BS3 still happening?

[GGTharos]

7 minutes ago, Taz1004 said:

 

I use the Hellfire mod for Ka-50 because of the AI refusing to fire bug.  AI would fire on all targets with Hellfire instead of Vikhr so I put Hellfires on my wingman.

But when I tried them, I didn't have to lase them all the way to target.  I could change target and ripple it when the Hellfire starts to come down from upward trajectory.  I'm guessing this is incorrect?

 

Do you mean that you were lasing during say the last 5 seconds of flight?   There are things that are right and wrong about this.  Obviously using a mod is of dubious realism quality, and also the hellfire needs specific support from the weapon system for doing what it does, eg. it probably needs to be told that it's going into a LOAL situation etc before launch, it has to be told the laser code (or it's pre-sent on the ground, I don't know) ... 

 

Ignoring all this, it also needs the laser to be on some time before impact, and I don't know what that time is but it's not much - hellfires have a TOF of 30-40 seconds ot he max range IIRC so some planning is needed.

[Taz1004]

13 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

 

Do you mean that you were lasing during say the last 5 seconds of flight?

 

No, first 5 seconds or so of flight.

[GGTharos]

Yeah that's absolutely wrong unless someone else is lasing for terminal.

Edited January 11, 2021 by GGTharos

[Tnt Snipes]

Its really sad to hear about BS3 not coming. Black Shark was always my favorite out of all the helis in dcs, from among the old ones and the new ones that are coming. I do not intend to get the hind and neither the Kiowa (not my cup of tea), will get the AH-64 though, but not too excited on flying a two seater.

I came to read about the BS3 here guys, so please create some noise, stay on the topic, who knows we might get more stuff for the Black Shark.

 

What I expect from DCS for the future of Blackshark, and I would really appreciate if DCS developers read this.
1. Please, work on broken things.

2. Is there a possibility to get the SHKVAL Optic Filter Dial working? At the moment it is set on NO FUNCTION. If you make it functional, we might see things better in various weather conditions.

3. The wind shield viper works, but does not animate washing away the rain drops. The rain drops blind us when in hover. (a $7 truck simulator animates that, then why not in DCS)

4. Interior lamps to work/change angle, like the one on JF-17.

5. No harm is getting Iglas, they are pretty old technology, I dont know which ones are on the Hind, but if the hind is gonna get A/A, then why not something for Black Shark.

Edited January 13, 2021 by snipes
word was repeated

[nessuno0505]

The good thing in DCS is the accuracy of simulation, not a race to find which is the most capable helicopter / aircraft on the battlefield. Otherwise sabre and mig-15 wouldn't have any sense. So maybe the apache will be the most capable? Probably yes, it's the newest too. Does this mean ka-50 (even BS2 as it is now) or mi-24 are completely useless? I say absolutely no.

[QuiGon]

11 hours ago, nessuno0505 said:

The good thing in DCS is the accuracy of simulation, not a race to find which is the most capable helicopter / aircraft on the battlefield. Otherwise sabre and mig-15 wouldn't have any sense. So maybe the apache will be the most capable? Probably yes, it's the newest too. Does this mean ka-50 (even BS2 as it is now) or mi-24 are completely useless? I say absolutely no.

Wise words!

[Crash *]

Buying only one module because it is superior to all others would deprive me of many interesting impressions and differentiated perspectives. Every helicopter or jet has its history, philosophy and reason why it exists. Sometimes it's about money, availability or feasibility and always about politics. Why should I forego with a Mi-24 to thunder low over the forests.

The feeling of steering a real Russian nightmare from the last few decades. I look forward to it. Just as I'm looking forward to the western counterpart of the legend. A different approach and a lot of techno stuff, but no less exciting.

I will definitely buy both. Oh and the BS3 and the Kiowa and ... fingers cross the BO105 (it will happen.)

[3WA]

The problem is, even the Ka-50 is no match for the Longbow.  Much less a Longbow being piloted by a human.

 

Without Igla's and FLIR, there's not much point in it.  The tech is just too old.  The Ka-50 needs a major upgrade for the modern battlefield.

 

We have nothing to FLIR, but FLIR itself.

[QuiGon]

15 minutes ago, 3WA said:

The problem is, even the Ka-50 is no match for the Longbow.  Much less a Longbow being piloted by a human.

 

Without Igla's and FLIR, there's not much point in it.  The tech is just too old.  The Ka-50 needs a major upgrade for the modern battlefield.

 

We have nothing to FLIR, but FLIR itself.

 

You know, there are other battlefields than the modern battlefield...

Edited January 14, 2021 by QuiGon

[GGTharos]

...Where they don't have longbows?

