Period Radar

[DD_Fenrir]

Question to devs (via Nineline…?)

 

Notice there's no mention anywhere in the Asset Pack development forecasts for any ground based EWR/GCI radar units.

 

 

I'm thinking of Wurzburg/Freya/Wassermann types for Axis

 

http://users.telenet.be/Atlantikwall-15tharmy/Funkmessluftwaffetekst.htm

 

 

and Type 11/Type 15 and related Fighter Direction Tenders for Allies

 

https://www.radarpages.co.uk/mob/gci/type11.htm

https://www.radarpages.co.uk/mob/gci/type15.htm

https://www.combinedops.com/FDTs.htm

 

These were high value assets much used by their respective forces (particularly the Allies in defending the beachhead) and would also expand the target variety for both single- & multi-player in DCS (Spitfires were often used to dive bomb radar sites on run-up to D-Day).

 

Appreciate that the presence of these may assets may have gone below the devs radar (lolz) in the work to produce more tactically pertinent assets but is there any long term plans to introduce these?

[Yoda967]

I was wondering the same thing.

[xvii-Dietrich]

Agree 100% Fenrir.

 

 

Apart from them being good targets (esp. for the upcoming DH98 Mosquito), it would allow a level of intelligence for the Kammhuber Line / Himmelbett Zones.

 

 

Integrating WW2 radar with Combined Arms would allow a "ground-control / TOPHAT" role.

 

 

 

 

In addition to the references that Fenrir gives, I can highly recommend this one:

 

https://www.geschichtsspuren.de/

 

 

It is in German, but it describes the sites and the radars used. The Datenbank menu allows one to search for specific types and you can plot maps showing the locations (and then click on the icons for exact details). For example:

 

https://www.geschichtsspuren.de/index.php?typ=1&quad=8&sort=0&option=com_fmdb&task=1&Itemid=63

 

 

We used this for planning radio sites for the Storm of War (SoW) campaign. SoW are currently planning new material, and it would be great if we could incorporate radar units into the new campaign.

[QuiGon]

+1

[Magic Zach]

+1

[Sniper175]

+1

[71st_AH Rob]

And don't forget that currently the Blue coalition can't make use of GCI, only the Red one can. This would need to be fixed as well.

[birkenmoped]

+1

[Cunctator]

+1

[philstyle]

+1

[Knock-Knock]

+1

And the sites in place too. I know of this one and one around Cherbourg, in Normandy, and I think there was a radar station around Le Havre too?

[xvii-Dietrich]

+1

And the sites in place too. I know of this one and one around Cherbourg, in Normandy, and I think there was a radar station around Le Havre too?

 

You are right. There are several places that were radar sites in that area. Example (Funkmeßstellungen): https://www.geschichtsspuren.de/index.php?typ=5&quad=8&sort=0&option=com_fmdb&task=1&Itemid=63 Audeville, Saint-Valery-en-Caux, Cap Antifer, etc.

 

However, at the time of the DCS Map (July-August 1944), these sites had been abandoned or destroyed, with the main defence line sited further inland (e.g. there was a FREYA site at Creil).

 

This is why it is important that the radars are units and static objects, rather than map alterations. This lets the mission builders create sites appropriate to the dateline or the map, or some completely different era (incl. modern), if that's what is needed. :)

[Knock-Knock]

You are right. There are several places that were radar sites in that area. Example (Funkmeßstellungen): https://www.geschichtsspuren.de/index.php?typ=5&quad=8&sort=0&option=com_fmdb&task=1&Itemid=63 Audeville, Saint-Valery-en-Caux, Cap Antifer, etc.

 

However, at the time of the DCS Map (July-August 1944), these sites had been abandoned or destroyed, with the main defence line sited further inland (e.g. there was a FREYA site at Creil).

 

This is why it is important that the radars are units and static objects, rather than map alterations. This lets the mission builders create sites appropriate to the dateline or the map, or some completely different era (incl. modern), if that's what is needed. :)

 

Indeed, as units. But with 'site' Im more referring to terrain/texture in place, like the naval defence site at Point du Hoc. In general I find Normandy map lacking with those details.

[EAF51_Jimmi]

Bump +1

[rogonaut]

+ 1 -> please

[IronJockel]

WW2 radar units has been requested a lot of times and not an single response so far.

