FW190D9 can't dogfight.

[iFoxRomeo]

The graphs are obviously different. Dora in 2.5.6 is loosing speed much faster. Which agrees with what everybody said.

 

Okay, now you just want to see, what you want to see. Confirmation bias anyone?

 

I did the test without any bias, because I wanted to know, if there are differences.

 

I was not precise. The interesing part I tested was the turn rate left and right at approx. 300km/h at 3000rpm and 3250+mw50. Additionally the vertical climb.

 

The hard pulls are not comparable, because the dora lacks of a g-meter. I just tried to ride at the egde of stall.

 

During the testflight in both versions the Dora felt the same, but this is of course subjective perception.

 

Fox

[iFoxRomeo]

...

 

I can't say if there were amy changes to the flight model but the test doesn't seem to be reliable. What is bothering me is that Dora remains at disadventage compared to enemies, which is not completly historicaly correct...

 

How can you judge an aircraft's capability with that statement? And there were more types of aircraft during the war than just the Mustang and the Spitfire.

And do you fly with a wingman? A 1 on 1 probably didn't happen as often as it happens in DCS online. A Wingman changes the situation drastically. There are just too many variables.

We can compare data from real tests with the aircraft in DCS. Books of Pilots telling their War Stories are not sources for Flight Model programming.

 

Don't get me wrong. I want the most accurate recreation that is possible, but only created with data, not war stories.

 

If you have some data then please share it with us.

 

Fox

[msalama]

if you would like misinterpret me again

 

No, I'm interpreting you correctly. You're airing opinions which may - or may not - be correct, and as such, they're pretty much worthless because you haven't presented anything tangible.

 

So thank you for your opinions. They're nice. Cute, even.

Edited May 1, 2020 by msalama

[msalama]

you are not an experieneced online dogfighter

 

...which actually is something you know nothing about. I'm mostly offline now, true, but your knowledge about my former scope of activities is still zero. So what exactly are you claiming there?

[amazingme]

"CALCULATED PERFORMANCE" VS

 

Performence Test( A. Clean Configuration (with bomb racks). :

 

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/p51d-15342.html

Take the bomb rack away and we have almost the same result with DCS

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No the Video show 380mph.

 

Bear in mind that those values are TAS. IAS is lower and depends on the atmospheric conditions. In my video I was doing 620 to 630 km/h IAS and could not get close to the P51 who was putting 71inHg???? and over 400 TAS. Dora could easily catch the P51 on level flight @ SL with MW50, easily.. What we see now it's definitely a bug that is shamely exploited.

 

Sent from my Redmi 5 using Tapatalk

[Hobel]

Bear in mind that those values are TAS. IAS is lower and depends on the atmospheric conditions. In my video I was doing 620 to 630 km/h IAS and could not get close to the P51 who was putting 71inHg???? and over 400 TAS. Dora could easily catch the P51 on level flight @ SL with MW50, easily.. What we see now it's definitely a bug that is shamely exploited.

 

Sent from my Redmi 5 using Tapatalk

 

and to the "71inHg" maybe it is a display error due to the fire

other ads are broken as you can see

 

 

 

"In my video I was doing 620 to 630 km/h IAS and could not get close to the P51 who was putting"

 

 

You both come into this situation with almost the same energy level With constant ups and downs

And the D9 is a bit slower at this height

A Tacview filewould be helpful to open up the situation everything else are only guesswork

 

at sea lvl

D9 ~600kmh (whether it is correct in DCS is questionable)

 

P51D~ 615kmh

Edited May 1, 2020 by Hobel

[Enduro14]

You have already admitted that you play PvE, mainly ground attack and you are not an experieneced online dogfighter. You also proved your abilities to not jam Dora's guns. In other words you don't push her to the limit. So if there were minor changes you wouldn't notice them. Why are you realy disscussing here?

 

I can't say if there were amy changes to the flight model but the test doesn't seem to be reliable. What is bothering me is that Dora remains at disadventage compared to enemies, which is not completly historicaly correct.

 

@masalama, if you would like misinterpret me again, I shall add that I never said I can't fly Dora well.

