Status of A-10C after A-10C II comes?

[QuiGon]

Honestly I don't know if I want to have two different versions of the A10C, then also the Flaming Cliffs A10A, its too much. I hope there will be a way to take one or the other, upgrade or not. They said in their little blurb that you can change the A10C II to fit any time the A10 was flown, or something like that.

What's the problem with having more variants? You don't have to use them all, even if you own them.

[Sarge55]

I'm with Jasonbirder, it's a forgone conclusion that when they introduce the A-10C II it will break the the A-10C module. That will be very disappointing.

 

No problem with new variants, they just have to figure out how to introduce them without trashing the rest of the sim.

[Fri13]

I definitely remember them saying that the new one will replace the current one in store, and you won't be able to purchase it anymore.

 

Yes, I remember as well 100% that.

 

When "DCS: A-10C II" comes out, the A-10C that has been so far - cease to be for sale. Anyone who purchased the A-10C previously, will maintain access to it but new purchases are not anymore available. So if someone wants A-10C as it is today, they need to purchase one ASAP.

 

Similar thing is with KA-50, when the "Black Shark 3" gets released, it will replace "Black Shark 2" in store and cease to be available for purchase. Anyone who has now the "BS2" will maintain access to it. If someone wants the current "BS2" they need to purchase it ASAP.

 

The question is that as it was said that existing KA-50 and A-10C owners receive significant discount for the upgraded new replacing variants, that how much it really is, and who will actually receive that discount option? Like if someone buys today A-10C and tomorrow A-10C II drops, do the new owners get discount to that "Mark 2" module as well, or is it just for "older owners"?

[Fri13]

Honestly I don't know if I want to have two different versions of the A10C, then also the Flaming Cliffs A10A, its too much. I hope there will be a way to take one or the other, upgrade or not.

 

If you want A-10A, you buy it separately or Flaming Cliffs 3 package.

If you want A-10C, you buy it now, as it gets replaced soon.

If you want "A-10C II", you buy it in the future as it will be only "A-10C" available.

 

They said in their little blurb that you can change the A10C II to fit any time the A10 was flown, or something like that.

 

That would be interesting as it would mean that you have A-10C module that covers A-10A, A-10C and the new "A-10C II" features, and so on it would brake the idea even have two separate A-10C variants as modules.

 

Are you sure they didn't talk about the new mission editor feature where at bottom you can click the clock icon to limit all weapons and aircrafts to mission date? So if you go to year 1990, you do not get to see AIM-120 missiles at all as it got in service in 1991. If you make mission to 1992, you have AIM-120A, but no B or C variants. Then if you unlock the date limitation, you get to have any weapon you want to that mission regardless the realistic years.

[Minsky]

So if someone wants A-10C as it is today, they need to purchase one ASAP.

 

Most likely this is not necessary.

 

The current owners will only pay the price difference between two versions (or slightly more/less), but they will be able to use them both simultaneously (proof), including tons of content created for the current A-10C.

 

Excluding the current version from the "standalone" A-10C II would significantly reduce its value in the eyes of new buyers. With zero gain for ED. Doubt they want that.

 

 

Like if someone buys today A-10C and tomorrow A-10C II drops, do the new owners get discount to that "Mark 2" module as well, or is it just for "older owners"?

 

I'm fairly sure that everybody will be eligible for the discount, regardless of the purchase date. How else? You can blame ED for many things, but to me their pricing policy has always been very fair.

Edited August 3, 2020 by Minsky

[Lee1]

Does anyone know will it be an upgrade option for existing users or a complete new by?

[Minsky]

Does anyone know will it be an upgrade option for existing users or a complete new by?

 

Both.

[Worrazen]

If the existing one is kept as-is then it's fine with me, as long as maintenance isn't a burden, not asking for the old version to be modernized if it's kept. But ideally for minimal maintenance going forward it's actually what may be needed, I'm suspicious that it could be just a simple copy-paste, rather it should be integrated so both share code as much as possible and therefore be less of a burden on maintenace (if this theory is the right one), and you'd get both editions in one package/module ofcourse.

