Is DCS worth it with just a normal hotas?

[Fri13]

Hey all,

 

I'm interested in getting DCS Worlds F18 module and learning it, coming from X-Plane 11s more complex addons.

 

I have good PC with a Rift S which I built for simming, but only the T16000m FCS Hotas without rudder pedals. I don't want to buy rudder pedals just yet (a bit limited on space) but I know this is an incredibly detailed simulation so, how would I fare with the F18 using the paddle rudder on the throttle + VR? I am guessing it'll still be a good immersive experience?

 

I'm mainly looking to (eventually) fly the multiplayer coop servers, and blue flag events. I know choppers are a no go, same with WW2 birds and things like the F14.

 

Thanks

 

For a F-18 it aint a problem, maybe little challenging in some critical moments and special events, but you manage.

 

The rudder paddle on throttle does just fine with some curves.

 

If you consider helicopters, then the pedals are a must.

[deathbysybian]

Or bind only real HOTAS functions. use Oculus Touch Controllers and immersion is greatest....

 

One can start to value each aircraft only when flying it as it was designed, without cheating by using computer features to bind what where ever.

 

Touch controllers for hotas? I can't think of anything less real feeling and a floaty stick.

[Fri13]

Touch controllers for hotas? I can't think of anything less real feeling and a floaty stick.

 

No. People does have these false ideas that VR controllers are used as virtual HOTAS. No, the VR controllers are used as a computer mouse. You grab one and you move your virtual hand inside the cockpit and you can push and rotate buttons and switches.

 

So far it was only for the Oculus Touch Controllers, but there is now a third party controller from "MilesD": https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=218861

 

That kit is little pricy, $175 + shipping (max $26) + taxes. But that "PointCTRL" is at this moment likely the best option for the cockpit interactions when it comes to the natural use (you can operate your HOTAS without thinking that you have the controllers tied to your fingers, and then just point the wanted button/switch and press one of the tree buttons next to your finger attached controller as left/right mouse buttons and wheel.).

 

That is the main difference to the Oculus Touch Controllers, you just move your hand and click and then you grab again your HOTAS. While with Oculus you need to grab the controller first from your lap (easy and simple) and then you can do stuff, and then return it back to lap and grab then your HOTAS.

 

Either way is just superior to anything in DCS, be it binding all the possible things to your HOTAS or grabbing and using a mouse/touchpad to move a pointer around a cockpit.

 

There is a major immersion effect when you are required to move your own physical hand around in a virtual cockpit to press and rotate widgets, compared that you keep your hand on mouse/touchpad and move a cursor, or that you just press HOTAS combinations from the memory.

 

You will quickly learn that every aircrafts cockpit designs has their purposes, their limitations and operation procedures. Like when you are pulling a 6G in a dogfight, you are not going to move your hands away from HOTAS to adjust something, like you can do with a modifiers and dozens of other functions in the HOTAS that shouldn't be there. In heat of the ground strafe, you are again not going to move hands around the cockpit to do things.

The requirement to take off your hands from HOTAS and move hands around is what makes things far more immersive.

 

And that is why the Oculus hand tracking for Oculus Quest is such a waited feature for Rift S, as you wouldn't need any controller to get your virtual hands in DCS cockpit to be detected and moved. You would just move hand and operate the cockpit and grab again the HOTAS.

This is as well why ED added the VR glove support (beta AFAIK) for DCS from specific (CaptoGlove) manufacturer.

 

For years people have expected ED to implement a support to Leap Motion in VR, attaching it to the HMD and you would get the virtual hand to cockpit to use stuff.

 

 

Most of the modules in the DCS doesn't have a complex HOTAS designs, meaning that you can easily come up with a simple HOTAS to fly them. Yet you need to use multipliers to some extend to get features in, but going too far is just asking problems.

Why in VR it would be at this moment cheapest and easiest way to get hand tracking via Leap Motion (cost like 20€ couple years ago!) and same way to make simple HOTAS systems very effective as your main controllers are your hands and you are not memorizing combinations etc, but you actually look at the wanted setting and adjust it!

[deathbysybian]

No. People does have these false ideas that VR controllers are used as virtual HOTAS. No, the VR controllers are used as a computer mouse. You grab one and you move your virtual hand inside the cockpit and you can push and rotate buttons and switches.

 

So far it was only for the Oculus Touch Controllers, but there is now a third party controller from "MilesD": https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=218861

 

That kit is little pricy, $175 + shipping (max $26) + taxes. But that "PointCTRL" is at this moment likely the best option for the cockpit interactions when it comes to the natural use (you can operate your HOTAS without thinking that you have the controllers tied to your fingers, and then just point the wanted button/switch and press one of the tree buttons next to your finger attached controller as left/right mouse buttons and wheel.).

