A plea to the DCS community: (re-)presentation of women in DCS

[QuiGon]

Yes, absolutely? You know why? i'm here to fly, not to be concerned about womens rights or equality between characters in DCS.

 

edit: let me clarify, in DCS specifically, it is much more important for the game to work than it is for it to represent women just because someone wants it for political reasons. I find it hard to believe one can be offended because the characters are men or the voices are men.. i don't react the slightest to the fact that many characters and voices in other games are female..

 

Has she demanded that every work on DCS should be put on hold and all resources should be diverted to the implementation of female voices and models? No, she didn't!

The entire ATC system is in for a complete overhaul as it hasn't been changed for many years and is pretty useless in its current state. ED has acknowledged this and is working on an overhaul. I don't see any reason why ED shouldn't implement some female voices among the male voices as part of this overhaul?

 

And as has been said before: This is not just about female voices and models...

[bell_rj]

I too would like some different voices as part of ATC update. I don't care if they are male and/or female. I'd just like some variety please.

[Farlander]

Has she demanded that every work on DCS should be put on hold and all resources should be diverted to the implementation of female voices and models? No, she didn't!

The entire ATC system is in for a complete overhaul as it hasn't been changed for many years and is pretty useless in its current state. ED has acknowledged this and is working on an overhaul. I don't see any reason why ED shouldn't implement some female voices among the male voices as part of this overhaul?

 

And as has been said before: This is not just about female voices and models...

 

maybe they will, maybe they won't.. i don't see a problem with it either way i'm sorry.. This is DCS, it shouldn't have anything to do with genders..

[Corvidae]

I find it incredible how much people argue against something that could be easily implemented and not affect their enjoyment of the game at all.

[Vladinsky]

I find it incredible how much people argue against something that could be easily implemented and not affect their enjoyment of the game at all.

 

Not a single person in this thread has objected to the inclusion of female ATC/pilot voices that I can find. Could you quote them?

[NineLine]

Oh boy, did I get into this one late, so much to reply to.

 

First, I am totally on board for more options for female players. I know there are more woman playing this than most know. I think its great, and why not, many women are interested in flying, gaming, etc. So I am all for mature and constructive ways to bring it to the female population more.

 

SO... comparing it to Female Hysteria might be a little overboard. Lets be fair.

 

This is more like the men only golf club now allowing women, and even then, its not a fair comparison as women were never restricted from DCS. But the feelings might be the same for some. Guys feel they have a 'safe zone' here where they can be 'guys'. And then women start showing up, and the have to adjust their behavior, they get a little bent. But this is a minority I think. And as always, these minorities can be vocal. I would guess 99% of men here either have no issue, or dont even really care if a female is playing.

 

So what is the real issue here? Making DCS more woman friendly? Sure, I am all for it. Things like optional female pilot model and female comms would be great. But these also take development time, so its a balance. We have a handful of women, does that warrant the costs of development of these features? On the other side, do the development of these features bring more women in. I dont know. Its reasonable to raise with the team, but understand it wont happen over night, its not even on their radar right now that I know of. Not because they hate women, but just because this is how flight sims have been for a very long time.

 

So keep the discussion going, be kind to each other. Things will change. We just need to get there, and people being vocal about what they want is a good step.

 

There are multiple women on this forum aside from myself, who don't speak up and stay "in the closet". I wonder why...

The tactics used on this forum are in line with so called "hysteria" in the 18th/19th century, and frankly that should change: the diversity of society is something to be recognised and even cherished: it improves everyone's lives. Ad-hominem attacks don't help anyone, quite the opposite.

 

 

I speak up here with the best possible intentions, in order to improve DCS as a product, and society in general. :thumbup:

 

 

Thanks for bearing with me. I'd love to hear the (mature) opinion of the rest of the community!