Functionality doesn't have to been that different from the modern one. Adjustments on detection range / altitude and correct radio calls can be added later. (It's not like much effort has been done in that area anyway)

 

That would give the game so much more than a other T80 disguised as a WW2 tank. Plus the broken path finding (if existing at all?) on the Normandy map would not even matter.

[Krippz]

+1

[Wunderwolf]

+1

[DD_Fenrir]

Well, almost 2 years after initial suggestion/request looks like we've got some positive movement in this area. Thanks ED. I only hope the Allies get some similar functionality soon also, both with the fixed Chain Home on the channel map and some mobile type 11 and 15 and FDTs for Normandy.

[philstyle]

mobile type 11 and 15 and FDTs for Normandy.

 

yummy, yes please

Edited June 27, 2020 by philstyle

[Enduro14]

+100000 Fenrir!

[xvii-Dietrich]

Excellent news that we are getting some period radar. These will be superb for a whole variety of mission scenarios. When used for pre-invasion scenarios, there are a number of coastal sites which can be used, and would serve well for DH-98 or P-47D missions. Sites such as Distelfink, Tausendfüssler, etc.. There is a lot of information on these already available.

 

However, I have been slowly collecting notes on sites further inland, as I think these will be good for post-invasion missions (esp. the multiplayer missions such as those used on the Storm of War server). These sites are difficult to get good details on, as records were either not kept or didn't survive. Additionally, the frontline was changing rapidly, so establishing dates, and relevant dates, is tricky. Nevertheless, I've identified a number of possible sites.

 

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 

 

Brutus-Y

Jägermeßstellung

49.08896, 0.53004

Stand 20.6.1944:

2 Freya-Egon

5 Y-Linien

OKL Generalnachrichtenführer, Jägermeßstellungen, Stand 20.6.1944

Luftnachrichten-Regiment 53 (disband.Sep'44)

II.Abt/Ln-Rgt 53, disb. Sep'44

 

 

Baumläufer

S.E. Bernay, 40.00N 00.44W, Reference 403/44, Date 28/7/44

7. Flugmelde-Leit-Kompanie II./Ln-Rgt 53

II.Abt/Ln-Rgt 53, disb. Sep'44

7. Flugmelde-Leit-Kompanie in Bernay (Stellung "Baumläufer")

Equipment uncertain

 

 

Gepard

südlich Gaillon

6. Flugmelde-Leit-Kompanie II./Ln-Rgt 53

49.10862, 1.34276

II.Abt/Ln-Rgt 53, disb. Sep'44

Equipment uncertain

 

 

Gepard-Evreux (separate station from Gepard?)

Gepard, Evreux, 49.01N 01.10E (Unbestätigt)

No record of any units

Equipment uncertain

 

 

Biene (interesting station, probably operation, but off map!)

Hoffmann II/1 S. 65: Außerdem waren im Bereich Belgien-Nordfrankreich noch

drei weitere Funkmeßstellungen (je ein Freya- und Würzburg-Gerät) etwa bei

Renaix, 50 km WSW Brüssel (10/BN), bei Bapaume, 27 km WSW Cambrai (9/BN)

und bei Bezancourt, 50 km NW Paris (12/BN) bei den in Klammern angegebenen

Flugmeldekompanien des Luftgau-Nachrichten-Regiments Belgien-Nordfrankfreich

zugeteilt.

E. Serqueux, 49.33 N 01.46 E

Ausrüstung

Stand 20.6.1944

1 Freya AN und Gemse

2 Würzburg-Riese

Location "off map"!!

 

 

Vampir

evtl. 11. Flugmelde-Leit-Kompanie III./Ln-Rgt 53

Unit disbanded Sep.1944

14500 Vire. Coords: 48.8397 -0.8905

NE. Laigle

Also: 48.49N 00.45W (?)

Equipment uncertain

 

 

Känguruh

Funkmeßstellung

Various units mentioned, all from II.Abt/Ln-Rgt 53, disb. Sep'44

4. Flugmelde-Leit-Kompanie in Coutances (Stellung "Kängeruh") [designation uncertain]

Possibly, later: 10.Flugmelde-Leit-Kompanie ??

9. Flugmelde-Leit-Kompanie II./Ln-Rgt 53

Abandonned: 26.06.1944

II.Abteilung disbanded in Sep 1944.