 

That is the main difference to the Oculus Touch Controllers, you just move your hand and click and then you grab again your HOTAS. While with Oculus you need to grab the controller first from your lap (easy and simple) and then you can do stuff, and then return it back to lap and grab then your HOTAS.

 

Either way is just superior to anything in DCS, be it binding all the possible things to your HOTAS or grabbing and using a mouse/touchpad to move a pointer around a cockpit.

 

There is a major immersion effect when you are required to move your own physical hand around in a virtual cockpit to press and rotate widgets, compared that you keep your hand on mouse/touchpad and move a cursor, or that you just press HOTAS combinations from the memory.

 

You will quickly learn that every aircrafts cockpit designs has their purposes, their limitations and operation procedures. Like when you are pulling a 6G in a dogfight, you are not going to move your hands away from HOTAS to adjust something, like you can do with a modifiers and dozens of other functions in the HOTAS that shouldn't be there. In heat of the ground strafe, you are again not going to move hands around the cockpit to do things.

The requirement to take off your hands from HOTAS and move hands around is what makes things far more immersive.

 

And that is why the Oculus hand tracking for Oculus Quest is such a waited feature for Rift S, as you wouldn't need any controller to get your virtual hands in DCS cockpit to be detected and moved. You would just move hand and operate the cockpit and grab again the HOTAS.

This is as well why ED added the VR glove support (beta AFAIK) for DCS from specific (CaptoGlove) manufacturer.

 

For years people have expected ED to implement a support to Leap Motion in VR, attaching it to the HMD and you would get the virtual hand to cockpit to use stuff.

 

 

Most of the modules in the DCS doesn't have a complex HOTAS designs, meaning that you can easily come up with a simple HOTAS to fly them. Yet you need to use multipliers to some extend to get features in, but going too far is just asking problems.

Why in VR it would be at this moment cheapest and easiest way to get hand tracking via Leap Motion (cost like 20€ couple years ago!) and same way to make simple HOTAS systems very effective as your main controllers are your hands and you are not memorizing combinations etc, but you actually look at the wanted setting and adjust it!

 

The problem is the real world does not match the cockpit and there are obstacles to interacting with the switches by hand. I use the face-mouse for most of the switches.There are a lot of buttons on an F18 hotas! I do map some things that are hard to reach / behind me or straight down that kink my neck to look at.

[Vazuul]

Yes! DCS is very well made and worth the time.

[Bagpipe]

No. People does have these false ideas that VR ....

 

 

Dude, the OP's question was can i get into DCS with just a basic HOTAS, the answer is always yes.

As for twisting stick with helicopters? You must not be using the trimmer correctly. Watch real Mi8 pilots train in full sims, all you can hear is the clunk of the trimmer every few seconds when maneuvering

[t00nsoldier]

Hey all,

 

I'm interested in getting DCS Worlds F18 module and learning it, coming from X-Plane 11s more complex addons.

 

I have good PC with a Rift S which I built for simming, but only the T16000m FCS Hotas without rudder pedals. I don't want to buy rudder pedals just yet (a bit limited on space) but I know this is an incredibly detailed simulation so, how would I fare with the F18 using the paddle rudder on the throttle + VR? I am guessing it'll still be a good immersive experience?

 

I'm mainly looking to (eventually) fly the multiplayer coop servers, and blue flag events. I know choppers are a no go, same with WW2 birds and things like the F14.

 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

Your answer is yes.:pilotfly:

[SC86]

I have been using a Saitek X52 (not Pro) its been very good, but I never used the software as the software wasn't working too well, ever... now the joystick is having a bit of an issue with the rudder swivel, and at least on the ground the planes are drifting to the right and making me look bad. Really though, I want something new and reliable that will last for a long time.

 

I tried the X56 but the programming wasn't working well and the tracking in the software showed the joystick was moving all over the place when centred and the joystick was sitting still.

 

I'm not looking to invest so much over the years that I play flight sims, but I want something that will be fun and somewhat realistic. plus the more switches and buttons I have assigned on my Hotas, I can assign less essential stuff to the keyboard.

 

Just yesterday I ordered a Thrustmaster Warthog throttle and stick. I hope it is worth the money.

 

I would say that if you have VR and you are committed you should be ok, you can always use some button to assign the pedals too.