 

Kind regards,

Raven

[Auditor]

Identities aside, I think there is a point to be made here:

 

It would be really nice if DCS had a profile creator that could extend into multiplayer, Maybe one akin to IL2 or ArmA where you could select your pilot from a lineup of portraits, their sex, their voice, and maybe your online handle from that. We sort-of have that now for tracking air victories, but not really for detailed statistics.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Auditor

[cichlidfan]

... that could be easily implemented and not affect their enjoyment of the game at all.

 

Easy, perhaps. However, there is a significant cost to ED in order to accomplish even the easy stuff.

 

Personally, I don't care either way but I do feel that the OP is blowing things out of proportion. Calling out Wags (or anyone else) for not saying 'people', or something, instead of 'gentlemen' is just plain silly. Most of the post is more about being PC than anything else.

[Flagrum]

Diversity is good, imo. Add different voice-overs, male and female, for ATC, pilots and so on. Add female 3d models of pilots, soldiers and whatnot.

 

All these are technical aspects of the game that can and perhaps should be adjusted eventually. This is something we surely can and should discuss.

 

But the community here as such, or it's members and how they interact with each other - in general and especially concerning gender issues - is not to be discussed here. Imo. This forum is about DCS and only DCS (moderators have made that very clear in the past). And thus, such social issues do not belong here. It is, simply put, just off-topic.

 

If I don't like someone, or if someone behaves in a way I dislike, then there is always the option to send a private message.

[Weltensegler]

I'm onboard, I used to have a female atc mod installed to have that variety.

[Idle_Wild]

I can't see either pilot models or ATC voices making any impact whatsoever to the overall experience of combat flight simulation.

 

 

This is thinly veiled leftist social justice and equality rubbish, and it should stay well clear of our sim.

[Impact]

Ok, so let's have a poll!

 

Do you want the F/A-18C in 2 weeks but with no additional gender model and voice?

Or do you want to postpone the early access release for 2 months so they use up the resources to implement female models, voices, make it all selectable by options, etc....

 

Let's face it, you give them the finger and they want the whole arm. If you add a female voice for the ATC, they will want a female voice for the ground crew. This wont be enough, they will want a female model, too. For every aircraft in which you can see the pilot. Then the soldiers on the ground, too. Oh wait a minute, this female model has bigger boobs than I have! I don't feel represented by this! This and that, it will never be enough. How many females are even playing flight sims? 0.00001 % ?

 

What does representation even mean? How is it empowering to have a female model in a virtual sim? Why don't you look up real women and their accomplishments?

 

There are much more important things to work on.

 

For those who say it’s “genderizing” to ask for female voice(s), female pilot bodies, etc...

 

Imagine if a company made an incredibly realistic and entertaining flight sim, but all voices and models were female. Would you buy it? Would you go online and fly with others? There’d be no nudity nor unprotective clothing/armor, just female characters.

 

I could see most* men playing it once or twice, but being forced to use female characters would irk your butts, and there’d be a constant call for male bodies and voices.

 

That’s how we feel.

 

And for the “Immaturity? Well, boys will be boys...” Rude and uncivil behaviors should never be excused, except IRL in the trenches while a bayonet attack is going on.

 

 

*There will always be exceptions.

 

How come that some of the best selling games feature a female protagonist and there are no men who complain about playing a female character? Nier Automata, Bayonetta, Tomb Raider, etc...

 

I don't think anybody would care if the voices right now would be female instead of male. It is just that there are much more important things and issues to fix.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Impact

[SkateZilla]

// Closed for Cleaning. - RE OPENED.

 

Also,

 

Everyone needs to understand the RULES,

 

Mainly 1.1 and 1.2:

1.1 "Lock On" and "Digital Combat Simulator" are entertainment-line products and these are for general audience. As such, it is strictly prohibited to post material considered inappropriate for minors or discriminating to any individual or group, including:

- Profanity

- National, ethnic, racial, religious, and sexual discrimination

- Postings violating laws and regulations

 

1.2 Forum members must treat each other with respect and tolerance.

Edited May 19, 2018 by SkateZilla

[cichlidfan]

I don't think anybody would care if the voices right now would be female instead of male. It is just that there are much more important things and issues to fix.

