Rudders - am I missing something?

[markturner1960]

Hi, been flying jet sims a long while now, albeit with a 3 year break, but in all that time, I never much used the rudders....I am now working very hard at getting my skills and knowledge back to where it was when I flew in an online squad and wondered exactly how much and for what, really good jet sim pilots used their rudders? Mostly, I only touch mine when steering the jet on the ground..... and seem to do just fine?

 

Am I missing a trick here in fine details of controlling the jet?

[ricktoberfest]

Hi, been flying jet sims a long while now, albeit with a 3 year break, but in all that time, I never much used the rudders....I am now working very hard at getting my skills and knowledge back to where it was when I flew in an online squad and wondered exactly how much and for what, really good jet sim pilots used their rudders? Mostly, I only touch mine when steering the jet on the ground..... and seem to do just fine?

 

Am I missing a trick here in fine details of controlling the jet?

 

 

Depends on the jet. I can do a great pirouette in the F18 that is great for getting in the tail of those pesky mig29s in the instant action. That wouldn’t be possible without at least a twist grip. Also older jets require as much rudder as ww2 props seem to need

[Ercoupe]

Swept winged jets do not require much rudder. Some pilots say none at all. I read, somewhere, that F-16 pilots push them out of the way. Seems that you don't want to be accidently kicking the rudder during high G maneuvers.

I also have been told that the only time most F-16 pilots use the rudders is to compensate for the yaw caused by the gun firing.

[Pike]

Landing techniques is a good one to remember. Cross wind in MP doesn't really ever seem to be a factor so crabbing and side slips are not generally needed, however, if you are high on approach a good forward slip is awesome to have in the pocket.

[Razor18]

Swept winged jets do not require much rudder.

 

 

Not just swept wing jets...

[Raisuli]

I have to take my feet off them when utterly failing to successfully hook up to a tanker, but use them all the time if I need to get my nose pointed in a different direction quickly, or suddenly need to bleed speed and the airbrake isn't enough.

 

 

 

It's probably possible to live without them for most things, assuming you come up with a nosewheel tiller of a different flavor.

[Harker]

I wouldn't fly my Hornet without rudder pedals, I find them essential for taking advantage of the jet's handling at high AOA during BFM/ACM. In the Viper, I rarely use them, since it fights differently. In both jets, I'll use them to make small adjustments during a gun run, but ideally I wouldn't have to do that. In AAR, I find that I maintain better control with the stick only, using the rudder very infrequently.

[markturner1960]

OK, seems like those who have answered so far don't have much use for them either on the whole..... however IRL, they are there for a reason I guess.....

 

I am wondering if perhaps my fairly average ones ( CH Pro pedals) could do with upgrading and if this might give me the finesse that could be the missing part of the puzzle in refueling, formation flying and adjustments landing on the boat....

 

I was looking at the TM TPR pedals, nice, but was measuring the use I give my present pedals against the cost....nice kit though.....

[Harker]

OK, seems like those who have answered so far don't have much use for them either on the whole..... however IRL, they are there for a reason I guess.....

 

I am wondering if perhaps my fairly average ones ( CH Pro pedals) could do with upgrading and if this might give me the finesse that could be the missing part of the puzzle in refueling, formation flying and adjustments landing on the boat....

 

I was looking at the TM TPR pedals, nice, but was measuring the use I give my present pedals against the cost....nice kit though.....

The TPR are indeed nice. I have mine for a good while now, without any issues. They can be extremely precise. I was skeptical at first, but the heel on the floor design actually makes for increased precision, because I can decide how to apply pressure. And if you're more into flying helos, you can remove the springs altogether.

The only thing is that since your foot is not not "on them" (heel on the floor), you need to potentially put a little more pressure (at least in my case, otherwise I find the center too sensitive). That was a problem for my office chair, since it'd roll back. I replaced the wheels with legs though and that fixed it. It'll also depend on your angle towards them.