 

I heard it's some kind of a mix in DCS that doesn't actually exist in reality, that it's a mix of multiple suites?

 

But now Snoopy keeps saying TCTOs don't have to be fully complete and you can have a mish mash of stuff to put it simply (if I understood that correctly), so whatever I guess it all works out with reality :)

 

I was on keep-both side from the start and I've argumented in a number of posts why there is a niche benefit to keep the old version alive in some fashion, now that I started thinking more of the consequences, I really want to make sure I'm not stretching this too far and making this seem like a huge deal that will make or break DCS (lol) and putting some big maintenance burden on them, that's the last thing ... Really sorry!

 

The argument being that a mission designer can implement deeper gameplay with for example a sneaky trick of enemy "Legacy A-10Cs" earlier in the mission and "Modern A-10Cs" later in the mission this time with GBU-54's tracking moving targets ... and the player gets a lovely surprise, "oh shiii ..." hehe. Remember, the "Legacy A-10C" wouldn't have these modern weapons and a faster way of preparing and locking up with targets/SPI. While the opposing player would be able to, if he's skilled enough, figure out the difference up close (or distant :)) by looking, well guess what, for the presence of the TISL Pod (Pave Penny), so that *removal* actually becomes a FEATURE, without which this differentiation wouldn't be possible, how do you like that, wonderful :D

 

The second biggest argument is that this is the first module that would have multiple variations like this, and I guess it can stay the only one if it doesn't go well or the extra maintennce capacity is reserved for some time, this is not something I'm cheering up for all kinds of modules out there, A-10C's been the workhorse of DCS for so long, I think it deserves a chance of something extra like this, hopefully not at the expense of too much maintenance costs, whatever we can do to help keep that down I'm on-board!

 

That would be for community to have more leeway when patches for A-10C take a bit longer, I guess, but then again A-10Cs well matured anyway, not like it's Early-Access so I don't think think it compares to the rest.

 

Back to reiterate on my hunch, I think the new A-10C's got the whole modelling done from scratch(afaik?) that may make it future proof as well, for future engine updates, and keeping the legacy A-10C may make it hard or block engine improvements is my biggest fear, because for them to maintain both, they would have to re-create the legacy A-10C cockpit from scratch too to bring it to the new

 

But here's the kicker, there probably has to be a way to just copy the new A-10C model and modify it to make the legacy version, so probably not a full redo. Whooh. I am stubborn ain't I :)

 

Also, if the legacy A-10C got a texture update ... well wouldn't that kinda go to waste if only people who wouldn't upgrade would see it, in that case. And then you ask yourself, wouldn't almost everyone upgrade anyway?

Edited August 3, 2020 by Worrazen

[ngreenaway]

If you want to take “they sky is falling” approach , with zero proof, instead of being happy we’re getting some new toys for the A-10C so be it.

 

par for the course for jasonbirder. really, i had hoped he would be happy when he jumped to OB, looks like thats not the case

[Eldur]

Most likely this is not necessary.

 

The current owners will only pay the price difference between two versions (or slightly more/less), but they will be able to use them both simultaneously (proof), including tons of content created for the current A-10C.

 

That's how I expected and understood things to be. We have BS2 and A-10C, BS3 and A-10C II will replace both modules in the store and there will either be upgrade versions for the owners of the old ones or bis discounts on new licenses that literally replace the old ones (similar to the BS2 compared to the BS2 upgrade which was less, but needed a BS1 installation).

 

In the end, the new modules BS3 and A-10C II will give the users two aircraft each:

 

- Ka-50 old

- Ka-50 new

- A-10C suite 3.1 (that number taken from the store page)

- A-10C suite whatever, the new one

 

All old content will still work as before with the old variants, but you can have the new ones as well for new content, or go ahead and replace the old by the new in existing missions if you like.

 

The ones who don't upgrade won't get the new versions, but will naturally be able to keep on flying the old versions, unless they come across missions that replaced the old by the new ones they don't have.

[Fri13]

Most likely this is not necessary.

 

The current owners will only pay the price difference between two versions (or slightly more/less), but they will be able to use them both simultaneously (proof), including tons of content created for the current A-10C.