 

But that aside, nothing is stopping you from using tactics to deal with your disadvantage.  So far you are lucky that there's no rotor detection by radars in DCS, so you can move around without being detected by radar at certain speeds.   And of course with terrain masking you can reposition, try to figure out where they're coming from etc.    Vikhrs have quite the reach but, yes, if you don't surprise them you're at a disadvantage, that's just how it goes. 

[3WA]

7 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

if you don't surprise them you're at a disadvantage, that's just how it goes.

Exactly.  It's hard enough to get the shkval to lock on ANY air target, sometimes impossible.  But when you are surprised, or the enemy has gotten too close, you're only hope of surviving a fatal encounter with the AI (or a skilled player) is a quick shot with a fire and forget missile, like an Igla.  It just might buy you enough time to break for cover.

 

And yes, I prefer the modern battlefield.  Not much interest in WW2 or Cold War Era.

[GGTharos]

5 minutes ago, 3WA said:

Exactly.  It's hard enough to get the shkval to lock on ANY air target, sometimes impossible.  But when you are surprised, or the enemy has gotten too close, you're only hope of surviving a fatal encounter with the AI (or a skilled player) is a quick shot with a fire and forget missile, like an Igla.  It just might buy you enough time to break for cover.

 

But you aren't getting an Igla.  Use the gun or hide or both.  He doesn't have such a weapon either, though he might have a far easier time of putting weapons on you.  And in any case, if you're surprised, you're dead.  The Igla won't save you, he's already got weapons on you.  That's what 'surprised' means, not 'omg I suddenly spotted him but I can still do something about it!'.

 

So while you should worry about survivability if you're jumped, the point was that you should be planning to do that to them.

Edited January 14, 2021 by GGTharos

[Volk.]

3 hours ago, 3WA said:

We have nothing to FLIR, but FLIR itself.

I like what you did there.

 

But not sure I agree with your intent. While there's that rumour of the V-80/Ka-50 having tricked the West by painting on fake windows to make them think it was an helo-hunting helo, that's never what the Black Shark nor Apache were built for. They're there to hunt tanks/armour/soft ground units. The ability to engage air-to-air is a plus, not a core role.

 

If the Apache gets the radar - which is to be seen, then it will pick up some stuff, you're just hoping that stuff are contacts you actually want to shoot at. There's a fair chance you may get the D but not the Longbow radar, in which case the Apache is hunting you with - wait for it - a contrast locking system, painting you with a laser and having the Hellfire ride in. If he has a spotter lasing for him, he can do it from concealment, otherwise he has to expose the bottom of his nose, same as you. If I understood correctly the Hellfires have some logic to go towards the last lasing point if the laser is terminated, but against a moving helo that's useless. ie. for all intensive purposes the Hellfire is then a slower-moving, more expensive Vikhr. We might be getting the AGM-114 K2A has a frag sleeve like the Vikhrs.

 

The Hellfire might have a smaller warhead, and typically an Apache that wants to be mobile will only carry 8, but a direct hit from a Hellfire or Vikhr will down another chopper, and you have ample and I wouldn't think those matters number unless you're in an extended "Air-Quake" of helos. The only slight advantage may well be that fragmentation sleeve on a Vikhr can easily take out a tailrotor of an Apache, while the Ka has no tail rotor.

 

The Apache has FLIR on it's side, a front-seater that can dedicate most of his attention to acquisition and the Kamov has to rise up a little further from when you spot the top rotor (if you can even see that).

 

Long story short, other than spotting, which is going to be hard anyway - if you've seen those FLIR camera resolutions back then on targets not under 2km it's not that easy if you're not trained to look for stuff. There's other things on agility, etc. but it boils down to who spots who first, which is mostly pilot skill, mixed with a bit of luck. If you were spotted and launched at while in a hover it's probably tickets. The Kamov is not necessarily lagging in a "dogfight", and more importantly, they weren't designed to take each other out like 2 interceptors were.

[Volk.]

Also, importantly, if an Apache & Shark were to dogfight, and run out of munitions, the Shark can still charge up and utilise deadly "Tail-Slap" maneuver it can limp away from.

[cordite]

If the model has the Longbow mast, why wouldn’t ED equip it with Longbow radar?

[QuiGon]

15 hours ago, GGTharos said:

...Where they don't have longbows?

 

Yeah, Chechnya for example.

 

 

6 hours ago, cordite said:

If the model has the Longbow mast, why wouldn’t ED equip it with Longbow radar?

 

Because ED might be missing the required documentation/clearance.

Edited January 15, 2021 by QuiGon

[kotor633]

Just because it's the AH-64D doesn't mean that the Longbow Radar is always mounted (if you can believe the reports on the Internet).

 

But isn't this a thread about BS3...?

[Crash *]

vor 44 Minuten schrieb kotor633:

But isn't this a thread about BS3...?

With pleasure. Let's go back to BS3.

Since the moderator occasionally reads along here, I would like to ask the question again whether we can get a pilot's body in BS3.