[BuzzU]

Whether you need rudder pedals reminds me of my racing. I use a $1000 Fanatec setup as does most of the guys I race with. Except for one guy who uses the keyboard and he beats all of us.

 

Sometimes life is cruel.

[Andy1966]

Hi and welcome. a lot of people that fly DCS don't use the expensive equipment, or rudder pedals. DCS producer Wags doesn't use rudder pedals. I used a 5 year old TM Hotas X when I started DCS 4 or five years ago, and just about 6 months ago bought a warthog. so in short no you don't need rudder pedals to fly well in DCS, and your 1600 should serve you well too.

Enjoy, the learning curve is steep! :pilotfly::joystick::thumbup:

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

The only issue with some cheaper throttles I noticed, is that some have a detent at about halfway into their range of motion (equates to 88% rpm ish), which can be quite annoying for precision manoeuvres such as aerial refuelling and formation flying.

[Bagpipe]

The only issue with some cheaper throttles I noticed, is that some have a detent at about halfway into their range of motion (equates to 88% rpm ish), which can be quite annoying for precision manoeuvres such as aerial refuelling and formation flying.

 

Yes, the Hotas X has this issue, the T16000 which you have i believe does not as it is a linear throttle as opposed to my arc throttle which has the detent in the middile to stop it swaying about. Can be annoying if the sweet spot is right next to the detent :thumbup:

[slickdevel]

I use a tm16000 that was picked up when I got into DCS. It's a bit frail but works well. I have a driving wheel and pedals, the pedals work fine for brakes. I only fly the WW2 birds but find that I can have almost all/all the necessary binds on the HOTAS. The keyboard is only used for chat really!

[Fri13]

The problem is the real world does not match the cockpit and there are obstacles to interacting with the switches by hand.

 

That is the problem of the everyones own "simpit". If someone has a table on their lap etc, it is their problem.

 

I have nothing else than a stick and the throttle on custom made ejection seat. Everything else is just air, as I designed and made the chair for the VR purpose so there is no obstacles around me. I don't have a screen or mug holders or anything anywhere else. So when I look example the Hornet throttle, that is the space it is allocating. In Su-27 and Mig-15 it is little different as with Harrier, but that general area of the throttle is that physical throttle anyways.

 

Now when the F-16C is in the DCS, it generates a new problem as it it would be nice sometimes to get the stick to the right side for immersion. But to do so just for F-16C from all others, it is too much effort for one stick. And it would require to actually buy a second stick just for the F-16C, make a attachment point for the stick so it can be quickly slided in or out and connect the USB to computer. It should be so easy and simple that it takes just 10 seconds to do the swap. But if primary stick is with extension, it is not at all ideal to pull stick out from between legs and slide in to side, if it requires to as well take a allen key and loosen the grip extension two bolts and remove it, while the stick is parked for that. Now it is a 1 minute operation instead 10 seconds and just too much hassle. Now think about what it is with the helicopters, to fly those you want non-centering stick with good extension so you can fly with fingertips without thinking at all. But then for the fighters you want hard centering force and good centering feeling so you can fly with the trim hat only. To do that swap you actually would need to remove the stick base, open it up and swap the cams and springs. Now it is not 10 second swap but a 30 min operation.

 

And all these are building up that WHAT you are going to fly and when. With the last one it is more like "This week I fly just helicopters", while with the second one is that you fly F-16 for that day or maybe at least few hours. While owning multiple sticks and ready to slide in attachment and just plugging the USB cable to front of the PC case top USB ports is the easiest, but most costly setup.

 

The first world problems.... Or dedication for the hobby...

 

But now considering that if one owns a cheap 100€ HOTAS vs someone who owns a 800-1000€ HOTAS, that other can easily buy even multiple ones and make custom attachments for quick swapping, while other doesn't really might not want to buy 3x of the HOTAS.

 

I use the face-mouse for most of the switches.There are a lot of buttons on an F18 hotas! I do map some things that are hard to reach / behind me or straight down that kink my neck to look at.

 

That is the problem in all current VR headsets, the narrow FOV and blurry peripheral vision that you can't so easily look behind a ejection seat and make adjustments. That is the physical world benefit that you do not even look at the controls example in F-16C when you are adjusting a roll trim, you just place your hand back there and you make the adjustment. That is not possible in VR as you have no physical knob to adjust.

 

So what you need to do is to rotate the head and look at there when you do the adjustment. And then it can be problem to do adjustment while you are observing the HUD that what is the output of your input. In such case as the VR is the limitation, a special case can be made that it is binded to HOTAS so you can do it with physical button while you look at the HOTAS as that is the way it can be done in real world.