 

He directly says that IF you own both, then you have both parallel. But not that if you buy a A-10C II that you receive the old one as well.

 

Excluding the current version from the "standalone" A-10C II would significantly reduce its value in the eyes of new buyers. With zero gain for ED. Doubt they want that.

 

Well, the module itself speaks for itself. Alone the coming capability to wear a Scorpion helmet, designate targets on ground by just looking at them, sleeve sensors where you want visually. You get FLIR picture overlaid your right eye from where you are looking at etc.

 

Then you get to see all friendlies as well with it, you get the friendlies positions, aircrafts, designations etc.

 

The A-10C II will be completely different beast, and nothing likely denies you to fly anything existing with it. Just that you might not be able fly some future missions with A-10C as you don't have those capabilities.

 

I'm fairly sure that everybody will be eligible for the discount, regardless of the purchase date. How else? You can blame ED for many things, but to me their pricing policy has always been very fair.

 

Yes, except too many special sales. IMHO ;-)

[Fri13]

Back to reiterate on my hunch, I think the new A-10C's got the whole modelling done from scratch(afaik?) that may make it future proof as well, for future engine updates, and keeping the legacy A-10C may make it hard or block engine improvements is my biggest fear, because for them to maintain both, they would have to re-create the legacy A-10C cockpit from scratch too to bring it to the new

 

The Black Shark 2 got a huge 3D model change when it got released. There is somewhere a comparison shot overlaid to show how big it was. But I think that Black Shark 3 will be using same cockpit but new instruments. Same to happen for A-10C II, you just maintain closely two versions.

 

I still have the problem that in A-10C you sit "top of the stick" by default. And hope to see these fixed at least on new, more preferring in both.

[Minsky]

He directly says that IF you own both, then you have both parallel. But not that if you buy a A-10C II that you receive the old one as well.

 

You're missing the key point.

The current version will be completely removed from the store.

You won't be able to purchase it anymore.

Nor you will be able to enjoy tons of content, created for it over the past years.

Why would they do this?

 

The current owners ($$) must pay the upgrade price ($) to get both versions ($$$ value).

The new owners will pay the increased price ($$$) to get what? Just the new version ($$ value)?

Seems unfair and illogical to me.

[jasonbirder]

par for the course for jasonbirder. really, i had hoped he would be happy when he jumped to OB, looks like thats not the case

 

 

If they don't break the content I have paid a substantial $ investment for...and don't break legacy created content...

I'll be happy as a sandboy...

 

 

Is it REALLY unreasonable to just ask ED NOT to take away the products I have purchased by rendering them unuseable except by jumping through convoluted technical hoops to play a legacy version that WON'T be compatible with any of your other DCS content?

 

 

I mean...I believe Audi have brought out a new version of the A6...but I haven't seen a VAG rep...come round and tow my existing car off the drive...

[jasonbirder]

All old content will still work as before with the old variants

 

 

Has anyone from ED confirmed there will be full support for the legacy A10C and all legacy A10C DLC in each future release version of DCS...

 

 

If they have that's fantastic...if they haven't aren't you just being the pollyanna to my doomsayer?

[Minsky]

@jasonbirder

 

You understand the difference between "taken away" and "became unsupported", right?

 

Nobody's taking it away from you. Just make another DCS install and keep it there for all the eternity.

 

You can't expect a software to be supported indefinitely & for free. And the current A-10C has been around for like... forever.

[Fri13]

You're missing the key point.

The current version will be completely removed from the store.

 

I am not,

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4440644&postcount=30

 

Nor you will be able to enjoy tons of content, created for it over the past years.

Why would they do this?

 

Yes you can!

Backward compatible!

 

You simply replace the A-10C with A-10C II!

And everyone who has purchased the A-10C before its removal, get to play the old content without problems.

 

The challenge is when a new content gets created and it uses A-10C II features that someone doesn't have...

 

The current owners ($$) must pay the upgrade price ($) to get both versions ($$$ value).

 

Yes, see my points.

 

The new owners will pay the increased price ($$$) to get what? Just the new version ($$ value)?

 

What is the A-10C price?