Even if many of you are not interested, for me and many others it is INCOMPLETE without a pilot body.

[Rogue Trooper]

On 12/29/2020 at 12:15 PM, ResonantCard1 said:

 

Is this the same "on hold" that the Phantom ended up in?

 

 

Yeah I think the same. The Hind will come before the Apache because they have to polish Multicrew and the AI, but the Apache is more likely to come first. And if it comes first, why even bother with BS3? It'll just be a waste of money for ED to make because just a handful of players (Ka-50 enthusiasts) are going to buy it, the rest are going to stick to the Apache

BS3 is important as it offers Redfor a far more capable machine whilst Bluefor gains the very capable Apache.

It is about balance, and whilst the BS3 is not quite up to the Apaches capabilities it will offer a good stop gap until the next Russian advanced Heavy attack chopper.

Us Chopper boys like some sort of equality in our sim.

 

The Hind does not compute between these two technologically advanced weapons.

Edited January 15, 2021 by Rogue Trooper

[ResonantCard1]

On 1/13/2021 at 10:46 PM, nessuno0505 said:

The good thing in DCS is the accuracy of simulation, not a race to find which is the most capable helicopter / aircraft on the battlefield. Otherwise sabre and mig-15 wouldn't have any sense. So maybe the apache will be the most capable? Probably yes, it's the newest too. Does this mean ka-50 (even BS2 as it is now) or mi-24 are completely useless? I say absolutely no.

Except they're absolutely useless now. If you're given the choice to take a Ka-50 or an Apache, unless you really really really like the Ka-50 there's 0 reason to use it over the Apache. Everything the Ka-50 does, the Apache does it 10x better. The sensor? The Apache's is just better. It doesn't just have better gimball limits, it also has FLIR. The missiles? The Hellfire is objectively better than the Vikhr (LOAL/Fire and forget/radar guided). The gun? Better angles than the Ka-50's and much more ammo. The helmet-mounted sight? This is something the Ka-50 does better, actually. Because the Apache doesn't have an HMS, it has a full blown HMD that displays flight data, can cue sensors, the gun, and even display FLIR imagery. I don't think there's any contest. Historical relevancy? The Ka-50 is historically irrelevant unless you're roleplaying the 2nd Chechen War. The Apache has fought in all major wars since its introduction and has saved countless lives by providing fire support to troops on the ground. It was the machine to fire the first shots of ODS, it was there in OIF, it is still there in Afghanistan. Maybe the Ka-50 could fit older "what-if" scenarios? No, the Ka-50 entered service in the 90s. The Apache is at minimum 10 years older than that, so even then you should take the Apache. The only use of the Ka-50 at the moment is to be the Red counterpart of the Apache, and, as usual, it just became completely irrelevant because Blue has machines that aren't even on the same planet capabilities-wise. Besides, PVP sucks so there's really no reason to play the Ka-50 anymore

[Mars Exulte]

@ResonantCard1

Yes, yes, we know you like to stat compare and minmax your PvP, leave alone that only in DCS AirQuake servers will two helos EVER actually fight in the first place, or be used against aircraft in general @@ Literally none of any of that actually matters in any relevant capacity.

[sLYFa]

1 hour ago, ResonantCard1 said:

ED has already sold a reskin for 50 bucks (Kuznetsov)

Along with the best replica of a modern US nuclear aircraft carrier, you should mention that too.

DCS is not about bringing us the most capable machines or competitive gameplay, there is other software for that

[notproplayer3]

@ResonantCard1

It seems you are very vocal about your opinions and you are free to do as you wish but please don't state your opinion as if they are facts. 

21 minutes ago, ResonantCard1 said:

If you're given the choice to take a Ka-50 or an Apache, unless you really really really like the Ka-50 there's 0 reason to use it over the Apache.

0 reason you say ? Zero reason to you perhaps but for me here are some reasons:

The ka50 is a single seat aircraft which, depending on ED's implementation of the AI gunner may be an advantage gameplay and enjoyment wise over the apache. 

Secondly the ka50 is excellent in ground attack if you know how to operate it regardless of if the apache is better or not. As zhukov said above me, comparing both side to side doesn't really change a lot to the fact that both are capable in the ground attack role and it is largely irrelevant to suppose one will be fighting another.

These two reasons are pretty superficial, yes, but I also believe people fly what they like to fly.

It ain't solely about competitivity, both helos are different and different people are going to enjoy one more than the other. Why else would there be many types of older planes in DCS then ? If I apply your logic I could very well say that why is there a mirage 2000 when there is a f16 that is better at the air defense role ? Why is there a f14 when there is a f/a-18 that is easier to operate and has more capability ? People fly what they like to fly and it seems to me that you think nobody can like the ka50 when compared to the iconic ah64. I think you're very mistaken. 