 

But all the other things like flaps, landing gear, master modes etc that requires you to take off your hand and push/press/flip things, those are not put on HOTAS as you are meant to move a hand and there is no limitation for its purpose.

That is the immersion creator that if you do a mistake like you forget to switch to a fuel page in MFCD when you are just to get connected to a air tanker, you don't take your hands off from HOTAS to do so because you are flying in tight formation with a tanker. Someone can bind it to a HOTAS so they can just press a combo or make a voice command, but that is unrealistic and breaks the immersion how the real aircraft is operated.

[Fri13]

Whether you need rudder pedals reminds me of my racing. I use a $1000 Fanatec setup as does most of the guys I race with. Except for one guy who uses the keyboard and he beats all of us.

 

Sometimes life is cruel.

 

LOL

 

Yeah.... For some it is the experience they pay for (expensive HOTAS setups, full simcockpits etc) and for some it is the gaming itself so they perform well in it, no matter the controller.

 

Like there are people who fly with a XBOX controller... I once made a Steam Controller profile for a Su-25T, works great, completely easy to fly and operate in the "Simulator" mode (not the "Arcade mode") but that was only possible because limited functions needed to put. But then again, I think a full clickable cockpit would be easier to do as Steam Controller can be set so that you fly by turning the controller in your hands (it has Gyro so it works as your stick and pedals), and you can set behind modifier a either one of the touchpads so you turn your head with one mode and then click it and now it moves mouse cursor to click things. Add there a TrackIR and you wouldn't need to use it to look around but just move sometimes the mouse.... So far more easier than Su-25T that needs all to be binded as buttons and axis etc...

 

The only problem I have found in TM.16000 stick is that its other side of 6 buttons are inaccessible in fast situations. But using them as master modes etc makes things again easier with it.

[Bob_Bushman]

I have a virpil hotas myself, but I don't think there is a single thing that I can do that anyone of my friends with a 5+ year old Saitek, or a t16000k wouldn't be able to do right along side me.

[BitMaster]

I had a complete setup for sims back in the 90s and Flanker 2.x era, then paused and threw it all away as it was half worn and also gameport bound. When I got back into flying with DCS alll I had were 2 twiststicks, a Logitech Freedom cordless and a MSFFB2, thought it was meehh but after a week or so it really worked great with the Ka-50 and P-51D, my first modules back then. 3 years later I got a complete WH Hotas again and pedals too.

 

You can start cheap and work your way up as skills improve over time.

[flameoutme]

Is the switch twist superior to the paddles on the throttle? I thought the paddles would be better as they allow movement independent of the stick.

 

I have the same as you. The twist on the joystick died, so I started using the paddles on the throttle, and I found after getting used to it that I liked it a lot more.

 

Also, a month or so ago I bought the rudder, and have since put it away for another day. I had so much better control with the paddles. Maybe I just need to give it time...

[Bob_Bushman]

Took me about two weeks of near daily session to get dialed in with pedals and that was coming from just using one of the hatd on my stick for yaw, no twist, but there is absolutely no going back now.

 

I find when adding a fully new interface you get an immediate "oh no this is wrong" impulse.

 

You would have to decide if it is wrong on a personal level.

I chose myself to give it a chance for a week or so and then make a decicions.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Bob_Bushman

[Gman109]

I see a few people said NO to the OP question - all opinions are valid here, and I understand why someone would say No, and that a "proper" full HOTAS is almost a requirement for DCS. I said in my first response that the OP would be fine with the setup he mentioned, but it is true he would benefit in the future with a better hotas setup.

 

 

To that end, I really highly recommend searching various used markets for a new DCS player like the OP, once he's ready, wiling, and able to get himself into a higher end HOTAS. I've collected hotas since the 1990s, and have several dozen hotas set ups as well as a bunch of stand alone sticks/throttles I've been sent for review and/or bought over the years. I have all the new VKB/Virpil models, 6 custom rudders and 4 factory peds, and will have 2 Hotas/Sticks more once the VKB GF 3/F14 setup is on sale, and my RealSim base gets here.

