Is it me or is the F14 getting owned in multiply Player?

[mytai01]

May I ask what kind of playstyle do you fly the f14 with?

 

Wild flailing...

[Drag80]

You haven't read any part of this thread have you?

 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

 

Well....thats kind of ..... true :music_whistling::doh:

[Whiskey11]

I'll throw my hat into the arena here... while not against a real player, I've been practicing against a MiG-29S with the AI set to "Excellent" for quite a while and had some serious trouble at first. It's REALLY helped me nail some of the handling quirks of the F-14B.

 

Here is one of the videos with the raw video and the TACView afterwards:

 

I'm always open to criticisms. Some of the ideas I had weren't fully fleshed out and one commenter has already pointed it out (about slower = tighter being a commonly held belief). I definitely need to change this mission up a bit with different aircraft too for more practice!

[falcon_120]

That sounds like real life...F-15 drivers used to refer to the F-14 as the turkey...

 

They covered this nickname in the fighter pilot podcast youtube channel. That nickname has nothing to do with his maneuverability in combat, and it was not F15 pilots who invented it.

 

 

It is covered in the last 10 minutes IIRC.

[CAmastersgt]

Well well

 

It's always the pilot that matters most. Airframes can't do anything without proper input. Many greats in air warfare have attested to the fact a great pilot in an inferior aircraft will usually beat an poor pilot in a superior aircraft. Know your plane and most importantly it's systems.

 

That being said, it is interesting that French pilots rated their toughest opponents in DACT with the US Navy as being the F/A-18C, then the F/A-18E, and lastly the F-14D. (Throwing that out there to see who becomes TRIGGERED, :megalol:)

 

Do I care NO. I love the back and forth banter though. Amusing. Fly well and enjoy.

 

Bring on the F-4 Phantom, it's what we all been really waiting for!!!

[Victory205]

Another "fact" made up on the spot...

[Hummingbird]

Something people seem to forget when trying to compare these birds using mock dogfight testimonies is that these are from highly regulated training sessions where if you cross the operational G limit by so much as 0.1 G there would be an immediate call to knock it off. And seeing as most F-14's flew around with bags their peace time operational limit was probably around 6 G's, hence they were greatly restricted (artificially so) vs the 9 G rated jets they often had to train against. Talked to Royalwin about this (the F15 pilot), and he agrees that this was probably the majority of the reason why F14s weren't really seen as too big a deal in mock training fights, they simply weren't allowed to push their aircraft as hard.

[Buzzles]

Something people seem to forget when trying to compare these birds using mock dogfight testimonies is that these are from highly regulated training sessions where if you cross the operational G limit by so much as 0.1 G there would be an immediate call to knock it off. And seeing as most F-14's flew around with bags their peace time operational limit was probably around 6 G's, hence they were greatly restricted (artificially so) vs the 9 G rated jets they often had to train against. Talked to Royalwin about this (the F15 pilot), and he agrees that this was probably the majority of the reason why F14s weren't really seen as too big a deal in mock training fights, they simply weren't allowed to push their aircraft as hard.

 

I mean, that's obvious.

 

You're talking about a plane iirc that started off with a 7.5g operational rating, dropped fairly quickly to a 6.5g (?) rating for most of its operational life, that was apparently capable of doing up to 10.5g without damage according to Grumman test pilots.

 

Which ever way you look at it, it was handicapped.

 

Suppose this is a good point for Victory to chime in on what limits he was forced to stick with in training/Red Flag etc...

[captain_dalan]

Thank you for the kind words, but you should've seen how Royalwin flew that F15 today, eye watering stuff at times.

 

Took me until exactly what you just said above about the merge speed berfore I could start getting the better of him. Going above that 420-450 kts merely serves to widen your initial 180 too much, and with 50% fuel in a clean bird I'd be unable to slow down fast enough. So for the first few tries over dry land I was basically playing the Eagles game, i.e. high speed high rate turns on the verge of black out. He ate me alive....

 

........You're always welcome Dalan, I'll send you an invite to our discord channel in a PM.

 

I hope you'll be able to fly again soon! :)

 

I hope so too mate. And thanks! :thumbup:

 

BTW, if you recall, i actually pointed out the question quite a while ago, before the F-14 was released. I got into the issue when doing the math for different sweep angles and angles of attack, i quickly realized that (especially at low altitudes), you can easily pull in excess of 8-9g and get your wing sweep mechanism "stuck" as it slows down with g-load. I wanted to know the exact rate of slowing down and eventual stop, but no one at the time answered. And you don't wanna be stuck in a delta configuration while turning and burning. So i figured, it would be best to actually commence high g-turns with a somewhat intermediate wing sweep. That would be usually around 450 KIAS when around 5000ft, going up or down depending on altitude. Alternatively you can use the mach number as a guide, just consult your wing sweep schedule first :thumbup:

[captain_dalan]

That sounds like real life...F-15 drivers used to refer to the F-14 as the turkey...

