BS3 still happening?

[Northstar98]

On 1/30/2021 at 11:35 PM, shake307 said:

I mean, arguing over who came up with APFSDS tank rounds? 

 

Thank RC with his interesting and not at all biased take on reality for that one.

 

Even so, combined arms is a thing, even though it is severely underdeveloped.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Northstar98

[BranchPrediction]

Dimitry, what is ur yt channel name?

[BranchPrediction]

Hopefully we will get a newsletter dedicated to the future of bs3.

[Sh4rk]

Helo on helo never happens IRL because... There haven't been enough wars with opposing forces that actually had attack helos in them. 

 

World Wars I and II came before modern helos. All the Vietcong had were sticks, stones and canoes made out of drop tanks. Chechnya didn't have an air force... Former Yugoslav countries had like 1 Su-25 left from former Soviet Union. Iraq was like the 5th largest airforce in the world, all out of old Migs and stuff. And ISIS didn't have choppers, did they?

 

Until there's another large scale conflict in a piece of land that has equally capable OPFORs, helo on helo will hardly happen. Russia, China and NATO will only fight on the Moon, and there won't be any helicopters there...

 

Meanwhile in DCS, you can have all helo on helo or helo on plane you want, make your Rotary Air to Air fantasy come true!!

[SovietAce]

8 minutes ago, Sh4rk said:

Helo on helo never happens IRL

On contrary. There was several helicopter fights during Iran-Iraq war. It mainly involved Mi-25(export Mi-24) and AH-1s. 

[Fri13]

On 2/5/2021 at 9:38 PM, Sh4rk said:

Helo on helo never happens IRL because... There haven't been enough wars with opposing forces that actually had attack helos in them. 

 

DCS is a sandbox, not a history repeater.

What happens in real world can be taken to be simulated in DCS with limits.

And Helo v. Helo is a collision that will happen, as has happened in the reality.

 

Just like in reality USA has not invaded Russia, in DCS that happens all the time....

It doesn't mean that it is not prepared or planned even when it has not happened.

 

 

[zerO_crash]

On 2/5/2021 at 8:38 PM, Sh4rk said:

Helo on helo never happens IRL because... There haven't been enough wars with opposing forces that actually had attack helos in them. 

 

World Wars I and II came before modern helos. All the Vietcong had were sticks, stones and canoes made out of drop tanks. Chechnya didn't have an air force... Former Yugoslav countries had like 1 Su-25 left from former Soviet Union. Iraq was like the 5th largest airforce in the world, all out of old Migs and stuff. And ISIS didn't have choppers, did they?

 

Until there's another large scale conflict in a piece of land that has equally capable OPFORs, helo on helo will hardly happen. Russia, China and NATO will only fight on the Moon, and there won't be any helicopters there...

 

Meanwhile in DCS, you can have all helo on helo or helo on plane you want, make your Rotary Air to Air fantasy come true!!

 

The new battlefield between the superpowers is really economy and market dominance. Wars and conflicts have become unethical, unconstitutional and generally uncalled for in today´s society that screams "hugs, not bullets". Also, it costs money, which is the primary reason in this money-driven world. Although history repeats itself and thus we will have a major armed conflict at some point, right now we are in a phase where even superpowers avoid conflicts as it works against their PR and agenda (remember why US lost in Vietnam? it was due to lack of support from civilians back in US). Officially that is, as PMC´s (often backed up by the governments -> Blackwater) are on the increase and the only ones with the incentive to carry on armed conflicts, they got nothing to lose.

 

As to training, well you cannot say that Helo vs. Helo never happens IRL. It has happened before, although there are few documented cases. As such, there have been units both in US army and Russian army that have had additional training on helicopter tactics in case of a clash. There are no conflicts as of today where such a situation would happen, but that´s not how military operates. They train and prepare for the worst, keeping at pace with whatever their arch-enemy has at hand. If they were to only focus on what´s going on today, there would be no need for all this advanced tech that superpowers currently wield. It´s the "what if"-scenarios that have driven the technology and tactics forward.

[3WA]

And in DCS missions, you get nothing but "What if".

