A plea to the DCS community: (re-)presentation of women in DCS

[scitaborea]

Answer this then, seeing she pointed out one of the 3D artist here and how he was making fun of modeling parts of female character and it was just a little bit of fun that she took to heart and sees it as "highly immature"

 

What would have been said if the 3D artist had model the female form with his freedom of his imagination and artistry? Like other games...

 

You should have just model a normal woman? Average woman? That's sexist modeling a women like that?

 

What is normal? It's just art right?

 

You need to put normal size women in the sim too, otherwise is ED going to cop it on this side also?

 

Yes, the sim could do with a woman's touch and we need to lead the way for the younger crowd here and show respect to all of cultural diversity here on this forum.

 

This can be a slippery path with no end, hope ED and TFC are also employing more women such as programmers and artist, that is if women are interested in physics and flight modeling and 3D aircraft modeling and want to work in this field of computer games.

 

 

Personally, not having female voices has never bothered me as I rarely use the DCS controllers. Once they look into reworking the ATC, I do think it would be nice if the pilot could select to have either a male or female voice and throw in a few random voices (a woman or two) for the controllers.

 

I have never had an issue with the pilot bodies. I am totally fine looking down and seeing gloved hands on the controls and boots on the pedals.

 

 

My thoughts have not changed since I wrote that. I do agree with the majority of your last points, with the exception "this can be a slippery path with no end". I think the artists at Eagle Dynamics can come up with an average female pilot the same as they have with the male pilots, if they wish to do so. As I said above, however, I'm fine either way. Looking down in my VR cockpit and seeing gloves and boots really doesn't affect my enjoyment of flying in DCS.

[HoBo777]

I'd like to add some context to the discussion and set a few things straight. I was privy to part of the original snafu that started in one of the Hornet threads. Now I can't remember if I was the first to respond to Raven's(the OP) comment in that thread but I'm pretty sure it was my post that really got her ticked off. You see, I didn't bother to read the opening post very thoroughly and didn't realize that it's introduction was male specific. So my initial thought was that she had just randomly brought up the topic of gender. Also, It was I who then suggested that since Raven had raised valid points that the post in the thread concerning the topic be moved to a suitable thread and forums section where the conversation would no longer be derailing the thread, which we were doing rather severely (thanks BIGNEWY, sorry for the headache(s) ). The post by Weta that Raven is referring was in response to my request, and while I do not remember his specific wording, I remember it as being more disrespectful and indifferent. So if you "boys" want to keep the hat rolling, sling some mud my way, will ya? @Nineline the first( i think) link in the op is to an article about David Letterman, I think you'll find it a be quit revealing and informative(specifically as it applies to public relations). And, from real world experience LE and, believe it or not, fishing and hunting; the men(boys?) who cry the loudest about including females are usually the ones that are jealous that they're being outperformed by a female (it's a sliding scale, that's just the bottom).

 

P.s. Adding females voices and pilots (you can definitely tell their female even with the mask on, though i would focus on the helo crews first) would add to the realism. Also could wags do some of these, his is the only in game voice I don't mind hearing all the time ;)

[probad]

i love it when the hottest thread on the forum has nothing to do with airplanes

[HoBo777]

After a careful reread of the op and those post that object to the wording or tone I'd like to make one more point. Raven's post was not only reasonable and well worded but included several links to provide context, so far her's is one of the more professional postings outside of ED staff if seen in the forums so far. She makes no demands, she made request by using words "ask" "asking" and "Please". And to top it all off she starts the title of her thread with the words "A plea". Only those with out honor would show "indifference" to a plea and then attempt to shame the one making the plea.

[HoBo777]

Really, we're talking about pilots and their support personnel, plenty of other threads that discuss the topic of pilots and support personnel for various reasons. And it's actually about the in game pilots and personnel, not the real world too.

Edited May 19, 2018 by HoBo777
See what happens when you rush a post ;)

[ShalashakaDS]

Im willing to bet my left arm that people got more irked by the atempt at dictating how others should start posts and videos than by the request for models/voices itself.

[Slap_Chop]

Well anyone who has studied history knows that many great aviators were and are women. So I don't think I ever felt at anytime that women weren't an integral part of the aviation world.