 

So only online air Quakers know the ins and outs of the air frames. Interesting..

[Shahdoh]

They obviously do not know as much as they think they do if they did not know that the Mustang has been capable of 330+ knots at sea level for 5 years or more....

[Brigg]

yes we do know, but what we do know is that the Doras performance has decreased since around the release of the Spit ix,and im ENGLISH

[Whisper]

at sea lvl

D9 ~600kmh (whether it is correct in DCS is questionable)

 

P51D~ 615kmh

 

A quick check (with fast sources available to us) tells us that this DCS D9 looks quite OK if not in the lower end of available IRL tests (tests show between 597 & 607 kph @ SL), while the DCS P51 at 615kph SL would be over the most optimistic test result, which show between 592 and 606kph @ SL.

(Single source used : http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org , see relevants reports for P51D (I found 2 of them) and D9 with MW50 (found 2 of them too). Of course, that's not enough, but that's a start).

 

On my personal tiny experience, I distinctly remember 1+year ago being able to outpace any chasing opponent in D9 by simply pushing max throttle and MW50 in horizontal low alt, no one was able to keep up. Now, why was that happening, I've no clue (change in D9 or P51 I am certainly not able to say, or was the P51 requiring certain very specific settings to go faster than D9 that only a very selected few know about, or just the specific situations I was in explaining the result), but that's for my anecdotal experience :) Which is to be taken as such : anecdotal.

 

In theorie from what I read in the reports, P51 & D9 should be rather equal match at sea level (I've not checked at different alts), if there's a slight edge, it looks like the D9 had it, but it falls within margin of error. If DCS follows this, that would match my tiny personal experience, since if I'm not mistaken a D9 can sustain WEP with MW50 longer than P51 can, which means that a pursuing P51 cannot keep up in the long run provided I was using a proper escape window, which I was ;)

 

EDIT : Or I completely misread reports :) Feel free to correct me, I'm by no mean expert

Edited May 2, 2020 by Whisper

[Hobel]

A quick check (with fast sources available to us) tells us that this DCS D9 looks quite OK if not in the lower end of available IRL tests (tests show between 597 & 607 kph @ SL), while the DCS P51 at 615kph SL would be over the most optimistic test result, which show between 592 and 606kph @ SL.

(Single source used : http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org , see relevants reports for P51D (I found 2 of them) and D9 with MW50 (found 2 of them too). Of course, that's not enough, but that's a start).

 

On my personal tiny experience, I distinctly remember 1+year ago being able to outpace any chasing opponent in D9 by simply pushing max throttle and MW50 in horizontal low alt, no one was able to keep up. Now, why was that happening, I've no clue (change in D9 or P51 I am certainly not able to say, or was the P51 requiring certain very specific settings to go faster than D9 that only a very selected few know about, or just the specific situations I was in explaining the result), but that's for my anecdotal experience :) Which is to be taken as such : anecdotal.

 

In theorie from what I read in the reports, P51 & D9 should be rather equal match at sea level (I've not checked at different alts), if there's a slight edge, it looks like the D9 had it, but it falls within margin of error. If DCS follows this, that would match my tiny personal experience, since if I'm not mistaken a D9 can sustain WEP with MW50 longer than P51 can, which means that a pursuing P51 cannot keep up in the long run provided I was using a proper escape window, which I was ;)

 

EDIT : Or I completely misread reports :) Feel free to correct me, I'm by no mean expert

 

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/p51d-15342.html

Take the bomb rack away and we have almost the same result with DCS

I get it from there too

 

 

 

 

 

 

The video is showing 71 inHg and ~400mph!

 

is lower and depends on the atmospheric conditions. In my video I was doing 620 to 630 km/h IAS and could not get close to the P51 who was putting 71inHg???? and over 400 TAS. Dora could easily catch the P51 on level flight @ SL with MW50, easily.. What we see now it's definitely a bug that is shamely exploited.