49.04279, -1.5766

Equipment uncertain

 

 

Wurm

16. Flugmelde-Leit-Kompanie in Verneuil (Stellung "Wurm")/Ln-Rgt 53

32. Funk-Leit-Kompanie was formed in 3.44 from 16./Luftnachrichten-Regiment 53.

48.70917, 0.82674

Würzburg-Riese

Operations dates unknown

Site was bombed/shelled, but date not known

16.Flugmelde-Leit-Kompanie (qui devient la 32. Flugmelde-Leit-Kompanie en mars

1944) du IV.Abteilung (formé à Saint-Lô en avril 1943) du

Luftnachrichten-Regiment 53 (formé à Compiègne en avril 1942, PC à Bernay à

partir de décembre 1943, dissolu en décembre 1944)

However, a second ref suggests it was disbanded in Sept.1944

The company withdrew from Wurm in July 1944.

It is therefore likely this site was destroyed in July 1944.

Noted that In 3.44 16. Flugmelde-Leit-Kompanie became

32./Luftnachrichten-Regiment 54 (Abt.I), possibly reformed.

 

 

Assel

17. Flugmelde-Leit-Kompanie in Argentan (Stellung "Assel") /Ln-Rgt 53

nr Argentan

48.8195, -0.1523 approx.

Status unknown

Operations dates unknown

 

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 

 

Of the above, I think that the Brutus-Y site is particularly interesting. According the OKL report, the site was still operating 2x Freya radars on the 20-Jun-1944. That surprises me, and I wonder if it is a mistake? Another interesting site is Wurm, which is further inland, and thus more feasible to be operational post-invasion. The units there departed in July 1944, so perhaps this site was still operating its Würzburg-Riese? Information of the other sites is even more uncertain, and I doubt they were operation (I've listed them any way in case someone else has more details).

 

I do not have the Channel Map, so I've limited my search to Normandy map regions only.

 

I include my references below.

 

 

 

If anyone has more information for those of us interested in historical missions, please let us know! It would be good to resolve some of the uncertainty of the above list. Certainly if anyone knows of raids against radar stations (i.e. from the USAAF-squadron perspective), that sort of information would be really useful. Thanks.

 

 

 

References

http://www.gyges.dk/luftwaffe_radar_stations%20in%20France.htm

http://www.ww2.dk/Airfields%20-%20France.pdf

https://www.relikte.info/more-flum.html

https://www.cdvandt.org/type-number_wizard.htm

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=83363

http://www.ww2.dk/ground/ln/lgbn.html

https://www.geschichtsspuren.de/

http://eure18701945.canalblog.com/

http://www.ww2.dk/ground/ln/lgwf.html

http://www.gyges.dk/Luftnachrichten%20Rgt%2040%20-%20130.pdf

http://www.ww2.dk/ground/ln/ln53.html

[MrExplosion]

Imo most interesting in Normandy is the Tausendfüssler which had a Klein-Heidelberg passive radar site. Im not sure about the exact dates of operation and since the Allies only learned about the technology way after the invasion it would be nice to have it enter the game along with a working Chain Home Radar.

 

When looking at your list Dietrich I noticed that "Biene"-Station lists a Gemse and Brutus-Y lists EGON. Gemse is a part of EGON so not sure how to make sense of that.

[xvii-Dietrich]

Imo most interesting in Normandy is the Tausendfüssler which had a Klein-Heidelberg passive radar site. Im not sure about the exact dates of operation and since the Allies only learned about the technology way after the invasion it would be nice to have it enter the game along with a working Chain Home Radar.

 

When looking at your list Dietrich I noticed that "Biene"-Station lists a Gemse and Brutus-Y lists EGON. Gemse is a part of EGON so not sure how to make sense of that.

 

 

This is a product of me drawing from multiple sources, which refer to the systems slightly differently.

 

I've been spending some more time looking into this, but it is difficult to find information.

 

 

However, I am getting more and more excited by the prospect of the radar units in DCS. The recently published screenshots are superb. https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/downloads/screenshots/

 

 

In particular, I wonder if there will be any ability to control this unit via Combined Arms? Just looking at the control room on the back of the WR... it has a lot of potential. https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/upload/iblock/23d/dcs-world-Wu%CC%88rzburg-Riese.jpg

[MrExplosion]

I've been spending some more time looking into this, but it is difficult to find information.

 

I recently aquired good literature on the topic of Axis radar and radio technology, so if you have any specific questions, feel free to ask.