look for set numbers you should be feeling for a tell tale buffet that precedes VRS. In actuality the requirements for it vary wildly, based on density altitude(which accounts for pressure altitude and temp), and weight of the aircraft. I've been trying to induce VRS in a Robinson R-44(low performance helicopter) for training purposes at 8000 feet and been unable to...

 

 

 

 

Anyway TLDR as a real helicopter pilot, I'm very happy with the Gazelle. Sure there's room for improvement, but I wouldn't care if they don't fix problems only caused by people intentionally trying to find flaws in the FM...

[myHelljumper]

Ok, actual helicopter pilot here. 2000 hours flight time, no actual gazelle time but I have 24 hours in the A star which is a descendant of the gazelle. Some of the comments on here by people with no experience about what should and shouldn't be are raising my blood pressure. Helicopter aerodynamics are extremely complex and there are limits on what can be simulated. That being said IMHO the Gazelle flight model feels the most like an actual helicopter to any sim I've flown to date including a professional training one for flying Bell 206 L4's to oil rigs. I only have a couple hours in Hueys but with respect to Belsimtek Polychop's Gazelle feels more like an Astar than the Huey feels like a real Huey. No it should not be capable of sustained inverted flight... But I have had another pilot take me inverted in a real Astar and I have flown one hands off at 130 knots with a little bit of cyclic friction. And I don't know if this is a fix after people complained about it but the Gazelle in the sim absolutely requires pedal inputs from me when changing power settings. Keep in mind the rotor system spins the opposite direction so the inputs are reversed compared to the huey. I haven't experimented with VRS in the Gazelle in the sim but I can say it is extremely over modeled in the Huey and the MI-8. The dangers of VRS are extremely over blown in the helicopter community in real life. It is a potentially lethal situation that must be taken seriously, however in flight schools we teach to get into it you must be descending at a rate of 300 feet per minute, be at a speed below effective translational lift, and have more than 20% power pulled in. This result in a panic from other pilots if your rate of descent is high on approach. When instead of look for set numbers you should be feeling for a tell tale buffet that precedes VRS. In actuality the requirements for it vary wildly, based on density altitude(which accounts for pressure altitude and temp), and weight of the aircraft. I've been trying to induce VRS in a Robinson R-44(low performance helicopter) for training purposes at 8000 feet and been unable to...

 

 

 

 

Anyway TLDR as a real helicopter pilot, I'm very happy with the Gazelle. Sure there's room for improvement, but I wouldn't care if they don't fix problems only caused by people intentionally trying to find flaws in the FM...

 

Thanks for the comments, they are very close to what other gazelle pilots said here :thumbup:.

 

It's nice to have the input of an actual pilot and to know that our sim is at least as good as a professional simulators.

[grunf]

Ok, actual helicopter pilot here.

Always nice to hear feedback from a real pilot.

[FragBum]

TBH I like the Robinson R44 Cadet, it's the only real helicopter I have flown IRL. :thumbup:

 

And yes feels, well like similar to the Gazelle in many ways. :helpsmilie:

[Hammer_nine_seven]

Thanks for the clear words. I totally agree to your opinion about VRS. Although I could log just one tenth of your total flight hours in the Huey, I feel that the DCS Heuys FM is damn close to the real and not worse than any professional simulator.

I'm really impressed how different those two helicopters are.

[Jester986]

With danger of going off topic... In fairness I think most of my issues with the DCS Huey are an artifact of using a Hotas vs an actual cyclic collective setup. Cant afford one :( but I don't suffer the tendency for pilot induced oscillations in the sim Gazelle as I do the sim Huey. I do like and enjoy the Huey and its FM is great when not hovering, but I just feel the Gazelle's is better. The one thing I wonder about the real world Huey to DCS is the auto? I've never autoed a real one and suspect it doesn't have such an aggressive tendency to drop the nose as in the sim.

[Hammer_nine_seven]

Jap, off topic, but you are exactly right.

[exil]

Ok, actual helicopter pilot here. 2000 hours flight time, no actual gazelle time but I have 24 hours in the A star which is a descendant of the gazelle. Some of the comments on here by people with no experience about what should and shouldn't be are raising my blood pressure. Helicopter aerodynamics are extremely complex and there are limits on what can be simulated. That being said IMHO the Gazelle flight model feels the most like an actual helicopter to any sim I've flown to date including a professional training one for flying Bell 206 L4's to oil rigs. I only have a couple hours in Hueys but with respect to Belsimtek Polychop's Gazelle feels more like an Astar than the Huey feels like a real Huey. No it should not be capable of sustained inverted flight... But I have had another pilot take me inverted in a real Astar and I have flown one hands off at 130 knots with a little bit of cyclic friction. And I don't know if this is a fix after people complained about it but the Gazelle in the sim absolutely requires pedal inputs from me when changing power settings. Keep in mind the rotor system spins the opposite direction so the inputs are reversed compared to the huey. I haven't experimented with VRS in the Gazelle in the sim but I can say it is extremely over modeled in the Huey and the MI-8. The dangers of VRS are extremely over blown in the helicopter community in real life. It is a potentially lethal situation that must be taken seriously, however in flight schools we teach to get into it you must be descending at a rate of 300 feet per minute, be at a speed below effective translational lift, and have more than 20% power pulled in. This result in a panic from other pilots if your rate of descent is high on approach. When instead of look for set numbers you should be feeling for a tell tale buffet that precedes VRS. In actuality the requirements for it vary wildly, based on density altitude(which accounts for pressure altitude and temp), and weight of the aircraft. I've been trying to induce VRS in a Robinson R-44(low performance helicopter) for training purposes at 8000 feet and been unable to...

 

 

 

 

Anyway TLDR as a real helicopter pilot, I'm very happy with the Gazelle. Sure there's room for improvement, but I wouldn't care if they don't fix problems only caused by people intentionally trying to find flaws in the FM...

 

Well, also a real Pilot here. Haven't flown the Huey (sadly), but some experiences on the EC-120B.

 

I can't really share your oppinion on the Gazelle. Here are some examples:

 

Try to pull collective while sitting on the ground without even touching the cyclic or the pedals. As a real world pilot you know it would end in an disaster. Try it in the Gazelle: Of course, the helo will yaw and climb, BUT it will stay dead on spot without any roll momentum.

 

Keep a level flight with appropriate power setting. Then try to nose dive with lets say an angle of 20 degrees nose down and recover that manouver with applying aft cyclic. Do the whole manouver with the constant level flight power setting. In real world, you would bleed off speed and start to climb again.

The Gazelle just puts its nose up but will still decends as if you where flaring with no power applied like in an autorotation. Only if you pull additional - that means level flight powersetting plus some extra - collective you will get out of this situation.

 

Do a slight turn with a 10 - 12 degrees roll angle with constant a powersetting in a zero wind condition. None of the helicopters i have flown would start to decend dramatically. Not even during a full 360° circle (maybe with a decend rate of max 50ft/min). And none of the helicopters i've flown would need great pedal inputs for such a turn. Guess what: Try it in the Gazelle.

 

And again and as always: It's not Polychop Bashing here. I'm still a fan of Polychop and also like the Gazelle. And i know the devs are on the FM now which is totally satisfying for me.

I just wanted to make clear that not every real world pilot is happy with the current FM.