 

Sent from my Redmi 5 using Tapatalk

 

"and to the "71inHg" maybe it is a display error due to the fire

other ads are broken as you can see"

 

 

additionally to that:https://www.bilder-upload.eu/bild-535cd0-1588514291.jpg.html[/url]

that's what happened in your videoThe speed can also be reached at 67

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But there is also another damage that even ensures more speed

can only be caused by damage:

 

https://www.bilder-upload.eu/bild-1d27f8-1588514271.jpg.html

 

 

 

https://streamable.com/sz8emd

Edited May 3, 2020 by Hobel

[Whisper]

Which still makes 615kph using the optimistic values, I'd say, the upper levels of results, only for P51. 15kph difference in DCS looks optimistic to me considering all the various test results and the resulting error margins.

[Hiromachi]

Well, did anybody actually try to compare P-51 to the data that Yoyo actually used as a reference in his own P-51 FM and results of his FM vs real data:

Source: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1577405&postcount=7

I've done those tests a few times, for another reason than this discussion, but this can help us know how P-51 compares now to what Yoyo created 8 years ago. So 61" MAP, 3000 RPM, radiators auto. I could get pretty much every time to ~363-364 mph on deck.

To me nothing has changed when it comes to P-51 top speed.

 

Now that user can manipulate with radiator and RPM ... well, in real life it was possible as well. But risky and I'd not recommend to do it irl or in game. Radiator flaps trick is good for pursuit but any maneuvering and your engine is done.

 

As for the Dora. I dont know about the performance decrease in numbers. Did not carry any tests so wont comment on that.

But from purely subjective point of view of my daily flying. Dora struggles with low speed acceleration. On the ground it requires significant throttle operation to get it running, last night I felt like someone glued my airplane to the ground.

I also have some trouble with engine failure due to overheat. I always warm up prior to take off to reach minimum of 50 deg C on oil and only than taxi to the runway. Had a few accidents when shortly after take-off engine started running rough, some weird sound could be heard and I felt loss of power as I was unable to maintain 400 km/h in level flight at 1.4 - 1.5 Ata. After landing and pulling back the throttle to idle engine was stuck in some limbo of starting and stopping. Similar to what happens when you energize the started too shortly. Than it also can get stuck in that mode and you need to get a new airplane.

But in flight problem was clearly a matter of overheating. Interestingly after that cowl flaps stopped being operational and oil temp never decreased, even when Ata was lowered and nose dropped to increase the speed.

If I had more time Id investigate engine cooling / thermodynamics. Maybe those are my errors, maybe there is an issue.

 

But despite my issues so far it did not stop me from being competitive online in Dora. This aircraft is extremely capable and a lot more enjoyable than the 109. For one it requires a lot more skill and tactical planning than K-4.

[Sharkh]

Really interesting discussion.

 

 

 

I have only a few dozen hour with the D9 but what i noticed recently compared to what I have experienced playing the Dora about two years ago that sometimes I don't know why and how but now I felt it quickly lost its power because after a short climb what last only about 2-3 minute with mw-50 the maximum speed dercreased drastically while I don't remember it was like this back than. (back than I just lost engine power for no reason :D)

 

I have just experienced the same thing a few days ago with the bf-109 btw.

 

So I am not sure if I did something wrong and its just that the cooling system modelling became more accurate in the past two year and my "wrong doings" had no consequences back than just the way it has by now.

 

 

Maybe I am wrong but as I remember I have read something at this forum somewhere about "code rewrites" of some old codes about how systems like cooling are programmed and all this in preparation of the new upcomming damage model update so its also worth to consider that these differences in top speeds might be due to these work in progress system changes like new codes in the systems like cooling or MW50 itself.

Edited May 3, 2020 by Sharkh

[msalama]

Yes Sharkh, the warbirds are getting an entirely new engine cooling model.

[amazingme]

Yes Sharkh, the warbirds are getting an entirely new engine cooling model.

Stop spreading lies, please.

 

Per Kate:

Dear Community, dear Friends,

 

We hope you are well and that you and your families are safe and not too distressed in these tough times. We also hope you enjoyed last month’s “Stay at Home” event. It was a new and refreshing adventure we trust was well received by the community as we registered a very large number of users who took advantage of the free to fly opportunities, despite the rather short 2-day time limits for each module.