 

 

Based on this experience, IMO the best bet for a new pilot like the OP is to find himself a good used set of CH Products F16 Combat/fighter stick, throttle, and pedals. They aren't absolutely ideal, or the best now, but as an upgrade from the OP's current setup, are an excellent step up, and can be found for very good deals. I've picked off 2 full CH setups in the last year from the sources I check daily here in Canada, one was a F16 Fighterstick/CH throttle combo for $40 CAD, and they were new, as in brand new and not touched (wife's husband had left her and left his PC gaming stuff behind with the house contents). I've seen CH pedals in good condition for $50 CAD. Anyhow, point being, the OP will be able to find something like this with a bit of patience and searching as well, and is again why I strongly suggest searching used markets. CH Products are a good used option, as their price is usually pretty good, and the quality and longevity is good as well. Pre 2006 CH stuff is actually better than the newer stuff, as one CH was bought out that year it went from a company of caring sim workers to a large place that has their stuff made in a mass production company.

[Svsmokey]

I see a few people said NO to the OP question - all opinions are valid here, and I understand why someone would say No, and that a "proper" full HOTAS is almost a requirement for DCS. I said in my first response that the OP would be fine with the setup he mentioned, but it is true he would benefit in the future with a better hotas setup.

 

 

To that end, I really highly recommend searching various used markets for a new DCS player like the OP, once he's ready, wiling, and able to get himself into a higher end HOTAS. I've collected hotas since the 1990s, and have several dozen hotas set ups as well as a bunch of stand alone sticks/throttles I've been sent for review and/or bought over the years. I have all the new VKB/Virpil models, 6 custom rudders and 4 factory peds, and will have 2 Hotas/Sticks more once the VKB GF 3/F14 setup is on sale, and my RealSim base gets here.

 

 

Based on this experience, IMO the best bet for a new pilot like the OP is to find himself a good used set of CH Products F16 Combat/fighter stick, throttle, and pedals. They aren't absolutely ideal, or the best now, but as an upgrade from the OP's current setup, are an excellent step up, and can be found for very good deals. I've picked off 2 full CH setups in the last year from the sources I check daily here in Canada, one was a F16 Fighterstick/CH throttle combo for $40 CAD, and they were new, as in brand new and not touched (wife's husband had left her and left his PC gaming stuff behind with the house contents). I've seen CH pedals in good condition for $50 CAD. Anyhow, point being, the OP will be able to find something like this with a bit of patience and searching as well, and is again why I strongly suggest searching used markets. CH Products are a good used option, as their price is usually pretty good, and the quality and longevity is good as well. Pre 2006 CH stuff is actually better than the newer stuff, as one CH was bought out that year it went from a company of caring sim workers to a large place that has their stuff made in a mass production company.

 

+1 on CH ! Last year i gave my still-working-perfectly 12-year-old stick to my son-in-law , only because I needed more Hotas buttons for DCS .

[BuzzU]

I had a whole CH setup as my first HOTAS. I used it for 6 years without a spec of trouble. Gave it to a buddy and he's still using it. The old ones were bombproof.

[Bob_Bushman]

On the contrary my experience with ch is not the same as yours.

 

I got my ch hotas new in 2015 or so, from day one the pots where spiking and needed fairly large deadzones to not wobble all over the place,

 

And three hats combining the throttle and stick often needed multiple presses to engage.

 

I don't know what happened to CH but they aren't what they where and quite frankly I know consider their lineup as utterly abandoned and cannot recommend them to anyone.

 

From what I gather the old CH kit is rock solid, but anything newer than 10 years or so are almost in line with pre Logitech saitek's.

[Svsmokey]

Sorry to hear of your troubles . My "new" CH Hotas is almost two years old , and everything works flawlessly . It replaced the Mad Catz-era X-52 i bought new and used for less than 6 months .

[BlackLightning]

I have used a T16000M standalone joystick for three years before buying the kit mentioned in my signature.

After all, the twist grip has an analog axis, like the paddles on our TM throttle, so it's playable.

You could use the twist for the rudder, the paddles for differential braking and the knob for both brakes.

 

I just want to warn you that I and other people have experienced some troubles getting used to rudder pedals after having developed the muscle memory for the twist grip, so consider this if you think that in the future you may switch to pedals.

There are two problems:

• The obvious one: when you want to use the pedals you instinctively twist the grip instead.

• The fact that you will push the pedals in the opposite direction. If you want to turn to the right, for instance, you will turn the grip clockwise by pushing with your wrist to the left. With the pedals, instead, you would push with your right foot and the left pedal would come aft like if it was being pulled. The pedals, therefore, will sort of rotate anticlockwise.

Because of this, maybe it would be better if you inverted the axis of the twist/paddle.

 

You should also consider that my cheap model of pedals are small, weight little and work fine after one year of casual usage, so you could buy them and keep them off the floor when not in use, like I do.

 

You should also consider that probably, if you will ever fly a real plane (I guess that you don't, like probably most of us) being used to pedals should help you.