Hence why we need everything that the Ka-50 could possibly carry.  And especially Igla's since the enemy copters will ignore armor right below them to come straight at you.

And they are crack shots with their guns and missiles.  If they get within gun range of you, it's over.

Edited February 17, 2021 by 3WA

[Rogue Trooper]

Now that we have the Apache coming, BS3 is even more important.

Jets are all over the place in DCS, it is all USA or Europe.... nothing redfor.... no balance.

At least in choppers we have a chance of achieving some what of a balance..... BS3 is a critical counter balance to the Apache which will be further weighted in Redfor's favour by the Hind. 

BS3 is simply a way of achieving this counterbalance quickly and efficiently.

Once the Apache's longbow comes online.... lets see what way the dice roll.

 

Anything else is simply an error in the way you are thinking.... it leads to imbalance which offers the DCS chopper community nothing at all.

perhaps this is the way some like it, but not me.

 

Edited February 27, 2021 by Rogue Trooper

[Fri13]

On 2/27/2021 at 3:26 AM, Rogue Trooper said:

Now that we have the Apache coming, BS3 is even more important.

Jets are all over the place in DCS, it is all USA or Europe.... nothing redfor.... no balance.

 

The game of "balance" is already over. The "DCS World" could very well be changed to something else as it is so heavily US weighted, but it is just fault of ED by first going so heavily to western side and then Russia changed their laws that simply denied ED to research, search, find, hold any military secrets.

But would it have mattered, as they wouldn't have been able update old modules if they would have managed to do them 10 years ago. 

 

And here we are, ED shouldn't even be able to make a AI version of the BTR-72 or T-72B3 as they need to handle military secrets about weapons, sighting systems, engines etc.

As if you can not hold in your posession any of such information, you can not search for any of such information, and you can not distribute any of such information, then it doesn't matter who does anything as ED needs to distribute the information through the DCS World.  Isn't law the law regardless is it about air force or army? 

 

We should basically just forget all the arguments about anything that Soviet Union or Russia has ever made, and just focus all the maps and terrains to just now to West areas where it would be simulated combat USA vs Germany or USA vs UK or USA vs the western world. As Russia and Russian made military equipment can be left outside of the whole equation.

 

So we should turn to see a Eurocopter Tiger, Agusta A129 Mangusta and then some armed utility helicopters to be done that would fight against AH-64 Apache and AH-1W Super Cobra and other US made armed utility helicopters. 

 

It would be balance, not what many would like but still far better than nothing. 

[Northstar98]

19 minutes ago, Fri13 said:

We should basically just forget all the arguments about anything that Soviet Union or Russia has ever made, and just focus all the maps and terrains to just now to West areas where it would be simulated combat USA vs Germany or USA vs UK or USA vs the western world. As Russia and Russian made military equipment can be left outside of the whole equation.

 

So we should turn to see a Eurocopter Tiger, Agusta A129 Mangusta and then some armed utility helicopters to be done that would fight against AH-64 Apache and AH-1W Super Cobra and other US made armed utility helicopters. 

 

It would be balance, not what many would like but still far better than nothing. 

 

Oh god, that's giving me awful intrusive visions of that other game, please, make it stop!

 

Personally, I think it was a mistake to go for much more modern BLUFOR aircraft than REDFOR could hope to have - it would've probably resulted in this being less of an issue. We'd probably have a much more coherent set, instead of it being all over the place.

 

Oh well, the ship has already sailed, the only hope is some older BLUFOR aircraft.

[Fri13]

12 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

Oh god, that's giving me awful intrusive visions of that other game, please, make it stop!

 

I just spent the time after posting that, in the start of this thread trying to find that what is ED official statement about BS3 status now, only so far have seen "BS3 is happening in 2021, we will inform you later on with news when there is some". 

 

But the thread begin has been so much about AH-64 hunting KA-50 and all the fancy features that Apache has, that I have itch to get home and start a Apache Longbow (yes, the one from 1995) or maybe the GUNSHIP! from 2000. Like, who to go for the Black Shark in DCS when you can enjoy from those fancy hellfires and all radars and such.... Oh yes because...

