Question regarding the Hornet 7.5G limit

[Gman109]

Not so much a DCS Hornet question, but a Hornet question overall. I suppose with the accurate flight modeling DCS does it is applicable still with the upcoming module, especially in multiplayer PvP fights IMO.

 

 

How much does the 7.5 max limit effect the overall combat capability of the Hornet family, when compared to other threat platforms like the SU27 family, Mig29 family, Chinese J10, and for gaming purposes PvP planes like the F15, future F16C, etc etc?

 

 

I realize that with stores and weapons most platforms can't pull 9+gs anyway, however in a pretty clean a2a loadout of say tanks having been pickled off and just a couple/4 AAMs loaded, would a 7.5G limited Hornet be at a major disadvantage vs a 9+G capable 27/29/J10/whatever? How does being limited to 7.5G affect the Hornet family of fighters in terms of best rate/radius in turns anyway?

[razo+r]

If you press the pedal switch (this one?) you can pull more than 7.5G. It will allow you to go a tiny bit above 9Gs.

[Alfa]

If you press the pedal switch (this one?) you can pull more than 7.5G. It will allow you to go a tiny bit above 9Gs.

 

"paddle switch" :) . The 7.5 Gs is the design limit - command limit is calculated based on fuel level/payload, so its often lower.

 

But with the stick full aft, pulling on the paddle will allow a 33% increase in command G limit, so at max its actually closer to 10 Gs.

[AKarhu]

Also recall that any aircraft which is dragging some stores is limited in g capability. Hornet is pretty smart in this respect for an airplane of its age, having dynamically calculated g limit. 9 g airplanes are very seldom that in combat loadout. Of course, same applies to 7.5 g limit of the Hornet.

[JumpinK]

IRL after activating the G-overrride switch and pulling more than 7.5G, the hornet would have to go through specific/extra inspections to ensure the airframe hasn't been overstressed/damaged during the >7.5G maneuver(s).

 

During peactime you might get your ass kicked for pulling more than 7.5G. Because extra inspection means extra costs.;)

[NeilWillis]

Given the choice of 20mm rounds riddling the airframe, or an over G report on landing, I know which I'd choose.

 

We're not simulating peacetime - the clue is in the title of the software.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

How much does the 7.5 max limit effect the overall combat capability of the Hornet family, when compared to other threat platforms like the SU27 family, Mig29 family, Chinese J10, and for gaming purposes PvP planes like the F15, future F16C, etc etc?

 

Interesting question. Some points to consider that might help the discussion:

• While higher G capability provides better turning potential, you can only pull max G at or above corner speed.
  
• If you're pulling max G you're probably not going to stay above corner speed for very long.
  
• Higher G for a given aircraft means a faster corner speed. This should mean that entering the merge at a higher speed is more viable, so you can enter the fight with more energy and turning ability.
  

The above is very much my understanding of the theory rather than being a DCS ace. I suspect the short answer is that while higher G capability is good to have, it isn't necessarily that much of a handicap. Its biggest benefit is at the merge, after which it becomes far less important.

[Fri13]

Given the choice of 20mm rounds riddling the airframe, or an over G report on landing, I know which I'd choose.

 

We're not simulating peacetime - the clue is in the title of the software.

 

We are simulating peace time as well. Every combat is preceded by a peace. And operations in peace time can escalate quickly to more serious.

 

This is why we really need a different civil aviation aircraft for AI to fly so we could add drug trafficking to normal air patrol operations for civilian airspace violations and passenger aircraft protections over war areas etc.

 

War is as well a situation where two countries has declared a war against each other. Like example USA has never been in a war since WW2 as congress has never declared the war against any other nation, so the USA can operate outside of the war rules. But that goes to politics, but point is that USA military is used in invasion operations and not in war, so the "Combat" name in the simulator name is about peace time military operations.

[RShackleford]

We are simulating peace time as well. Every combat is preceded by a peace. And operations in peace time can escalate quickly to more serious.

 

This is why we really need a different civil aviation aircraft for AI to fly so we could add drug trafficking to normal air patrol operations for civilian airspace violations and passenger aircraft protections over war areas etc.