 

Actually:

 

They covered this nickname in the fighter pilot podcast youtube channel. That nickname has nothing to do with his maneuverability in combat, and it was not F15 pilots who invented it.

 

 

It is covered in the last 10 minutes IIRC.

 

And if that wasn't enough:

 

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/9599/a-tomcat-pilots-early-struggles-to-tame-the-mighty-f-14

 

It's somewhere in the middle of the text.

[Hummingbird]

I mean, that's obvious.

 

You're talking about a plane iirc that started off with a 7.5g operational rating, dropped fairly quickly to a 6.5g (?) rating for most of its operational life, that was apparently capable of doing up to 10.5g without damage according to Grumman test pilots.

 

Yes, when you're not expecting, or even able to, get a new toy or a back up within any reasonable amount of time should you damage one those you already have, then you start getting REAL carebear about things and any excursions from the G limit outside of real combat is seriously frowned upon.

[Hummingbird]

I hope so too mate. And thanks! :thumbup:

 

BTW, if you recall, i actually pointed out the question quite a while ago, before the F-14 was released. I got into the issue when doing the math for different sweep angles and angles of attack, i quickly realized that (especially at low altitudes), you can easily pull in excess of 8-9g and get your wing sweep mechanism "stuck" as it slows down with g-load. I wanted to know the exact rate of slowing down and eventual stop, but no one at the time answered. And you don't wanna be stuck in a delta configuration while turning and burning. So i figured, it would be best to actually commence high g-turns with a somewhat intermediate wing sweep. That would be usually around 450 KIAS when around 5000ft, going up or down depending on altitude. Alternatively you can use the mach number as a guide, just consult your wing sweep schedule first :thumbup:

 

Copy that, however since then we've found out that the mechanism was infact designed to function fine even at 7.5 G's, still going at 4 deg/sec here, which was just 3.5 deg/sec slower than the max 7.5 deg/sec at 1 G in auto mode with a normal load out (15 deg/sec is manual mode max rate). Thus the sweep probably didn't stall until somewhere above 9 G's with most load outs. It was one of the great achievements of the wing box & sweep mechanism design, that it would keep sweeping the wings even under high G loads. Heatblur were quick to correct this in their model as well :)

 

So wing sweep operation actually isn't an issue, the automatic system completely takes care of that :)

 

The real problem in a clean F-14 is actually slowing down if you start turning above 500 knots, i.e. if you don't cut the throttle abit you'll be accelerating or blacking out.

Edited April 3, 2019 by Hummingbird

[royalwin]

And... if you're too fast, the F-14 won't even let you put out the speed brake, right?

[jcdata]

And... if you're too fast, the F-14 won't even let you put out the speed brake, right?

Over 400

 

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[jcdata]

I mean, that's obvious.

 

You're talking about a plane iirc that started off with a 7.5g operational rating, dropped fairly quickly to a 6.5g (?) rating for most of its operational life, that was apparently capable of doing up to 10.5g without damage according to Grumman test pilots.

 

Which ever way you look at it, it was handicapped.

 

Suppose this is a good point for Victory to chime in on what limits he was forced to stick with in training/Red Flag etc...

Bags or tanks on any plane lower the limit during peace time. Putting a them on wing pylons big drag issue as well. Think.. 15, 16, ..18..

 

 

 

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[Victory205]

I mean, that's obvious.

 

You're talking about a plane iirc that started off with a 7.5g operational rating, dropped fairly quickly to a 6.5g (?) rating for most of its operational life, that was apparently capable of doing up to 10.5g without damage according to Grumman test pilots.

 

Which ever way you look at it, it was handicapped.

 

Suppose this is a good point for Victory to chime in on what limits he was forced to stick with in training/Red Flag etc...

 

Objectively speaking, based on the videos I've seen, most of you have no idea as to what you are doing. ;)

Edited April 8, 2019 by Victory205
Waste of my time.

[DoomEngine]

LET THEM FIGHT!