 

I think we as men assume most women on the planet aren't really that interested in aviation

and the DCS sim so it's kind of natural that openings like Gentlemen etc happen.

 

I think most guys would love to have tons of gals interested in the Sim. So for me it's a non issue.

 

The intent never was to exclude women more of a sigh and resignation that this is a mostly guys thing.

 

Obviously that's not 100% correct. So hey , see ya in the skies ladies.

Edited May 19, 2018 by Slap_Chop

[Zimmerdylan]

When I come to the forums, or anywhere be it on the internet or otherwise, I do not ask what a person's sex, gender preference, religious belief's or nationality is. It never enters my mind. I don't know who is a woman, man, Islamic, Jewish, or Asian here. Why should it make any difference? It seems to me that pointing out differences and labeling them as Discrimination only brings conflict to the table. Pointing out that you are different when no one really cares (not to my knowledge anyway)or knows only serves to alienate you and makes it seem like you are seeking special treatment. I am Buddhist (I really am). Does that mean I ask people to address me or treat me accordingly? My best friend is Jewish, who happens to be gay. Should He ask for some New York Hasidic voice with feminine overtones for my bitchin' Betty? When I post things I do not point out my differences. By and large, I believe that many people do not know or care about these differences. In my opinion, this is a non sexual, non political, non discrimination forum. Bringing it into the forum is just asking for trouble. Sorry....It just seems kinda silly. I don't care if they ad new voice overs. That's pretty much a non issue to me. The original post seems to be trying to pull everyone into a discussion that doesn't need to be had. Just saying, "Hey DCS, why no female voice options?" rather than breaking into something that's political and amounts to femininst rant would have served your purpose much better.

Edited May 19, 2018 by Zimmerdylan

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

I will leave it to the OP to comment. However, the thread was not created as a wishlist, which is my point.

When I started thinking about making this thread, I spent a few minutes considering which subforum to put it in. I quickly nailed it down to either "community news" or "wishlist".

I figured it was both, and then decided to put it in the Community News section because of the "News by and for the community" subtext. I understand why it was moved to Wishlist, and for reasons mentioned above, I don't disagree.

 

 

 

I read every single reply since my original post, and except for sarcastic comments I made in a single post thereafter (inspired by Anna Kendrick's and Ryan Reynold's twitter posts), I never felt the need to reply.

In fact, there are good reasons why I chose not to reply to some specific posts: others did it for me, and some of the comments made came from people who clearly didn't read my original post thouroughly, and/or assumed things I didn't write about.

 

There are reasons why I phrased my original post the way I did ;)

[David OC]

There was quite a lot in that post of yours and you seemed to have got all worked up and pretty much spewed it all out, good for you too.

 

I have know problems with bring things up here and having more women involved and more of a women's touch for DCS when able.

 

It's always been quite good around here considering, with all the different cultural diversity as well as women too and many stubborn fight simmers that are a very passionate bunch that can get heated.

 

Hopefully you feel better now that's all off your chest. Now an we get back to the important flight simming things? Like the cool up coming hornet.:D

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

After a careful reread of the op and those post that object to the wording or tone

Thanks for that. You did indeed jump to conclusions initially, but corrected yourself thereafter. That is to be commended!

 

 

Adding females voices and pilots (you can definitely tell their female even with the mask on, though i would focus on the helo crews first) would add to the realism.

Exactly. I couldn't care less if in single-pilot jets there is no female pilot model, but for multi-crew side-by-side cockpits, it is immersion breaking, which I referred to in my original post: I am tired of the "Oh Raven I like your beard/moustache"-jokes...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hopefully you feel better now that's all off your chest. Now an we get back to the important flight simming things? Like the cool up coming hornet.:D

Obviously! I indeed feel better now, thanks! I got some very warm private messages both here on the forum and from my squadron members, and I did bring the subject to the attention of the community, which is what I intended to do.

That's one more reason why I didn't reply sooner: things were heated enough already without people thinking I was interested in adding some more petrol to the fire.

I wanted to point something out, and then jump back into my cockpit! :pilotfly::joystick:

Edited May 19, 2018 by Elysian Angel
added a quote

[Dauntless]

:thumbup:

[Zimmerdylan]

I guess no place is safe from this kind of silliness any more.........