 

War is as well a situation where two countries has declared a war against each other. Like example USA has never been in a war since WW2 as congress has never declared the war against any other nation, so the USA can operate outside of the war rules. But that goes to politics, but point is that USA military is used in invasion operations and not in war, so the "Combat" name in the simulator name is about peace time military operations.

 

No idea what you're trying to say exactly... are you implying all the missiles shot at US aircraft in the Middle East and Kosovo over the past couple decades were peace time military operations?

 

This is definitely a COMBAT simulator...

 

Sorry, but I don't think helicopters intercepting Cessna Caravans at the border is the intent behind DCS

[Alfa]

Also recall that any aircraft which is dragging some stores is limited in g capability. Hornet is pretty smart in this respect for an airplane of its age, having dynamically calculated g limit.

 

Yup - mind you, the g-limit is only dynamically calculated below a gross weight of 44,000 lbs - above this its fixed at + 5.5 Gs, while the negative g-limit is fixed at -3 regardless of weight.

 

9 g airplanes are very seldom that in combat loadout. Of course, same applies to 7.5 g limit of the Hornet.

 

Yes IIRC the 7.5 G limit is for a gross weight of up to some 32.000 lbs - i.e. with a very light payload(fuel and stores), considering that the dry-weight of the aircraft is something like ~ 24.000 lbs.

[SkateZilla]

G Limit of 7.5 wont be a problem, as the Hornet can pull significant AoA and still not cross 7Gs.

[Gman109]

Thanks all - SkateZilla, thanks for that response, pretty much summed up what I wanted to know in a sentence.

 

 

Still, a really interesting question to me, and the answers here mostly are what I kinda guessed at, which is a 7.5+ limit isn't going to have a massive negative effect on the Hornet's combat capability vs 9+g platforms.

[M1Combat]

Well... I mean... It depends... ;)

[some1]

Still, a really interesting question to me, and the answers here mostly are what I kinda guessed at, which is a 7.5+ limit isn't going to have a massive negative effect on the Hornet's combat capability vs 9+g platforms.

 

 

Above corner speed your rate of turn and turn radius are limited by the amount of G you can pull, so you're at disadvantage compared to other airframes.

 

However, at lower speeds, the Hornet pilot can use its high AoA limit to put the nose where he wants - at a huge cost of energy though.

 

In the words of a pilot who flew both:

 

I like to refer to the Hornet as a “Gentleman’s Dogfighter.” It’s limited to 7.5Gs, which is a far cry from the Viper’s 9 (Sometimes more with the Block 30’s analog flight control system that will give you up to 9.3 or more if you overshoot the limiter). Dogfighting with the Hornet requires finesse and an above average ability to visualize the jet in three dimensions and manage your energy state. It is highly maneuverable, with the ability to point the nose virtually anywhere. It is a lot of fun to fight, but hard to master against a similar aircraft.

 

The downside to the Hornet is its power limitation. It is severely underpowered, and although you can get slow and threaten other aircraft with the nose, doing so can leave you without follow-on options. It is very unforgiving of pilots who ham-fist and bleed away all their energy.

 

(...)

So head to head, who wins? It depends on the type of fight.

 

A good Hornet pilot will take the fight downhill, try to get slow, and use his superior maneuverability to bleed the Viper down into his wheelhouse – a close-in knife fight at slow speed. If he tries to take the fight uphill or flat, the F-16’s superior rate and thrust to weight ratio will prevail.

https://fightersweep.com/2378/hornet-vs-viper-part-four/

[falcon_120]

If I recall correctly, in the case of the Hornet the 7.5G limitation was driven by the folding wing design, such that over 9G it was possible to rip off the wing from the folding part. Not sure if this is true or just a myth (Anyhow obviously the wing won't brake a 7.6G or 9G, but it will be stressed). But for example some ground base hornet that do not have folding wings are 9G capable. A good example is the Swiss F/A18C hornets, that can take 9Gs without requiring any special check out later.

[AKarhu]

If I recall correctly, in the case of the Hornet the 7.5G limitation was driven by the folding wing design, such that over 9G it was possible to rip off the wing from the folding part. Not sure if this is true or just a myth (Anyhow obviously the wing won't brake a 7.6G or 9G, but it will be stressed). But for example some ground base hornet that do not have folding wings are 9G capable. A good example is the Swiss F/A18C hornets, that can take 9Gs without requiring any special check out later.