[G B]

Hi, been flying jet sims a long while now, albeit with a 3 year break, but in all that time, I never much used the rudders....I am now working very hard at getting my skills and knowledge back to where it was when I flew in an online squad and wondered exactly how much and for what, really good jet sim pilots used their rudders? Mostly, I only touch mine when steering the jet on the ground..... and seem to do just fine?

 

Am I missing a trick here in fine details of controlling the jet?

 

Only ever touched them for taxiing, crosswind landing, BFM. Never give them a thought otherwise.

[Ourorborus]

Rudder deflection is always required for balanced turns, having a different propulsion system doesn't change the laws of aerodynamics. What changes is how much control input is required to achieve the required deflection.

 

Historic aircraft had a direct linkage between the controls and the surfaces, thus any rudder deflection required control input to achieve. This is particularly the case for taildraggers that need large rudder deflection during ground roll.

 

Modern fly by wire aircraft have the control surfaces moved by computer to achieve the desired flight path as directed by the control input. Careful observation will show there is not always a direct relationship between stick position and aileron/elevator deflection, and forward stick movement may involve more than elevator deflection. On these aircraft, the computer will normally adjust the rudder as required to maintain balanced flight. Rudder control input is only required when you wish to deliberately enter an unbalanced condition (aeros/BFM) or on the ground.

 

Semi modern hydraulic aircraft tend to have yaw dampers which are designed to adjust the rudders to maintain balanced flight.

 

Although we tend to classify the divide as jets vs helo/ww2. the difference is really modern vs older aircraft. e.g. King Airs have Yaw Dampers. And modern helos have fly by wire that reduce the need for control input during certain stages of flight. (I know many Blackhawk pilots that put their feet on the floor during cruise and NH-90 pilots who trust the autohover enough to only guard the controls during the hover)

[Brun]

^ This makes a very good point. Not touching the pedals does not mean the rudder isn't moving.

[Snake122]

OK, seems like those who have answered so far don't have much use for them either on the whole..... however IRL, they are there for a reason I guess.....

 

I am wondering if perhaps my fairly average ones ( CH Pro pedals) could do with upgrading and if this might give me the finesse that could be the missing part of the puzzle in refueling, formation flying and adjustments landing on the boat....

 

I was looking at the TM TPR pedals, nice, but was measuring the use I give my present pedals against the cost....nice kit though.....

 

The TPR are indeed nice. I have mine for a good while now, without any issues. They can be extremely precise. I was skeptical at first, but the heel on the floor design actually makes for increased precision, because I can decide how to apply pressure. And if you're more into flying helos, you can remove the springs altogether.

The only thing is that since your foot is not not "on them" (heel on the floor), you need to potentially put a little more pressure (at least in my case, otherwise I find the center too sensitive). That was a problem for my office chair, since it'd roll back. I replaced the wheels with legs though and that fixed it. It'll also depend on your angle towards them.

 

I just recently got a set of TPRs after having Saitek Combat Pedals for a long time. Very impressed by them, glad I'm in the position right now to spend that much on them. But I feel most people would be better served by cheaper pedals.

 

I agree that the more modern jets are not the most rudder pedal dependant planes, but I could also make an argument that the good old Cessna 172 isn't either (except for the right one, you need more of that :lol: ). I'm a big believer in heels on the floor. Partly it's that I'm used to it. I think though it gives better feel and control than most feet on the pedal setups.

 

Interestingly, I'm catching up on old Fighter Pilot Podcast Episodes and today listened to the A-10 episode, #44, where someone asked this question to them and they mentioned the pirouette, but also the side slip to scrub off speed on a rendezvous with too much closure when the brakes were already out. I had a "why didn't I think of that" moment because I love using slips in light piston singles to get down from downwind to final but slowing down normally isn't an issue for me.

[maxTRX]

I just recently got a set of TPRs after having Saitek Combat Pedals for a long time. Very impressed by them, glad I'm in the position right now to spend that much on them. But I feel most people would be better served by cheaper pedals.

 

I agree that the more modern jets are not the most rudder pedal dependant planes, but I could also make an argument that the good old Cessna 172 isn't either (except for the right one, you need more of that :lol: ). I'm a big believer in heels on the floor. Partly it's that I'm used to it. I think though it gives better feel and control than most feet on the pedal setups.