 

In the light of the ongoing difficulties we are all facing, we have decided to go the extra mile and will be announcing a similar but enhanced event in the very near future. We really hope it will meet with your approval and enthusiasm.

 

Thank you again for all your comments I received following my previous post on Reddit/Hoggit.

 

Your remarks were extremely helpful, insightful and encouraging too.

 

Today I would like to share some information pertaining to the DCS: Supercarrier early access release date, the F/A-18C Hornet and F-16C Viper roadmaps and our updated pipeline.

 

DCS: Supercarrier

 

We have been working hard towards the announced release date of April 15th. Sadly, we were unable to work through all the issues in order to ensure a satisfactory Early Access release.

 

The main “no-go” for me and I am sure for you too, is Multiplayer behavior which still suffers from certain non-game breaker bugs which were confirmed on Saturday, April 11th. Today we have a new plan and will be working overtime to bring you this long-awaited product. I actively follow the threads, in particular “April 15th 2020” and I understand how disappointed you are, but I am confident you will agree that Multiplayer needs a bit more love.

 

DCS: F/A-18C Hornet

 

Since my previous post we delivered 4 FLIR pointing modes which were a substantial task to develop. We have prepared a bug fix update for this week and we are working to deliver the following features by the end of April:

 

* Completion of the Litening Targeting Pod

 

* Dynamic launch zones and AUTO LOFT mode for JDAM

 

* AG radar: Real Beam Ground Map (MAP)

 

* SLAM air-to-surface missile

 

During the spring and summer, we plan to work on a range of Flight Model enhancements that include Automatic Carrier Landing System (ACLS), autopilot modes, and about 30 related features and issues.

 

DCS: F-16C Viper

 

For the last two months, we have mainly focused on bug fixing and small improvements. A new developer joined us recently and is working hard on the AGM-65D Maverick air-to-surface missile, which we hope he will be delivering by the end of April.

 

We will be increasing our efforts on the navigation system starting in May. Improvements will include the update of the steerpoint system permitting in-game mission planning and cursor zero (CZ) will also be added.

 

Our general roadmap hasn’t changed substantially since February 20th:

 

* Ka-50 cockpit update was delivered.

 

* Fw 190 A-8 Anton was released out of Early Access.

 

* New Damage Model is progressing well and will be presented to you in the near future.

 

* Enhanced Aircraft AI was added to active phase of development together with FLIR.

 

* A-10C II moved to active phase of development.

 

* Lighting and terrain improvements were pushed back a bit to.

 

* Enhanced Asset Pack, Supercarrier and helicopter Multi-crew now have deadlines.

 

* Hornet received its final list of features to be delivered this year, but this is a topic of a future update.

 

Current projects in active development phase:

 

DCS Core:

 

* [ Near Term ] 2.5.6 preparation for the stable release (FPS improvement)

 

* [ Near Term ] Damage Modeling for WWII Aircraft

 

* [ Long Term ] Weapon improvement (missile dynamics, new AI units), final AIM-120B dynamics to be released very soon AIM-120C to follow

 

* [ Mid to Long Term ] Voice Chat

 

* [ Long Term ] Dynamic Campaign

 

* [ Long Term ] Enhanced Aircraft Artificial Intelligence

 

DCS Graphic Engine:

 

* [ Near Term ] Special effects update

 

* [ Long Term ] Multi-threading

 

* [ Long Term ] Vulkan API integration

 

* [ Long Term ] New FLIR engine

 

Modules:

 

* [ April 2020 ] WWII Asset Pack update

 

* [ April-May 2020 ] Supercarrier EA

 

* [ May 2020 ] Huey Multi-crew

 

* [ Q2 2020 ] P-47D Thunderbolt EA

 

* [ Q2-3 2020 ] The Channel EA

 

* [ Mid Term ] Mariana Islands

 

* [ Dec 2020 ] F/A-18C Hornet out of EA

 

* [ Mid to Long Term ] F-16C Viper

 

* [ Mid Term ] Modern Air Combat

 

* [ Mid Term ] A-10C Warthog II

 

* [ Mid Term ] Mi-24P Hind

 

Near Term - we have the final list of tasks to be done before we share it in DCS World and expect delivery in less than 6 months.