 

Exactly.

 

*not having a rep system sucks*

[cichlidfan]

// Closed for Cleaning. - RE OPENED.

 

Also,

 

Everyone needs to understand the RULES,

 

Mainly 1.1 and 1.2:

 

Regarding rule 1.1. The OP apparently thinks that ED is violating it with the gender bias of the game itself and it's promotional material.

 

Silly, I know, but that really is the gist of the OP.

[scitaborea]

Regarding rule 1.1. The OP apparently thinks that ED is violating it with the gender bias of the game itself and it's promotional material.

 

Silly, I know, but that really is the gist of the OP.

 

No, the gist of the OP is to open dialogue of adding female voices and possibly pilots and to have a forum where all are welcome to discuss DCS, regardless of gender (in this case). She clearly has had several instances where she did not feel welcome.

 

After reading many of these comments, it is easy to see why this is the case. Many of you have been very respectful, but there is a handful who are beyond any sense of respectful behavior in any community or online forum.

 

You may not agree, you may fervently disagree with the whole premise of including females. Some have already stated that they do agree with the idea of female voices, even pilots, but disagree with how the OP was presented. Regardless, be respectful and courteous and discuss it in such a manner that doesn't attack each other.

 

Anytime someone mentions that they are female on any kind of gaming forum, this kind of thing erupts. I was a moderator for another game forum during such an event and it astounded me the way some seemingly normal people responded and devolved to unrecognizable levels of common humanity.

 

We all love flying. We all love flight sims and the potential that DCS has aspired to over the years. The minority of you who are so threatened by someone other than your ideal infringing upon that are just that, the minority. It's nice to see others who are welcoming and, while some may disagree, they do so respectfully.

[cichlidfan]

I speak up here with the best possible intentions, in order to improve DCS as a product, and society in general. :thumbup:

 

The addition of female voices will not improve or detriment DCS as product. Society 'in general' is a social issue which is not a subject for this forum.

[NineLine]

I can't see either pilot models or ATC voices making any impact whatsoever to the overall experience of combat flight simulation.

 

 

This is thinly veiled leftist social justice and equality rubbish, and it should stay well clear of our sim.

 

Ok then, let me make it simple for everyone and not so scary. Do people see the value in having the ability of having female models and voices more represented in the sim.

 

My vote, sure why not.

 

Before someone posts "but there is so much else to fix" lets just remember this is a wishlist thread, nobody has a gun to ED's head demanding this change trump all other features and fixes.

 

Lets have a semi sane conversation about it. Doesnt matter what anyone is, we talk about adding other countries and their languages in, pilot models representing that country, etc. Dont make this more than that.

 

By the way, I already submitted the feature request for ED to consider more female representation in the future (they already have been discussing it by the way), note there are a number of women on the ED team as well. Welcome to 2018, its not an unreasonable request.

 

Honestly, it could be added like another language, so you have an option English Male, English Female, but again, its not going to put everything else on old, so its ok to discuss, I promise.

[cichlidfan]

Before someone posts "but there is so much else to fix" lets just remember this is a wishlist thread, nobody has a gun to ED's head demanding this change trump all other features and fixes.

 

It is only a wishlist thread because the mods moved it there.

[NineLine]

It is only a wishlist thread because the mods moved it there.

 

Which makes it a wishlist thread now, and the OP can see that as well. So what is the issue?

[cichlidfan]

Which makes it a wishlist thread now, and the OP can see that as well. So what is the issue?

 

I will leave it to the OP to comment. However, the thread was not created as a wishlist, which is my point.

[Mars Exulte]

I'd like to clarify that, while people on the internet can certainly be savage, if you look through this monster thread 95% of people, including me, are fine with the notion, whether supportive or simply indifferent. Aside from a few outliers, the main objection was with the way it was presented, not as a simple wishlist item, but as though the absence was a deliberate put down to women, which several here supported with commentary like: ''it's a *man's* game''. Some in their rush to 'come to her aide' just fanned the discontent by reinforcing the notion that it was more than a wishlist request.