 

Interestingly, I'm catching up on old Fighter Pilot Podcast Episodes and today listened to the A-10 episode, #44, where someone asked this question to them and they mentioned the pirouette, but also the side slip to scrub off speed on a rendezvous with too much closure when the brakes were already out. I had a "why didn't I think of that" moment because I love using slips in light piston singles to get down from downwind to final but slowing down normally isn't an issue for me.

 

I still use the Saitek rudders and I can't really complain.

I just remembered watching Blues vid with #4 sliding in the slot after t/o. That's probably taking quite a bit of rudder input to do it that quick.

[Harker]

I just recently got a set of TPRs after having Saitek Combat Pedals for a long time. Very impressed by them, glad I'm in the position right now to spend that much on them. But I feel most people would be better served by cheaper pedals.

Definitely agree with this. I love my TPRs, but I have to recognize that they're absolutely not easily accessible, price wise and my rudder game certainly did not become 5 times better over the TFRP (aka nut crushers) I had before, that cost 1/5th of the price.

[Mars Exulte]

You aren't 100% required to use rudder if all you're doing is screwing around in a very crude fashion, which presumably you are, as otherwise you'd be using rudder often for things like aerial refueling, formation flight, aim adjustment (if you're dogfighting and relying exclusively on pitch and roll to fight you're doing it wrong) and aerobatics. Not to mention just basic competency like flying in a straight line (if you don't use rudder to compensate for crosswind during flight you'll crab across the sky, over a long enough period of time ending up many miles from where you are intending to travel) and during landings (unless you only ever fly during 0 wind or ideal wind conditions).

 

I would compare usage vs non-usage of rudder to the following:

 

An automobile driver who taps the brakes to adjust speed vs one who feathers his throttle. Both get the job done, but one obviously sucks and the other doesn't.

[norman99]

In a nutshell:

 

FBW = no rudder input required in the air.

Non FBW = rudder input required.

 

Flight control laws differ for each aircraft and for different stages of flight. All FBW aircraft I’m aware of will still require rudder input during cross wind landings, engine out scenarios etc. As an example, the 777 FBW system will only input approx 80-90% of the rudder required during an engine failure after takeoff, leaving the pilot to input the final 10-20%.

 

In reality aircraft such as the F-15 & F-14 should require significantly more rudder attention than the F-16/18.

 

Sorry zhukov, but you never use rudder to counteract wind once airborne (last second or two of landing aside). Crabbing across the sky is exactly what you do. If you tried to keep the nose pointed ‘straight’, you’d then need opposite aileron to counter the induced roll creating a high drag crossed control situation. This will rob you of significant speed/range/fuel, and his highly inefficient.

[PoorOldSpike]

I find rudder essential in Hornet to "nudge" the aircraft from time to time when lining up your weapons or lining up for landing.

 

 

PS- I think I read somewhere that the rudder movement sensitivity of fast combat jets is automatically damped down at high speeds to stop the pilot accidentally tearing off the rudder like this guy did when over-correcting in wake turbulence-

 

 

 

 

Edited May 8, 2020 by PoorOldSpike

[markturner1960]

You aren't 100% required to use rudder if all you're doing is screwing around in a very crude fashion, which presumably you are, as otherwise you'd be using rudder often for things like aerial refueling, formation flight, aim adjustment (if you're dogfighting and relying exclusively on pitch and roll to fight you're doing it wrong) and aerobatics. Not to mention just basic competency like flying in a straight line (if you don't use rudder to compensate for crosswind during flight you'll crab across the sky, over a long enough period of time ending up many miles from where you are intending to travel) and during landings (unless you only ever fly during 0 wind or ideal wind conditions).

 

I would compare usage vs non-usage of rudder to the following:

 

An automobile driver who taps the brakes to adjust speed vs one who feathers his throttle. Both get the job done, but one obviously sucks and the other doesn't.