 

Mid Term - we have a firm list of tasks and we trust that it might be delivered in less than 9 months.

 

Long Term - we have an initial list of tasks but still a lot to add and do not have exact expectations. Some Long term tasks can be delivered partially in iterations, some need to be fully completed.

 

Projects that are in the passive development phase (waiting for a 3D model delivery, developers allocation, reference gathering stage or one of the current active project to be finished first):

 

DCS Core:

 

* Damage Modeling for modern aircraft

 

* Airfield ATC

 

DCS Graphic Engine:

 

* Terrain lighting

 

* Terrain improvement

 

* Clouds. This task is planned to be started again in May 2020.

 

* Weather update

 

* Full Air-to-Ground Radar

 

Modules:

 

* Yak-52 Release

 

* Ka-50 Black Shark 3

 

* Mosquito FB MK.VI

 

ED has 4 items in Early Access:

[*]F-16C Viper

[*]F/A-18C Hornet

[*]Yak-52

[*]WWII Asset Pack

 

We plan to deliver all products out of Early Access this year however, the F-16C Viper is likely to be in Q1 2021, but we’ll keep you updated.

 

Thank you for taking the time to read this and I look forward to all your comments.

 

Thank you all for your passion and support.

 

Yours truly,

 

Kate Perederko

 

Chief Operating Officer

 

Eagle Dynamics

 

Sent from my Redmi 5 using Tapatalk

[Hiromachi]

You know amazingme, being nice to other people doesnt cost you anything but it sure makes you look better ;)

 

Yoyo stated some time ago that there will be overhaul to engine thermodynamics. I think its best to ask him if he knows anything about it.

[razo+r]

New cooling system is not a lie.9L confirmed the new cooling system is in the works.

[amazingme]

New cooling system is not a lie.9L confirmed the new cooling system is in the works.

So that necessarily means it's in the Open Beta.. Assumption is the mother of all failures.

 

Sent from my Redmi 5 using Tapatalk

[msalama]

Stop spreading lies, please.

 

Lies? Oh my, but someone's grumpy this morning. Did I accidentally crap on your cornflakes or something? Anyway, they've mentioned the new cooling model several times and if those plans have changed or fallen by wayside, I at least haven't heard about it.

[msalama]

sure makes you look better

 

Well, not the only thing he hasn't understood just yet.

[amazingme]

You know amazingme, being nice to other people doesnt cost you anything but it sure makes you look better ;)

 

Yoyo stated some time ago that there will be overhaul to engine thermodynamics. I think its best to ask him if he knows anything about it.

First of all, respect is something that must be earned. Secondly, whenever someone presents an idea or an opinion that disagrees with his own he immediately attacks that person with pueril epitets like 'whinners' or other of this kind. Nothing of value came from this guy besides these. So, the best thing somebody can do with this type of people is just to ignore them. I hope you understand me. Thanks.

 

Sent from my Redmi 5 using Tapatalk

[iFoxRomeo]

So that necessarily means it's in the Open Beta.. Assumption is the mother of all failures.

 

Sent from my Redmi 5 using Tapatalk

"In the works" means it is in development. Not that it works/functions in DCS already.

[amazingme]

"In the works" means it is in development. Not that it works/functions in DCS already.

Exactly.

 

Sent from my Redmi 5 using Tapatalk

[Hiromachi]

It's not about respect but politeness. You dont have to respect the other person, to be polite to him.

 

As for the disagreement. You brought up the point about changes in P-51D FM. That you think it was beefed up and you have strong evidence for that. And when others disagreed, you call them whiners.

Present the evidence and lets talk this over because you havent addressed yet data I posted on previous page about ingame recordings made by Yoyo 8 years ago. And its easy enough to replicate this top speed test. 61" MAP, 3000 RPM and Auto radiators. I usually test in ICAO standard atmosphere but thats up to you.