How do manage the throttle during air refueling?

[lee1hy]

My FA-18 air refueling has a high success rate, but F16 air refueling is very difficult. The throttle response seems to be different from FA-18.

 

I can't find a YouTube F16 A2A refuel in-cockpit video, so I'm curious about throttle management after a refueling after contact

 

 

increased air refueling success after setting curve, but difficult to maintain throttle distance

 

sometime boom operator is weird

Edited October 21, 2019 by lee1hy

[mvsgas]

Here is a 360° video, you can pan the camera around and see the pilot throttle movements.

[Chelco]

The following video by RedKite has a stick, rudder and throttle indicator in it.

 

 

Cheers,

[Shimmergloom667]

Very carefully

[Steph21]

Also remember:

If you move out of position in only one direction, lights on both columns may change. For example, if you move down, you increase the boom angle and will get a GO UP indication. In addition, you may get a GO FORWARD indication because the pure downward movement has extended the boom. Understand this relationship when making corrections, e.g., if you have both the GO UP and GO FORWARD lights, you may only have to move up a little to extinguish both of them.

[EvanWeeks]

I've found that throttle changes also slightly affect my vertical position. Throttle down, FPM dips and I start dropping away from the tanker. Throttle up, the FPM climbs. You have to manage it all as one animal.

[Wicked.-]

Here is a 360° video, you can pan the camera around and see the pilot throttle movements.

 

Great video Gas. You're making me want to bust out my old MVS-Wicked banners lol.

[DerekSpeare]

I use a curve on my throttle so that it's less responsive at lower settings. This means that it is "not as sensitive". Make the curve for your throttle look like this curve...

 

 

 

[mvsgas]

Great video Gas. You're making me want to bust out my old MVS-Wicked banners lol.

 

Go for it.

[sirrah]

I'm a bit confused after reading this thread...

 

I thought that, due to early access, the throttle axis sensitivity in the Viper isn't correct at the moment (this was discussed in the Thrustmaster sub forum).

 

Especially low rpm throttle adjustments are extremely sensitive in current state. When I give ±5mm throttle travel input from idle, engine rpm shoots up to over 80% (with default un-curved axis tuning). Although I never operated the F-16 engine in real life, it seems highly unlikely that this is correct.

 

So... Is this a known issue, or will this not be changed?

 

 

(If ED is not going to adjust this, I will have to drastically tune my throttle axis with some major curving)

 

 

Side note: I own both the Cougar and Warthog throttle and both suffer from this sensitivity issue, although on the Cougar it's feels more extreme as it has a smaller physical travel. In for instance the Hornet I don't have this problem

[Svend_Dellepude]

Might be an engine issue if any. If you look at your virtual throttle while operating the real one, it looks pretty much 1:1.

With the WH throttle it's a bit sensitive at low rpm, but not really a problem IMHO. I can refuel and land without problems.

[RedVonHammer]

I use a curve on my throttle so that it's less responsive at lower settings. This means that it is "not as sensitive". Make the curve for your throttle look like this curve...

 

 

 

 

I tried user set curve but only get a bunch of seizmic activity-style bumps across the whole curve.

In Rise of Flight we could draw and set the curve EXACTLY how we wanted it, not the case here.

[Tenkom]

I do it with the airbrakes out. This puts the engine in a slightly higher and more responsive rpm region.

[Skyracer]

CW lemon the former f-16 pilot said it was much easier IRL. Everything is easier IRL expect pull 9gs.

[sobek]

CW lemon

 

 

Lemoine, not lemon.

[mcnabb100]

I tried user set curve but only get a bunch of seizmic activity-style bumps across the whole curve.

In Rise of Flight we could draw and set the curve EXACTLY how we wanted it, not the case here.

 

I'm at work so I cant reference the setup, so my terms may not match 100%.

 

I believe if you set the throttle axis to "slider" and then adjust the "curvature" you should be able to get a good smooth curve.

[SmoglessPanic]

Lemoine, not lemon.

 

LOL

 

This sounds like auto correct out on the war path...hehe Lemon.

[Theodore42]

If you're attempting a standard AR (30,000ft 310KCAS) then you'll find it MUCH easier after this latest patch. Pretty sure ED corrected some stores drag, as I haven't noticed a difference on my clean configuration but with stores loaded I'm getting a lot more acceleration at high altitudes/speeds which helps AR a LOT!

[statrekmike]

While it might end up sounding dismissive, a lot of this sounds like a practice issue more than anything else. It is true that it is probably harder to do in a sim (as Lemoine pointed out) but that is mostly because we can't really feel what the airplane is doing. There is simply no force-feedback system that can adequately give us the necessary effect.