Do Swiss Hornets have fixed (non-folding) wings?

 

Edit: quick Google search brings up pics of them with wings folded, so I guess that was quickly answered! :)

[falcon_120]

Do Swiss Hornets have fixed (non-folding) wings?

 

Edit: quick Google search brings up pics of them with wings folded, so I guess that was quickly answered! :)

 

Yes i have just discovered this, my bad...:/ Then i'm not sure why they are 9G capable, I guess its just some structural reinforcements here and there.

[AKarhu]

Yes i have just discovered this, my bad...:/ Then i'm not sure why they are 9G capable, I guess its just some structural reinforcements here and there.

 

Nah, that could source down to anything. :) There are large amounts of myths surrounding the Hornet that have come up from attempts to "explain" stuff, such as it not being counted in Mach 2 class, or its lower g loading, etc.

 

I am not sure how Swiss Hornets were reinforced, or if they were at all, what I do know of the structure of the Hornet is that the fatigue life of the central barrel structure (the part of the fuselage the wings attach to) is apparently way more critical than the absolute loading of the wing fold hinge in what comes to its service life.

[Svend_Dellepude]

...Then i'm not sure why they are 9G capable, ...

 

I could imagine it to be due to the different operating environment.

More stress is put on to airframes operating from a carrier then landbased airframes, so in order to have a reasonable lifetime, allowable G's is limited to 7.5.

 

Just guessing here.

[Bushmanni]

Lower G limit makes Hornet eat missiles fired from bit longer ranges than F-15 for example. For example in a SARH duel you can fire sparrow 1 NM earlier at Su-27 and score a hit compared to firing at an F-15. The only difference is that Su-27 is limited to 8 G while F-15 can pull 10-11 G. G limit will also make it easy to force the Hornet to overshoot in a gunzo chase situation.

[AKarhu]

I could imagine it to be due to the different operating environment.

More stress is put on to airframes operating from a carrier then landbased airframes, so in order to have a reasonable lifetime, allowable G's is limited to 7.5.

 

Just guessing here.

My info puts it the other way around: European countries (Finland at least and I think remembering Switzerland as well though I'd need to confirm that one) operating F/A-18 discovered some accelerated fatigue damage in mid-life structural inspections, in comparison to the expected. The analysis put the cause on shortened average flight time spent in transiting flight, as opposite to maneuvering flight, as the ACM practice areas etc. tended to be almost right next to the AFBs.

 

I would not count out an option that the g-limit function is block standard, but the SOPs regarding the use of paddle switch for overriding is more allowing in that mentioned land-based service.

[jojo]

Lower G limit makes Hornet eat missiles fired from bit longer ranges than F-15 for example. For example in a SARH duel you can fire sparrow 1 NM earlier at Su-27 and score a hit compared to firing at an F-15. The only difference is that Su-27 is limited to 8 G while F-15 can pull 10-11 G. G limit will also make it easy to force the Hornet to overshoot in a gunzo chase situation.

 

Are you talking about BVR or dogfight ?

 

Because in BVR the last thing I want to do is pulling 9G, which kills my energy and makes me a sitting duck.

[Guest Guest]

I don't think max G is the major factor of a good jet because good pilots can beat their opponents with a lower G load essentially working a lot less than the other guy. The Hornet is a one circle radius fighter anyway so you don't want to merge going 500kts. You want to merge slower than your opponent. I have no idea what ideal corner speed will be in the DCS Hornet, but in an ACM configuration I suspect it will be around 300-360kts so not real fast which will keep G's reasonable.

Edited May 5, 2018 by Heavy-D69420

[Boogieman]

Are you talking about BVR or dogfight ?

 

Because in BVR the last thing I want to do is pulling 9G, which kills my energy and makes me a sitting duck.

 

...unless you're one of those guys that likes flying above 40k feet at Mach 1.5+. Then every turn worthy of the name ends up being 9G+ :lol:

[jojo]

...unless you're one of those guys that likes flying above 40k feet at Mach 1.5+. Then every turn worthy of the name ends up being 9G+ :lol:

 

Don’t buy the Hornet then :joystick: