Dogfighting in the F-14

[DCS FIGHTER PILOT]

As it stands right now, the F-14 is the best dog fighter in the simulator. It can just about out turn and out perform anything with wings (with correct flap settings that is). My question is, is this realistic? Was the F-14 really that good in a dogfight or is the flight data a bit skewed on Heatblurs end? I do indeed hope that the Flight model is correct.

[Nexus-6]

According to Heatblur's SMEs, it's as close as you can get.

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[captain_dalan]

As it stands right now, the F-14 is the best dog fighter in the simulator. It can just about out turn and out perform anything with wings (with correct flap settings that is). My question is, is this realistic? Was the F-14 really that good in a dogfight or is the flight data a bit skewed on Heatblurs end? I do indeed hope that the Flight model is correct.

 

You can if the other guys lets you.

Exploit the full flaps and above 250 KIAS you are most likely to jam them. No wing sweep for you anymore. Otherwise she's as good in a turn as all the other 4th gen planes are. It's just that quite a big portion of the population out there, aren't really that good in a dogfight. And yes, pilots in DCS are a bit too happy to g-loc, so it robs some of the AC from the core of their envelope.

 

But, in case you are all right with thrashing your plane like that (disabling the wing sweep mechanism is a worthy sacrifice on an air-quake server), HB are "soon TM" going to implement added drag for the flaps at higher air speeds, and then all you'll be getting is the flap damage and no added turn rate.

[S. Low]

The F-18 is possibly under powered and so it is robbed of its strength in a gun fight, which is low and slow. The DCS F-18 can't really go low and slow like it is supposed to, according to F-18 pilots that have commented on this sim. If you listen to the Fighter Pilot Podcast, Jello has commented that he has done training dog fights in his F-18 against F-16s, 15s, and 14s and had victories against them all. As long as you fly your jet's strengths against your opponent's weaknesses, you can win.

 

Listening to this podcast there's been a lot of comments from pilots in dogfights saying they did a maneuver to purposely use the enemy jet's visibility to escape line of sight and surprise them. So as long as your jet is relatively capable, you can win with knowledge and skill.

[Rokkett]

I would also add that IRL there was a perception the F-14 was not as good at BFM because, among other reasons, most would have been flown against F-14A's (the most prolific of the type) which was hamstrung by underpowered, compressor-stall prone engines, and also a 6.5G limit imposed by the USN to promote longevity of the limited number of airframes.

 

 

In DCS, we (currently) have the F-14B with the more powerful engines that do not have to be nursed, and there is no imposed G limit - one can pull as many G's until the wings rip off, without fear of a down aircraft needing over-G inspection, and replacement of a limited number of expensive parts, and a chewing out by the chief and/or CO.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Rokkett

[Tiger-II]

The hardest part is flying correctly.

 

Too many pilots "yank and bank" who, against someone more tuned to their aircraft, will die quickly.

[vadupleix]

These two graphs are measured by someone else on this forum, in a thread about F16 FM (sorry I can’t remember his ID, I saved them to my phone a while ago)

 

It basically shows that, quantitively, how F14 dominates everyone else, especially when low on energy.

[eatthis]

These two graphs are measured by someone else on this forum, in a thread about F16 FM (sorry I can’t remember his ID, I saved them to my phone a while ago)

 

It basically shows that, quantitively, how F14 dominates everyone else, especially when low on energy.

 

clean isnt massively realistic though, id love to see that graph with a few missiles on, also turn the overg limiter off for the hornet too

[Steel Jaw]

The F14 is a fleet interceptor. It is NOT a dog fighter. Pilots being equal, the Hornet and Viper ought to able to spank the Tomcat close in.

[TLTeo]

The F14 is a fleet interceptor. It is NOT a dog fighter. Pilots being equal, the Hornet and Viper ought to able to spank the Tomcat close in.

 

 

The Hornet and Viper's pimary role is as air to ground plaftorms, NOT as dogfighters. The F-86 should be able to spank both close in.

 

See what I did there?

[eatthis]

The Hornet and Viper's pimary role is as air to ground plaftorms, NOT as dogfighters. The F-86 should be able to spank both close in.

 

See what I did there?

 

the viper wqas designed specifically to be an amazing dogfighter

[TLTeo]

Yes, but that is not what it evolved into. Claming "aircraft X is designed primarily for Y therefore is bad at Z" is ridicolous. One could even reword that post into "the Tomcat was designed as a fleet defender and therefore is a terrible strike aircraft", and it would be just as wrong...nevermind the fact that the very first claim is wrong anyway, and the Tomcat was indeed designed to excel in dogfights.

[QuiGon]

also turn the overg limiter off for the hornet too

Which isn't very realistic either.

[FlankerKiller]

Umm, I’m not sure what people are getting at here. The Tomcat has massive wings, which change depending on airspeed. It gonna be a monster in a slow speed turn fight. I’ve never read anything saying it was poor at ACM. It was retired because it was complicated, and expensive to operate, not because it was ineffective. And yes, in a close in circle fight the F-86 will curb stomp any 4th gen.

[S. Low]

Well when you limit the discussion to guns and in-plane fights then ww2 planes are still top dog lol. Going vertical, disengage and reengage, and employing new sidewinders makes things more realistic. Tomcat (B) not having a helmet sight or aim 9x makes it inferior to the 18 or 16.

[Mr. Big.Biggs]

At least in the dogfight server, I’m chewing tail with the F14, sidewinder and guns only. I only have relative low stick time but it seems the maneuverability, speed and ability to out climb just about everything it rocks. Only time I fret is when I’m against another f14. (Not saying I’m invincible mind you) but will say that the F18 seems like a sitting duck at least in that environment. (I’m sure there are many 18 pilots that will repeatedly smoke my butt)

Basically just saying once you get over the whole break you’re wings deal its a very capable plane.

Regards

[Hummingbird]

If you don't understand why the F-14 does so well in the sim, then simply look up the real life performance graphs and compare. You'll soon realize that HB's simulation of the F-14 is one of, if not the most accurate FM ingame atm. Amongst the teen series the F-14 quite simply was/is the king of the pure horizontal turn fight, hence simply don't go there if you're fighting one. If fighting an F-14 in an F-16 or F-15, use the vertical, here the Cat will struggle against you.

 

PS: the chart posted by that "other" user is completely false, the F-14's STR drops off above 0.74 mach, where the F-15, F-16 and even the F/A-18 are all better in the sim (the F/A-18 is suspiciously good at these speeds).

Edited January 28, 2020 by Hummingbird

[rinkerbuck]

The F14B is a tough opponent in guns only yes, F14A not so much. Was messing around with 1v1 in an F5E and was only able to win against the F14B by staying over 400kts in a turn as much as possible, rate fighting him all the way to the deck then (with difficulty!) forcing an overshoot. Even when I was on his tail he almost got away again but I extended with nose down then pulled up hard to gun him while he was going over the top. Also they take a crazy amount of cannon to bring down.

[captain_dalan]

Aye, guns only is usually won by the rate fighter, if properly flown of course.

[Uxi]

You should try going against an F-15, SU-27 or SU-33.

 

The Hornet is much slower than the Tomcat and doesn't have nearly the fuel endurance, though it should be able to out turn you in a circle fight.

[*Aquila*]

The Hornet and Viper's pimary role is as air to ground plaftorms, NOT as dogfighters.

Nope.

 

Yes, but that is not what it evolved into.

Nope.

 

They were designed as multirole platforms and evolved as multirole platform. They were designed, among other things, to be great dogfighters and evolved, among other things, as even better dogfighters. Many countries bought them as their main air defense planes, and their abilities in close air combat have been increased during their whole life span, and still are being taken care of.

[jojo]

Nope.

 

 

Nope.

 

They were designed as multirole platforms and evolved as multirole platform. They were designed, among other things, to be great dogfighters and evolved, among other things, as even better dogfighters. Many countries bought them as their main air defense planes, and their abilities in close air combat have been increased during their whole life span, and still are being taken care of.

 

F-16A was designed with emphasis on close air to air combat. It did evolve as increasingly more and more capable multirole fighter, gaining weight and trying to compensate with more powerful engine.

 

The bigger F/A-18A was multirole from the beginning.

 

Ultimately, AIM-9X + JHMCS are meant to “simplify” the dogfight and to avoid having to turn too much.

[Figaro9]

... You'll soon realize that HB's simulation of the F-14 is one of, if not the most accurate FM ingame atm. ...

 

PS: the chart posted by that "other" user is completely false, the F-14's STR drops off above 0.74 mach, where the F-15, F-16 and even the F/A-18 are all better in the sim (the F/A-18 is suspiciously good at these speeds).

 

If that plot is totally false as you say, how can the fm of dcs f14b be the most accurate in dcs as you claim?

 

this graph was done by pamenchan, comparing turn rates of different dcs modules at sea level. That is how the game worked that testing day. Only thing that is wrong in that chart is the 9g limit of the f14b, but that is the way gamers fly that ship anyway.

In dcs, she turns the best at sea level at all speeds... that is a fact.

 

Is this accurate to rw? I do not know any doghouse of a F14 at sea level, so I canˋt really comment on that. If that is accurate, she benefits from low (and clean) flying by far the most, since at higher altitude she is not dominating the dogfight skies at all

[Whiskey11]

Nope.

 

 

Nope.

 

They were designed as multirole platforms and evolved as multirole platform. They were designed, among other things, to be great dogfighters and evolved, among other things, as even better dogfighters. Many countries bought them as their main air defense planes, and their abilities in close air combat have been increased during their whole life span, and still are being taken care of.

 

Ehhhh... the F16A was not multi role... it was designed as a replacement for the F5 to sell to NATO countries to operate as a day only air superiority fighter. In a lot of ways the Hornet is the navy equal but the navy intended to use their F/A18A Hornets. The airforce wanted next to nothing to do with the F16 until budget cuts forced them to consider the cheaper aircraft to maintain fighter numbers when they couldn't procure anymore eagles.

 

Both evolved, at considerable tax payer expense into more refined multi role aircraft. I imagine that had the super Hornet budget gone to the super Tomcat instead, the Tomcat would have matured and evolved quite nicely too... but politicians and their pet companies combined with an aging fleet of tomcats meant someone wanted their pet company to get a pet contract to un screw up the Hornet while hanging up the better aircraft rather than putting money into them.

[jojo]

Ehhhh... the F16A was not multi role... it was designed as a replacement for the F5 to sell to NATO countries to operate as a day only air superiority fighter. In a lot of ways the Hornet is the navy equal but the navy intended to use their F/A18A Hornets. The airforce wanted next to nothing to do with the F16 until budget cuts forced them to consider the cheaper aircraft to maintain fighter numbers when they couldn't procure anymore eagles.

 

Both evolved, at considerable tax payer expense into more refined multi role aircraft. I imagine that had the super Hornet budget gone to the super Tomcat instead, the Tomcat would have matured and evolved quite nicely too... but politicians and their pet companies combined with an aging fleet of tomcats meant someone wanted their pet company to get a pet contract to un screw up the Hornet while hanging up the better aircraft rather than putting money into them.

 

The F/A-18A Hornet replaced A-7, so there was more emphasis on AG than the F-16A and superior avionics IMHO (3 MFD, moving map and so on...).

Also Hornet did have BVR weapons for AA (AIM-7) which were mostly lacking for F-16A.

 

But both evolved and the F-16 did catch up, to the point that both are doing the same missions with the same weapons but slightly differently.