 

Well that was exactly what I was wondering.....I also race cars and as you point out, there is a huge amount gained in very small adjustments and feel.....

 

My thinking was, get some decent pedals and then work hard at using them to the best in the appropriate situation, if you think there is scope for improving your flying of the jet, by using them properly, then that is exactly what I was asking.

[CBStu]

I am far from an expert but one thing I notice is, in the fighters, we tend to crank in a ton of bank and pull back on the stick fairly forcefully for a turn. Flying more normally in more normal planes w/ maximum 15 maybe 20 deg of bank, I am thinking of the instrument (I can't think of it's name) that is used to indicate more or less rudder is needed for a 'coordinated' turn. It's kind of nice for us this way as we don't need to spend the extra $ for pedals. A twist for rudder stick works fine. I do notice that in a cross wind landing, once on the runway, a set of pedals would make the fine rudder adjustment easier so my rollout would be less snake like.

[Mars Exulte]

In a nutshell:

 

FBW = no rudder input required in the air.

Non FBW = rudder input required.

 

Flight control laws differ for each aircraft and for different stages of flight. All FBW aircraft I’m aware of will still require rudder input during cross wind landings, engine out scenarios etc. As an example, the 777 FBW system will only input approx 80-90% of the rudder required during an engine failure after takeoff, leaving the pilot to input the final 10-20%.

 

In reality aircraft such as the F-15 & F-14 should require significantly more rudder attention than the F-16/18.

 

Sorry zhukov, but you never use rudder to counteract wind once airborne (last second or two of landing aside). Crabbing across the sky is exactly what you do. If you tried to keep the nose pointed ‘straight’, you’d then need opposite aileron to counter the induced roll creating a high drag crossed control situation. This will rob you of significant speed/range/fuel, and his highly inefficient.

 

I guess that little ball thing is just decoration then, huh? @@ Whatever

[BuzzU]

Only ever touched them for taxiing, crosswind landing, BFM. Never give them a thought otherwise.

 

 

This is the bottom line from a real pilot. If you aren't doing this too you're doing it wrong.

[Razor18]

PS- I think I read somewhere that the rudder movement sensitivity of fast combat jets is automatically damped down at high speeds to stop the pilot accidentally tearing off the rudder like this guy did when over-correcting in wake turbulence

 

 

Investigation also found that the rudder deflection on that (I guess Airbus?) type at that time was set totally wrong (in the FCS software), with increasing airspeed the rudder deflection response to the pedal input was increasing, instead of decreasing with speed (to keep the aerodynamic force about constant by smaller deflection with speed increasing). In other words, the higher the speed was, the same amount of pedal input generated even bigger deflection, resulting in exponential jump in the resulting force on the stabilizer. But the pilot also overcompensated for sure due to wrong training earlier.

"Swiss cheese effect" - many errors that would be not fatal individually, just if they all happen at the same point in time and space.

[Diesel_Thunder]

I am far from an expert but one thing I notice is, in the fighters, we tend to crank in a ton of bank and pull back on the stick fairly forcefully for a turn. Flying more normally in more normal planes w/ maximum 15 maybe 20 deg of bank, I am thinking of the instrument (I can't think of it's name) that is used to indicate more or less rudder is needed for a 'coordinated' turn. It's kind of nice for us this way as we don't need to spend the extra $ for pedals. A twist for rudder stick works fine. I do notice that in a cross wind landing, once on the runway, a set of pedals would make the fine rudder adjustment easier so my rollout would be less snake like.

 

I believe the instrument you are thinking of is the Turn Coordinator :)

 

A set of pedals is on my list of things to get as well. My rudder consists of a rocker on the back of my throttle. Very limited range of movement, so I only use it for taxi.

[Razor18]

No, you only need a Slip Indicator or "ball" to keep a turn coordinated. Anything above it, will give you feedback about the turn rate (Turn Indicator), and one step further about your bank (Turn Coordinator), but even the Turn Coordinator still doesn't give you pitch information. That one comes from artificial horizont or ADI. Me think...

Edited May 8, 2020 by Razor18