 

When I started the process of learning to refuel the F-16, it was exceptionally difficult (even after getting quite comfortable with refueling in the Hornet, Tomcat, and Harrier). The throttle in particular was very tricky to deal with and it was genuinely VERY frustrating. In the end, I really just needed to do what I did when I first learned to refuel in the Hornet. I put in a bit of practice each day until eventually it just starts to all "click" into place.

 

As far as setting actual curves on the throttle. I really wouldn't do that. It will make for inconsistent throttle response which will only make things harder for you in other areas. It is better to have no curve on the throttle and just put the practice in until you get the feel for it.

 

Keep in mind, I also use a Warthog and while it was super frustrating to practice early on, it got better. Just keep at it and it will eventually work out.

[Tomsk]

While it might end up sounding dismissive, a lot of this sounds like a practice issue more than anything else.

 

I agree, I don’t actually think it’s “harder” than the Hornet but it definitely is different. I found I just had to practice a little every day until I got a feel for it.

[Notso]

While it might end up sounding dismissive, a lot of this sounds like a practice issue more than anything else. It is true that it is probably harder to do in a sim (as Lemoine pointed out) but that is mostly because we can't really feel what the airplane is doing. There is simply no force-feedback system that can adequately give us the necessary effect.

 

When I started the process of learning to refuel the F-16, it was exceptionally difficult (even after getting quite comfortable with refueling in the Hornet, Tomcat, and Harrier). The throttle in particular was very tricky to deal with and it was genuinely VERY frustrating. In the end, I really just needed to do what I did when I first learned to refuel in the Hornet. I put in a bit of practice each day until eventually it just starts to all "click" into place.

 

As far as setting actual curves on the throttle. I really wouldn't do that. It will make for inconsistent throttle response which will only make things harder for you in other areas. It is better to have no curve on the throttle and just put the practice in until you get the feel for it.

 

Keep in mind, I also use a Warthog and while it was super frustrating to practice early on, it got better. Just keep at it and it will eventually work out.

 

Totally agree. I don’t think its harder, just different on the boom. I find I have to constantly jockey the throttle on the hornet to stay on the hose, like a LOT. Goose it and back, goose it and back and you’re more conscious of just maintaining a position by using the aircraft references. On the boom with the F-16, it feels like more subtle throttle movements are required and its easy to get fixated on watching the lights rather than just maintaining a relative position. The lights should be a fine tune while flying formation in a specific spot is the real key IMHO.

 

Is also agree that a bit of speed brake out will help with the throttle response unless you’re already heavyweight.

[fudabidu]

Flying at low RPM with a light payload can be tricky, but I didn't find it difficult to adjust to (TM Cougar, no curve)

 

Too slow? Just give the throttle a "slight tap" forwards.

Too fast now? Pull the throttle back "half a slight tap".

Keep doing this until you're refueled.

[Xavven]

Flying at low RPM with a light payload can be tricky, but I didn't find it difficult to adjust to (TM Cougar, no curve)

 

Too slow? Just give the throttle a "slight tap" forwards.

Too fast now? Pull the throttle back "half a slight tap".

Keep doing this until you're refueled.

 

This is great advice.

 

Also, you have to anticipate what your current throttle setting is going to do to the aircraft and proactively adjust.

 

For example, let's say you're sliding forward too much. You reduce throttle, of course. This slows your rate of forward movement, until eventually you come to a stop (relative to the tanker). If you do nothing at this point, you are going to start sliding backwards. So usually you need to increase your throttle the moment you come to a stop so that you stay stopped. You'll get a feel for how much with practice.

 

But you will never stay comfortable. Even if you are perfectly still right now, you're taking on 1000's of lbs of fuel and that very fact changes things. I notice that as I get fuel I need more and more throttle on average, but in extremely tiny increments over time.

[Notso]

This is great advice.

 

Also, you have to anticipate what your current throttle setting is going to do to the aircraft and proactively adjust.

 

For example, let's say you're sliding forward too much. You reduce throttle, of course. This slows your rate of forward movement, until eventually you come to a stop (relative to the tanker). If you do nothing at this point, you are going to start sliding backwards. So usually you need to increase your throttle the moment you come to a stop so that you stay stopped. You'll get a feel for how much with practice.

 

But you will never stay comfortable. Even if you are perfectly still right now, you're taking on 1000's of lbs of fuel and that very fact changes things. I notice that as I get fuel I need more and more throttle on average, but in extremely tiny increments over time.

 

Yep. Also note that as you get heavier - your AOA will change to a more nose high attitude (higher AOA) because your speed is remaining constant. So you have to account for that as well.

[TVC Pilot]

I'm having a lot of difficulty refueling, I'm pretty new and have practiced flying off the tanker wing for a while. That seems to be getting better. Problems arise when I open the AR door and the gains change in the FCS. Then I'm all over the place!!