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/shop/modules/dcs_a10c_warthog/

 

$ 59,99

 

That goes out from the store, it is gone, no more A-10C Suite 3.1 available to be purchased.

Why I said "If someone wants the current "BS2" they need to purchase it ASAP." and same for the A-10C Suite 3.1 version.

 

When the A-10C II comes out, what is its price? Likely a $ 69,99, or maybe even same price as now!

 

If you are a new customer, you pay about what you would pay today for A-10C. But you just get only a more modern Suite variant. No more Suite 3.1 for them!

 

If you are old customer, you pay difference with significant discount (what ever it is then, be it like a $ 19,99 or something) to get Suite X (7B or 8 or what ever). That is what you pay if you want the new weapons compatibility and JHMCS.

 

There is no new engines, no new gun, no new flight model, no new anything that would brake the compatibility to future unless a mission designer requires to use a new weapons like GBU-54 JDAM that old one likely can't carry.

 

You can go and take any old mission and fly them with the A-10C II, nothing lost!

 

Seems unfair and illogical to me.

 

No, you get to play all existing content with "A-10C II", AND you get new features.

It is very logical and fair for existing owners of A-10C as they get to buy a new features without paying full price! If you don't like it, you keep using old Suite 3.1 version!

 

The same thing goes for KA-50 with "Black Shark 3". You don't get IGLA missiles, you don't get President-S suite, but you get to fly the same missions and all with Black Shark 2.

 

Considering that someone might have purchased A-10C almost decade ago, they get discount to have a more modern features. And they get to fly both variants if they so want. It is very fair.

 

What ED should do? Give free the A-10C II for existing A-10C owners?

Remove the A-10C Suite 3.1 from everyone and replace it just with the A-10C II?

Bill for A-10C II and give the A-10C free with it?

 

Again, if the A-10C and A-10C II would be incompatible, it wouldn't make much sense to give Suite 3.1 free as you can't fly old content with A-10C II! It would be then dead end anyways in your logic!

 

Old customers gets to keep both.

New customers gets only the new.

 

The new is compatible with the missions of the old one.

 

They can even make it so that we get to mission editor a new unit, "A-10C (Suite 3.1)" that is the current one, and A-10C II becomes as "A-10C" so every mission you launch, will be with the new one, and you need to edit missions if you want to fly with the old one.

Or maybe there comes a "A-10C (Suite 8)" option that new missions starts to use. Maybe there is no matter which one you have, as they are compatible but just with different features?

[jasonbirder]

You can't expect a software to be supported indefinitely & for free.

If I substitute..."Not Broken" with "supported" it seems pretty reasonable to me...

No-one is asking them to add content, update it with new graphics etc etc...simply have it operating at the current level of functionality - without any degredation or breakage...

Have our expectations of software companies really fallen so low...that "You've had it a few months...so if it doesn't work anymore...that's not an issue" is a typical user response...

 

 

Besides...its far from free isn't it...A10C module at $80, 7 DLC Campaigns at $10 each...how long should I expect them to continue working for at that price?

Edited August 4, 2020 by jasonbirder

[jasonbirder]

Yes you can!

Backward compatible!

 

You simply replace the A-10C with A-10C II!

 

 

You can't edit paid-for DLC beacause of copywrite protection

[TheGuardian]

You can't edit paid-for DLC beacause of copywrite protection

 

True, but I also haven't heard ED say they wouldn't allow DLC creators to do so. What if it is simply that easy. Baltic Dragon, Ranger, and others could come back and upgrade there DLC to allow it to port over to the A-10C II. There is nothing in the way that would stop this. Hell, Ranger has already put OPF on the User Files for free so people can still play it right now. Then they change the format to allow it to stay playable for the "old" A-10C and still work for the new Mk.II. Has anyone asked those guys if that is something they are interested in doing?

 

If they want to continue to sell those DLC campaigns you would think they would have to support the new module. Apache600 allows two different planes to operate the same campaign in a single purchase, so I don't see why this can't be done for the content we already have as well.

 

EDIT: Having said that, I would completely understand if DLC creators did charge to bring the campaigns up to the Mk.II. These guys invest a lot of time into these things, so forking a little more cash is understandable given the situation. IMO.