 

12 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

Oh well, the ship has already sailed, the only hope is some older BLUFOR aircraft.

 

F-4, A-6, F-8, A-7, the community mod A-4.... 

Those are the things that should be mostly waited that they would happen (or used as mod is already out). 

 

I am still personally sad that Razbam got the MiG-23 and ED didn't fight it, as seeing MiG-23 from either ex-Belsimtek, Heatblur or Aviodev would have been more assuring thing. 

There is something in the cold war era tech, being it at most modern as mid 80's like F-15C, but more about 70's era. Difference is like a playing a soccer with friends outside vs playing a soccer game on console in Livingroom with friends. The other will require more stamina and senses with tactics while other that is more about just tactics. 

But what one can do when everything turns to be "push a button to win". 

 

That is as well why it is so boring to even watch DCS online gameplay as it is just people fooling around as there is nothing about realism. It is like watching a kids soccer, where everyone will run after the ball and there might be just the one who is smart enough to open up some tactical advantages a side of the field, but no one else is even noticing the possibility as are just furball around the ball. 

And you can't even fix it with a good squadron as the DCS World doesn't even model the proper combat warfare as it lacks the AI to work independently but slaved to scripts and waypoints etc.

 

And then we should get the attack helicopter operate in a such environment, that is mainly about target shooting. 

 

Apache, Black Shark etc would so much more benefit from a proper AI and RTS elements where units moves based intelligence, with even basic logic from old RISK game. 

[3WA]

Meh.  I'd like to see that new Russian Law.  Without the Ka-50 being fixed and upgraded, the West will just dominate, and the East will be destroyed.

 

I tried to find it on google, but can't find anything.  And I don't see why they would care if older Russian units are simulated (and even some "modern" ones), as most of it is old tech.  At least to the West.  Are they just embarrassed at their level of technology and don't want it to be shown?  Even with an upgraded BS3, it's going to be a HARD fight against the Apache.  If the BS2 is left as it is, the Apache will wipe it out of the sky.

Edited March 1, 2021 by 3WA

[S.E.Bulba]

3 часа назад, 3WA сказал:

Meh.  I'd like to see that new Russian Law…

#481-ФЗ (December 30, 2020).

[3WA]

Thanks Bulba!  Been looking and looking for it.

[Fri13]

5 hours ago, 3WA said:

And I don't see why they would care if older Russian units are simulated (and even some "modern" ones), as most of it is old tech.  At least to the West.  Are they just embarrassed at their level of technology and don't want it to be shown?

 

It is not just Russia vs USA, it is that there are lots of users for the old tech that can need protection. And you anyways protect military capabilities from the principle. No matter is it like how many soldiers use what or where they are etc. You take the stand that nothin is under interpretation that it would be "free for everyone". 

In the USA there is a small but major difference maker, that is the US Congress where documents are commonly public, and so on when you are required to get a public funding, you need to reveal that for what for it is. That cause major conflicts where you need to find a way how to hide projects and capabilities under various projects, fundings etc that wouldn't be under open information laws that citizens would know what their government is doing. So welcome the privatization so you can hide what ever you want. 

 

So considering how much easier it becomes to do the counter-intelligence work when basically everything is a secret, you get foreign agents easily marked and handled as such etc. You just make things clear to everyone. 

[dfpoor]

On 1/17/2021 at 5:00 PM, Raven434th said:

I say scrap the BS3 and make it a Ka-52 hokum

Yeah, I was kind of hoping ED would spend precious development resources on a Mi-28D.  They have a relationship with Mil.  Without a radar mast there should be no classified tech concerns.

The Kamov is super fun.  Blasting enemies at 7K is unreal.  But only 16 were built and they were retired.  The single-seat gunship is pretty much a footnote in army aviation history.

Air to Air in the Ka50 is really difficult.  Can't shoot missiles because you can't lock bandits.  I think 80% of the demand for BS3 is due to the agony of A2A combat.

[3WA]

The REAL problem with the Ka-50 is the Shkval.  It's super simplistic and not realistically modeled.  Reminds of something out of Arma.