I still love and will always love the ka50 regardless because I know what it can do and if there is something better like the ah64, I don't care, it doesn't make the ka50 less awesome in my eyes. This is why I strongly disagree with your point of view.

I just want good simulations of aircraft I admire, the ka50 being of them (and don't get me started on the mig29a you fervently didn't want to have). This is what DCS is to me.

 

Ohh, almost forgot to disclose that all of this is obviously my opinion just as what you said was yours (which I respect).

 

[ResonantCard1]

5 minutes ago, notproplayer3 said:

@ResonantCard1

It seems you are very vocal about your opinions and you are free to do as you wish but please don't state your opinion as if they are facts. 

0 reason you say ? Zero reason to you perhaps but for me here are some reasons:

The ka50 is a single seat aircraft which, depending on ED's implementation of the AI gunner may be an advantage gameplay and enjoyment wise over the apache. 

Secondly the ka50 is excellent in ground attack if you know how to operate it regardless of if the apache is better or not. As zhukov said above me, comparing both side to side doesn't really change a lot to the fact that both are capable in the ground attack role and it is largely irrelevant to suppose one will be fighting another.

These two reasons are pretty superficial, yes, but I also believe people fly what they like to fly.

It ain't solely about competitivity, both helos are different and different people are going to enjoy one more than the other. Why else would there be many types of older planes in DCS then ? If I apply your logic I could very well say that why is there a mirage 2000 when there is a f16 that is better at the air defense role ? Why is there a f14 when there is a f/a-18 that is easier to operate and has more capability ? People fly what they like to fly and it seems to me that you think nobody can like the ka50 when compared to the iconic ah64. I think you're very mistaken. 

I still love and will always love the ka50 regardless because I know what it can do and if there is something better like the ah64, I don't care, it doesn't make the ka50 less awesome in my eyes. This is why I strongly disagree with your point of view.

I just want good simulations of aircraft I admire, the ka50 being of them (and don't get me started on the mig29a you fervently didn't want to have). This is what DCS is to me.

 

Ohh, almost forgot to disclose that all of this is obviously my opinion just as what you said was yours (which I respect).

 

While it's true that the modules certainly exist, I don't see many of those "older and less capable" ones being flown in the servers I frequent. Literally 90% of the players spend their time in the Hornet or the Viper, undoubtly because they're the most modern and capable ones. Sure, there's a lot of people very interested on them and that's why they fly them, but most of the time it's because they can erase whole SAM sites with a single press of a button and they love that. And you can argue all you want that a simulator isn't about the capabilities but about the plane. That's 100% true, but it's not the case for DCS. Remember in DCS developers, such as ED, have added stuff to their modules that they shouldn't have just for gameplay or capabilities purposes. Look at the F-16, with it's 4x HARMs (which it shouldn't have, strictly speaking, because it wasn't possible on the F-16CM Block 50 in USAF/ANG service ca. 2007. Maybe in other F-16s it was, but not in this particular one) and its Triple Maverick racks which afaik were never actually a thing because it damaged the airframe and the software didn't recognize it fully. And yet we have them, because how is people supposed to enjoy their plane if they can't erase whole armored columns and SAM sites from the face of Earth on a single sortie? Capabilities are definitely a very major factor in the DCS community, there's no changing that. That's why the less-capable modules are almost forgotten, why the Ka-50 will become completely irrelevant, and why the Hind will be dead on arrival. The Apache just does their job so much better that in the minds of most people, there will be no reason to take them. Add to that the fact that both the Ka-50 and the Hind are "the enemy's" helicopters, while the Apache is the one that flies around saving the soldiers' asses. 

[GGTharos]

What stops you from doing any of that in a Su-25T?

 

Yes, people like those airframes more, and this is why ED modeled and sold them.  It's a good business move.  If you follow good heli tactics, the differences between the Ka-50 and AH-64 are relatively minimized in the daytime.

And how do you mean Ah-64 vs Mi-24 or Ka-50 is a 'no-go'?   Let's start with heli tactics which say 'avoid other helis or really anything that's in the air'

 

The funny thing is that you're basically complaining that you can't 'erase a whole sam site with the press of a button' in your own airframe but you're trying to make it look like it's somehow a lower form of sport on the parts of those owners.    But there you are, sitting in your Ka-50 wiping out effectively defenseless ground units because well, AI.

 

The facts here are that the simulation itself just doesn't handle this part of combat well, period.  There is a lot of change that has to happen to SAM AI (really, ground AI overall) that would allow them to apply counter-measures in a planned way, and the same goes for flying AI who should be able to adjust timing for attacks etc to do simultaneous attacks without having to stick to the heavily hard-coded ME way of doing things.   You're complaining about all the wrong things.

 

Want Russian hardware to be more popular or at least more used?  Well, you do something about it, ED isn't about to try and start changing what people decide to like or not.

Edited January 17, 2021 by GGTharos