[Hummingbird]

Your words mirror exactly what we're experiencing when pitting the F-14B & F-15C up against each other on our DACT server Victory205, which just goes to show how incredibly well Heatblur modelled the cat (and ED the F-15). Two incredibly close aircraft when it comes to ACM, the Tomcat dominating the horizontal and the Eagle the vertical, albeit neither enough that either one can't momentarily enter the other's realm to gain that vital angle sometimes needed. It is so much fun!

[StandingCow]

We need a Victory205 "sea stories" thread, I love reading this stuff! Or maybe we could talk you into going on Aircraft interviews? I loved Okie's session.

[royalwin]

Well said, Victory!

And I can 100% vouch that F-15 guys were up in front of the Ops Officer for even the slightest over-G, and as he alludes, 9 G's was only allowed symmetrical significantly less rolling, and rarely did we pull over 8-8.5 and only briefly because we couldn't afford to go over and it was all by feel since there is no governor like a 16 or an 18. Not to mention you're looking over your shoulder, not at the instruments, because losing sight was worse than being off by a G.

Engines were detuned for peace time, and still were more powerful that in DCS, this is a game, not a true life simulator, but it's by far the closest thing out there. Heck, our simulators when I flew didn't even have viz at all!

Despite all that, I do love playing this thing :)

[Hummingbird]

For those who didn't see the interviews:

3TdvGZqIuZU

WKA3ITCZt9o

Edited April 3, 2019 by Hummingbird

[Hummingbird]

Alright guys, we got some more tacview replays (courtesy of Galm) here from our last run on the DACT server, enjoy!

 

1) Hummingbird (BRABUS) vs Sgt.Pappy (GalmOne):

I6s2FSdrySs

 

2) Hummingbird (BRABUS) vs Sgt.Pappy (GalmOne):

uj5eTOo_gQI

 

3) Royalwin (Yukon) vs Hummingbird (BRABUS):

-IczOVSBj80

Debrief: yep, I over G'd asymmetrically :doh:

 

4) Royalwin (Yukon) vs Hummingbird (BRABUS):

fBaL93O55Vw

Debrief: Are you winded? Im winded! :wacko:

 

5) Hummingbird (BRABUS) vs Sgt.Pappy (GalmOne):

R6p5vC3fQZ4

Debrief: After some tips'n'tricks of the trade from our native F15 jockey (something silly about eggs n stuff :smilewink: ), Galm catches & smokes me with a beautiful barrel roll reversal and overshoot.

 

Btw, if in some of these videos you at times found yourself screaming "shoot shoot!" at your screen then I understand, the reason I hold off on shooting a lot of times is because I've still yet to entirely adapt to the F14's gun sight.

 

So that's it for now. In the future I'll provide som actual ingame footage from the fights as well. Just gotta get that new GFX card installed so I'm sure the rig can handle recording and playing the game at the same time. Will try some commenting later maybe, depends on how dull I think I sound :P

Edited April 3, 2019 by Hummingbird

[TLTeo]

That was beautiful flying from all of you, thanks for sharing!

[jcdata]

Awesome tracks! Wish we could see speed v G

 

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[Banzaiib]

Objectively speaking, based on the videos I've seen, most of you have no idea as to what you are doing. ;)

 

DCS is also a very artificial world, with lots of gaming and flaws inherent in the core engine. There really is no way to 100% compare aircraft due to variances in the flight models between modules. There are so many data points that just can't be replicated in a sim. It's still fun and worthwhile to participate, but it isn't reality. Just the fact that you can't die makes a huge difference in how you approach an engagement.

 

The Fighter Pilot Podcast had enough wrong that it made me wonder if the guys had really flown the aircraft, or perhaps they brain dumped most of it when they transitioned to the Hornet, or more likely, did the podcast while downing flaming hookers each someone said "uh...".

 

The max trap weight approach speed (you wouldn't land on a carrier with the wings aft, but for comparison) with the wings fully aft was the DLC stowed landing weight plus 60 knots. That's 191 knots. They said 235. Oceana has had a 12000 foot runway for four or five decades, 5R. They said 8000.

 

They mentioned having engine stalls while tanking in the A. I had one at zero airspeed in 1600 plus hours because I moved the throttles off of mil to avoid going out of the top of a working area. It popped three times and recovered. Most A pilots I know never had a motor stall.

 

Their recollection of some of the radar hot modes was off, as you already know.

 

DLC on the A was a vernier control that used all eight spoilers, it wasn't merely off and on, but it was used that way as described in my Landing Tips article. The Turkey Monniker came from the way the jet looked in the groove, and was also a homage to the Grumman TBF Torpedo Bomber, which was also called the Turkey during WWII.

 

We took the tanks off the aircraft within a few days of returning from cruise and put them on just before deploying.