 

Things perhaps became unnecessarily heated, but as others observed, that is common with political topics, which is what this quickly became. If that wasn't OPs intention, her choice of phrasing didn't help it. Things can still go sideways on the internet, as civility is often short in supply, or perhaps through misunderstanding (for example my terseness sometimes gets misinterpreted when I'm not necessarily meaning to be dickish), but the fact remains the tone you set / words you use initially set the tone for what follows. OP's basic request persay is reasonable, but her wording was dousing herself in gasoline and asking if anybody has a light.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

 

Before someone posts "but there is so much else to fix" lets just remember this is a wishlist thread, nobody has a gun to ED's head demanding this change trump all other features and fixes.

 

That's one of two concerns I have with the issue as it makes no difference to me and it'd do little to even affect my experience while improving to an arguable degree with others. It's still a very valid concern and I sure don't hope it gets maligned along with those that kneejerk to WAAA POLITICAL PROPAGANDA or some other silliness. It doesn't seem like this is the time for such an addition with Hornet and PE so close to release and the inevitable patching will come afterwards. They're going to be busy plugging as many leaks on those boats as they can.

 

And, I think a fairly large portion of the community does question a lot of wisdom behind the resource allocation ED has done in the past.

 

Another issue, or really a reiteration of the previous one, is how this would affect third parties. Can they spare the time for it? Would they be required to make this addition as well? It's good that they don't have a piece against their head because there's a lot of important questions that need to be asked about when their logistical capacity would allow them to make such a change if they feel it worthwhile. DCS both benefits and is held back by its pot-luck approach to programming.

[David OC]

No, the gist of the OP is to open dialogue of adding female voices and possibly pilots and to have a forum where all are welcome to discuss DCS, regardless of gender (in this case). She clearly has had several instances where she did not feel welcome.

 

After reading many of these comments, it is easy to see why this is the case. Many of you have been very respectful, but there is a handful who are beyond any sense of respectful behavior in any community or online forum.

 

You may not agree, you may fervently disagree with the whole premise of including females. Some have already stated that they do agree with the idea of female voices, even pilots, but disagree with how the OP was presented. Regardless, be respectful and courteous and discuss it in such a manner that doesn't attack each other.

 

Anytime someone mentions that they are female on any kind of gaming forum, this kind of thing erupts. I was a moderator for another game forum during such an event and it astounded me the way some seemingly normal people responded and devolved to unrecognizable levels of common humanity.

 

We all love flying. We all love flight sims and the potential that DCS has aspired to over the years. The minority of you who are so threatened by someone other than your ideal infringing upon that are just that, the minority. It's nice to see others who are welcoming and, while some may disagree, they do so respectfully.

 

Answer this then, seeing she pointed out one of the 3D artist here and how he was making fun of modeling parts of female character and it was just a little bit of fun that she took to heart and sees it as "highly immature"

 

What would have been said if the 3D artist had model the female form with his freedom of his imagination and artistry? Like other games...

 

You should have just model a normal woman? Average woman? That's sexist modeling a women like that?

 

What is normal? It's just art right?

 

 

You need to put normal size women in the sim too, otherwise is ED going to cop it on this side also?

 

Yes, the sim could do with a woman's touch and we need to lead the way for the younger crowd here and show respect to all of cultural diversity here on this forum.

 

This can be a slippery path with no end, hope ED and TFC are also employing more women such as programmers and artist, that is if women are interested in physics and flight modeling and 3D aircraft modeling and want to work in this field of computer games.

[NineLine]

I will leave it to the OP to comment. However, the thread was not created as a wishlist, which is my point.

 

The OP also had a lot of topics that dont fit within the DCS forums, focus on the ones that do, and the other ones can be discussed elsewhere.

 

Features for DCS are only being discussed here now.