The Real Shkval has a contrast lock which you can adjust to get the best contrast.  You adjust the locking gates to form a square around the area you want the Shkval to look at, and then it tries to find the target you want by comparing contrast to the background.  Once it "sees" it, the gates will shrink around it, and you will get a lock.

This means Air targets should be EASY to spot, as they are dark objects against a light sky.  The ground targets will be harder to see because of their camo paints and any nettings or such that are over them.

We need to get this system realistically simulated, just like they are working on realistic radar.  I'm not sure if the Apache has EO, but if it does, hopefully they are working on this system, and it can be ported over to the Ka-50.  It will make shooting missiles against ground targets much more realistic and interesting.  Plus, you will now be able to lock up windows on buildings and such, which we will want when we have better Infantry AI.

Edited March 1, 2021 by 3WA

[TotenDead]

28.12.2020 в 23:03, Beirut сказал:

 

It did just get a nice cockpit makeover, for free. That's not nothing.

 

Actually, it is. All proper games update old models for free

[TaxDollarsAtWork]

43 minutes ago, TotenDead said:

Actually, it is. All proper games update old models for free

Exactly, its thinking like that which makes me believe the people in this community have a bad case of Stockholm syndrome or have never played another video game in their lives

[Beirut]

5 hours ago, TotenDead said:

Actually, it is. All proper games update old models for free

 

Then we agree this is a proper game. I guess everything is fine. 

[3WA]

9 hours ago, TotenDead said:

Actually, it is. All proper games update old models for free

Yes, but as one of the mods said once - Those games, say Arma, eventually end, and make a whole new game, like Arma 2, Arma 3, etc.  Which you end up paying for all over again.

DCS doesn't do that, so, eventually they put out a new module like BS2 or 3, to cover the costs of further development.  And they usually give a nice discount to the people who already own the old one.

[Harlikwin]

12 hours ago, TaxDollarsAtWork said:

Exactly, its thinking like that which makes me believe the people in this community have a bad case of Stockholm syndrome or have never played another video game in their lives

 

IDK, DCS is basically a living ecosystem at this point. So at some point I'd say its nice for the Devs to update (At least graphically and systems wise where appropriate) the older modules to whatever latest standards that exist. I personally liked the approach of a free gfx upgrade, and then a paid upgrade for new systems, though it seems like we aren't getting much on the latter.

 

[Harlikwin]

On 2/28/2021 at 11:20 PM, S.E.Bulba said:

#481-ФЗ (December 30, 2020).

 

Well, after "google translating this" and wading through it about 95% of it seems to be concerned with who is or isn't a "foreign agent" (spy?). There was 1 short paragraph in it about military stuff. Then it weirdly moves to "political protests/activity".

 

"The list of information in the field of military, military-technical activities of the Russian Federation, which, when received by a foreign source, can be used against the security of the Russian Federation, is determined by the federal executive body in the field of security. other property or organizational and methodological assistance). The list of information in the field of military, military-technical activities of the Russian Federation, which, when received by a foreign source, can be used against the security of the Russian Federation, is determined by the federal executive body in the field of security."

 

So, while I'm certainly not a lawyer, seems imply that ED could "get permission" as to what things that "can't be used against the security of the Russian Federation" (i.e. at a guess old tech/modules)

 

Or alternately, and this is where the multiple pages of definitions of "foreign agents/non profits etc) get sticky. If a 3rd party does it, then ED might be in the clear, as long as they don't provide "ANY" help to that dev in terms of sending them info.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 2, 2021 by Harlikwin

[3WA]

Yeah, I read it too.  As you say, it's all about "spys".  Just that one little paragraph about the military, and it's VERY VAGUE.  Doesn't seem like a real impediment.  Just a "ask us for permission" before you do something.  I'm sure that's the same in any government or government involved company.  So I don't see what the problem is.  Especially with old equipment like the Igla.  Hell, they display aircraft like the Ka-52 at public airshows!  It's no secret what's in it, or how 95% of the stuff on it works.

 

If they were afraid of foreign governments getting information on it, they would keep it hidden away.