[nessuno0505]

Ok, so let's have a poll!

 

Do you want the F/A-18C in 2 weeks but with no additional gender model and voice?

Or do you want to postpone the early access release for 2 months so they use up the resources to implement female models, voices, make it all selectable by options, etc....

 

I know it's off-topic, but I'd like to postpone the Hormuz and Hornet early access release to see 2.5 related ka-50 and a-10c bugs fixed first. This is what I'd really like!

[BitMaster]

I guess no place is safe from this kind of silliness any more.........

 

A very hot topic as it seems.

 

My personal POV:

I for one like it as it is, I have 1 wife and 4 daughters...I am happy NOT to hear a female voice from time to time, apart from my russian GF in the sim.

 

But hey, I don not mind if it comes like that, it's just not the right place to debate social issues imho.

[Guppy]

I say this as someone who has led corporate inclusion groups and facilitated meetings to approach topics that can make people uncomfortable... I think there are aspects of this OP and thread are a bit nit picky.

 

I believe intent is a huge part of this conversation. There's a difference between someone getting irked that a woman joins a TS channel/flying and someone casually saying "hello gentleman" during their stream. Of course, I am a man (though my wife would say I'm more feminine than she is:megalol: ) and I'm likely not going to notice these things like you are.

 

However, I have seen youtube videos where women say "hello ladies" because it is obvious that their primary audience is women. For example, my wife has shown me some crazy makeup artist videos on youtube. Clearly, there are going to be men who watch that channel as well, but I do not think they get offended or notice? I certainly was not because it's clear who the target audience was. But I also know that youtuber did not say "hello ladies" because she was trying to be spiteful or exclusive... so I didn't really care. If that makes sense at all?

 

With all of that said, there is obviously nothing wrong with choosing non-gender-specific words. Inclusiveness makes people feel welcomed and the more we are privy to the words we use and how they may impact others the better off society is, in general. I just think being mindful of intent is incredibly important; especially when this exists on both sides of the gender gap.

 

In terms of character models in the sim... Personally, I'd like to see far more other features added to the game than this. I think calling it immersion breaking is a bit of a stretch. The primary focus of this "game" is the simulation aspects of operating a machine. If you're focusing on avatars (of which look nothing like me: i'm far more attractive than these models:music_whistling: ) I think you're focusing on the wrong aspects of the game - but that's my personal opinion.

 

Final words, I'll fly with anyone. I could careless if you're a man, woman or LGBTQ.

Edited May 19, 2018 by rudellj

[Yurgon]

Isn't this a no-brainer? Making DCS more inclusive will help widen the audience, or grow the community so to speak, and also make our female members feel more welcome and, as the word says, included.

 

If changing "Hello gents" to "Hello everyone" helps achieve that goal, that change is so insignificant to most but means a lot to some, I just can't understand why we even argue about it. "Hello everyone" and that's that, one problem solved with the most minor adjustment imaginable.

 

Female voices and pilot models? All for it!

 

I don't recall anyone asking for this to be pushed to the top of the priority list. It's a feature request, and a good one IMHO. It's great to hear that this is being discussed in the ED team. :thumbup:

 

Apparently, in the sixties few people thought that this would be problematic:

 

Space - the final frontier

These are the voyages of the star ship Enterprise.

Its 5 year mission:

[...]

To boldly go where no man has gone before

 

Yet in '87 a follow-up changed a significant word:

 

Space - the final frontier

These are the voyages of the star ship Enterprise.

Its continuing mission:

[...]

To boldly go where no one has gone before

 

Reading some of the comments here, I can only hope it doesn't take 'til the 24th century for those words to mean it.

[Kev2go]

You know what? You are right. I'm uninstalling until this game has transsexual pilot model!

 

DON't FOrget about other gender ideentifications

 

I am protesting by Uninstalling DCS until there is Social Justice and gender equality for all Including those who idendify as "apache attack Helicopters". WE need an Apache Voice over, and a "attack helicopter" pilot model ASAP!

 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2018 by Kev2go

[WildBillKelsoe]

I am sorry you had to face this type of gender based segregation. I guess its up to the nature of individuals, their experiences with women. I had alot of bad experiences with women but I never think that women arent integral to what we do in our lives.