 

There were also counting accelerometers with readouts in the wheel well to record over G events.

 

Really weird stuff from those guys, and I flew my last flight in the thing before any of them joined the Navy.

 

As far as G limits. Essentially, you multiply the Max G limit by the Max "fighting weight" (Max aircraft weight for Max placarded G) to get the total lift structural limit. If you are heavier than the weight at which Max G is permitted, you then divide your actual weight into the max lift allowable weight to ascertain the current G limit. Similar for the rolling G limit.

 

The G limit was originally 7.5 Gs, but for service life it was reduced in peacetime to 6.5. Same with max Mach. It was placarded at 2.34, but peacetime was 1.88. I don't know of a pilot that didn't exceed both. Some would immediately knock it off for a slight over-G (one of my wingman would routinely do this at the beginning of a fight, I don't think that he liked ACM), others would just write it up. Most guys didn't really worry about a symmetric over stress up to 7-7.5 G. Quick inspection and back into the air. Our Vc was so low that you didn't miss having 9 G's to work with really. If you study what governs turn rate and radius, you'll understand.

 

The most I ever pulled was 8.2 during a 1v1 at Topgun. The maneuvering flaps quit working, not sure if that was the cause or not, but we never got them to work again for weeks until finally finding an issue in the CADC computer.

 

Additionally, the F15 guys had to answer to someone if they over G'd. Very different world back then. While cruise and long deployments sucked, we had a helluvalot more fun that the USAF guys did due to their centralized command and heavy scrutiny. They were good, just sort of overmanaged, if that makes sense.

 

The aircraft was a beast in terms of durability. I recall a nitrogen cart slamming into us as the carrier turned into the wind for our squadron to fly off after a medium length cruise. The final checkers disappeared under the wing, conferred, and launched us to the beach (thankfully). We got out and didn't even notice a dent. A student of mine named Brent Jett (future Shuttle Astronaut) drifted right on a touch and go on JFK and took the outer wingtip of an A7 off with his right wing. The SLUF's wings were folded, so Brent ended up with an upturned wingtip embedded in his own wingtip. The Corsair's wing panel was oriented backwards. He diverted, they replaced the Tomcat's wing, and it was flying again in short order. Brent's callsign was "Winglet" after that. He flew the Shuttle twice, but without winglets. They hid all of the A7's while he was in orbit.

 

As a total package, a lower altitudes, with a solid RIO, I'd fight anything in the world at the time in an F14A. The ACM radar modes worked great, the AWG9 was difficult to escape with a good RIO, the missiles were excellent, including the AIM54C in ACM mode.

 

So much more goes into it than anyone outside of the realm really understands. It really can't be duplicated here. Heatblur has done fantastic work with Jester and the cockpit links. It's just that RIO training and techniques are difficult to learn without getting deep into classified information.

 

Since it is never just 1v1, it is a huge advantage to have a second crew member when merged in terms of survivability. We actually joined up on an F15 during Red Flag (after a Fox 2 and guns tracking) and flew fighting wing off of him for a couple of minutes before he noticed us. His head was buried in his radar. We played the tape at the mass debrief. Turns out he was their squadron CO. Arrogant as hell in the debrief until we played the tape.

 

I thought that the F15 was a slightly better aircraft overall in a visual air to air than the F14A, until the jamming started, and equal or worse than the F14B. We had a lot of fun fighting F15's, Mirage 2000's, etc. out of Deccimomannu because we brought an EA6B along. Hell, we'd just bomb your airfield at night with Tomahawks while we played cards in the wardroom, and fight anything that was left in the morning after a nice breakfast. ;) The A6 guys would wait for weather than you couldn't drive a truck in and sneak in and destroy everything worthy of a bomb run.

 

The biggest thing that the later aircraft had (including the F14D, of which 55 were built) was medium PRF and NCTR. That helped overland and with BVR ROE. AIM9X was huge, and AMRAAM was big for the non AIM54 aircraft. Then came stealth, and nothing else matters. The F22 and F35 are both awesome aircraft that are essentially unbeatable if they marginally do their jobs.

 

See Okie Nance's Aircrew interview on the F14's capabilities 1v1, especially in the B. He describes the reality very, very well. One of the guys who helped train me early on and someone that I have always respected as a pilot and a man.

 

Just the way it is, despite what you may have heard. It's why I don't worry about DCS online metrics at all.

 

That was an enjoyable post to read. Thank you for sharing, and I'm sure I speak for the majority of us when I say that we could read a whole book of stuff like this.