Edited August 4, 2020 by TheGuardian
forgot something.

[jasonbirder]

Hell, Ranger has already put OPF on the User Files for free so people can still play it right now.

 

 

I PAID for this DLC in Jan 2020...7 months ago...it no longer works (I'm sure we can ALL agree that is an EXTREMEL BAD thing)

It's been uploaded to the user files (in a currently non-functional state) in the hope that someone will work on it and fix it...

I'm not sure that's a example of how great things are!

[TheGuardian]

I PAID for this DLC in Jan 2020...7 months ago...it no longer works (I'm sure we can ALL agree that is an EXTREMEL BAD thing)

It's been uploaded to the user files (in a currently non-functional state) in the hope that someone will work on it and fix it...

I'm not sure that's a example of how great things are!

 

Man, I'm just showing an option, trying to be glass half full here. I purchased it back in October 2019, so i understand what you're saying. Sorry man, but this kinda stuff happens in modern games. I guess now we know how the Hawk users feel. But back to what I said, there is nothing ED has said that would make me believe they would not allow those creators to upgrade there campaigns to make them work with the Mk.II and still work with the original A-10C.

[Minsky]

@Fri13

 

You're making a very good point.

 

I think the true question is if they want to continue to support the old A-10C at all.

 

If yes, then I see no reason for them no to bundle it with the new A-10C II.

Because why keep an actively supported module inaccessible to new users?

 

If not, then I guess we should expect a queue of remakes (paid or free) of existing campaigns, like you said. Providing the authors are still around (Ranger is not) and would like to bother (Baltic is already quite busy with existing projects).

 

Hopefully we will get our answer in the coming weeks.

[Northstar98]

Honestly I don't know if I want to have two different versions of the A10C, then also the Flaming Cliffs A10A, its too much. I hope there will be a way to take one or the other, upgrade or not. They said in their little blurb that you can change the A10C II to fit any time the A10 was flown, or something like that.

 

I personally love variants as I often want to make missions conform with historically accurate versions and equipment, where possible. In SF2 and its addons there are heaps of variants to choose from, even for ships.

 

If someone were to say do a Type 23 frigate I would love there to be different variants, representing different fits, for different years.

 

For example (and this is comprehensive, taking it almost beyond the extremes).

 

• Type 23 frigate (1990) with the 4.5" Mk.8 Mod 0 and DS30B 30mm cannons (using Oerlikon KCB cannon)
  
• Type 23 frigate (1998) with the 4.5" Mk.8 Mod 1 (reduced RCS gun house) and DS30B
  
• Type 23 frigate (2009) with the 4.5" Mk.8 Mod 1 and DS30M Mk2 ASCG (remotely operated, using Mk44 Bushmaster II), as well as new SONAR and a MLU to the Sea Wolf.
  
• Type 23 frigate (2013) with Type 996 replaced with Type 997 ARTISAN
  
• Type 23 frigate (2018) with Sea Wolf (ACLOS/SACLOS) replaced with Sea Ceptor (D/L + terminal ARH)
  

 

Okay, maybe some of those aren't really major enough to warrant a new version. But for things like the F-16, what about the early-90s F-16C Block 40 with LANTIRN?

 

So personally I'm hoping that the old suite and the new suite of the A-10C can coexist as 2 variants.

Edited September 10, 2020 by Northstar98

[jasonbirder]

Sorry man, but this kinda stuff happens in modern games.

 

 

Which ones...which modern games (barring the CLoD example I quoted upthread...which is borderline as CLoD was abandonned by its developers and picked up by a modding group) have built in obsolescence...such that the product I bought...no longer works moving forward?

 

 

 

I don't have a huge game collection...so I'm not best placed to answer it...but I can categorically state that ALL my Crusader Kings DLC still works...that despite the release of multiple "themed scenario DLCs...my base CMNAO and it scenarios still work...despite the release of Battle of Bodenplatte, my Batttle of Stalingrad still works etc etc...

Even that most egregious of Software companies didn't "break" my Office products...when I upgraded to a new Windows!