[Corvidae]

It's kinda ironic seeing all the posts in this discussion that show exactly what the OP was talking about...

[David OC]

It's kinda ironic seeing all the posts in this discussion that show exactly what the OP was talking about...

 

I disagree,

 

Everyone had THEIR say on this matter and it has gone quite well really considering the wide diversity of people here around the world.

 

Point out all these post that "show exactly what the OP was talking about"

 

Or are you just now generalizing everyone here with that statement.

[key_stroked]

Personally I don't have an issue with adding female voices to the sim. Should they be a priority? Imo no. This is a flight combat simulator, and not a gender equality simulator.

 

If ED gets around to adding more variety in voices I'm all for it, but not at the expense of other updates that fix bugs and issues relating directly to the mechanics of how the sim and its aircraft operate.

Voice variety is a cosmetic feature.

 

All that said...Elysian Angel's method of introducing this to the DCS community is heavy handed. This thread would probably have gone a totally different direction if she had simply said "it'd be cool if there were female voices and models. Maybe Eagle Dynamics could do that someday".

 

Instead, she opened up with this:

 

With this thread I'd like to raise a topic that is - in my view - underexposed and in need of discussion and (self-)reflection: the inclusiveness and equality of the female part of the community.

 

Making a claim that women aren't equal here is just absurd.

 

I don't remember a checkbox in the installation of DCS that asked if I was female or not. The sim doesn't care what gender I am, and neither does this community. We're here to participate in this hobby, and afaik no one is actively suppressing women or trying to actively exclude them from participating in DCS.

 

Suggesting that the omission of female voices and models in a sim where we have, at most, maybe 4 different voices, is somehow excluding women and making them unequal is a total stretch.

 

- There are no female pilot models to use in cockpits

 

First, not every cockpit has a pilot model. Second, for those that do with closed helmets, you could never tell the difference between a male and female model with the flightsuit, gear, and the helmet on.

 

For the models that have open helmets, like the one you posted a pic of.....sure. Let ED allow a female pilot where you can actually see the face and eyes and actually tell it's a woman. But afaik the majority of aircraft don't have a body, and if they do, it's unisex.

 

 

What I am asking for is not by any means "special attention". What I am asking for is not to be tossed aside as irrelevant.

To people starting posts (both regular forum users such as myself, and developers) and youtube-videos, please don't start of exlusively with "Hi gentlemen", "hello gents", or "Welcome to the Hornet, gentlemen". There are alternatives such as "ladies and gents" or simply "Hello people" or "Hey everyone".

 

Trying to tell people what they can and can't say or write doesn't really help your case, considering you're asking for open minds.

I would have just stuck with the request of adding female genders to radio calls and the few models with open helmets.

 

The above is pushing this topic too far outside what DCS is, and doesn't belong here at all.

[Dav IRL]

If I was a woman not being able to select a female pilot in the log book would be immersion breaking, I also think female ATC would be cool too.

[HoBo777]

Isn't this a no-brainer? Making DCS more inclusive will help widen the audience, or grow the community so to speak, and also make our female members feel more welcome and, as the word says, included.

 

If changing "Hello gents" to "Hello everyone" helps achieve that goal, that change is so insignificant to most but means a lot to some, I just can't understand why we even argue about it. "Hello everyone" and that's that, one problem solved with the most minor adjustment imaginable.

 

Female voices and pilot models? All for it!

 

I don't recall anyone asking for this to be pushed to the top of the priority list. It's a feature request, and a good one IMHO. It's great to hear that this is being discussed in the ED team. :thumbup:

 

Apparently, in the sixties few people thought that this would be problematic:

 

 

 

Yet in '87 a follow-up changed a significant word:

 

 

 

Reading some of the comments here, I can only hope it doesn't take 'til the 24th century for those words to mean it.

 

Great example of how just one word being changed can go unnoticed or seem so small, but I'm sure it was noticed and appreciated by most if not all those fans it no longer excluded.

[HoBo777]

DON't FOrget about other gender ideentifications

 

I am protesting by Uninstalling DCS until there is Social Justice and gender equality for all Including those who idendify as "apache attack Helicopters". WE need an Apache Voice over, and a "attack helicopter" pilot model ASAP!

 

 

 

 

That is pure Youtube gold right there