Mig-29 Flight model.

[ny3d1]

A question regarding the "Feel" of the Mig-29. Is it really this sensitive?? I've flown the Su-27, F-16, F-18 and they all feel a lot more believable than the Mig-29. I don't want to use the term "realistic" since I'm not a qualified fighter pilot, so I use the term "believable". Anyway, is this normal?? Is the Mig-29 flight model correct??

Edited January 21, 2021 by ny3d1

[Cmptohocah]

There are a number of threads concerning this topic.

For me it feels super weird on takeoffs and landings. Also tends to go crazy at high AoA.

[SharkWizard]

Remember that F-16, Su-27 and F-18 all have fly by wire systems.

The MiG-29 9.12 and 9.13 on the other hand do not have a fly by wire system. They have a electro-hydraulic system assisted with dampers so you have pretty much close to direct input to the flight surfaces.  

[Mike_Romeo]

Actually it is arcording to this document https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/upload/medialibrary/2e0/MiG-29 CFD Case Study EN.pdf. Also the MiG-29 use a professional flight model like every other expensiv plane too by ED

Edited January 21, 2021 by Mike_Romeo

[Seaeagle]

The real MiG-29 uses an artificial "feel" system, which is dependant on flight regime. So e.g. during landing, the flight controls are lighter and I suspect that its this replication that makes it seem overly sensitive in the sim. 

[TotenDead]

21.01.2021 в 16:23, SharkWizard сказал:

Remember that F-16, Su-27 and F-18 all have fly by wire systems.

The MiG-29 9.12 and 9.13 on the other hand do not have a fly by wire system. They have a electro-hydraulic system assisted with dampers so you have pretty much close to direct input to the flight surfaces.  

F-15 lacks FBW and still flies OK

[sylkhan]

The main problem of the mig 29 Fm is the excessive oscillation on the pitch/yaw axis, it acts like a yoyo or a spring, up down, up down, up down,....

On some circonstances it makes the Mig uncontrollable, and kill all the joy to fly this fabulous plane.

Dogfighting with this plane is very hard in DCS, aiming the bandit is sometime a nightmare.

All real life pilot have said that the MIg is a very easy plane to fly, the opposite of DCS.

Who is right, real life pilots or DCS devs ?

This unwanted and unrealistic behavior need to be corrected.

Edited January 24, 2021 by sylkhan

[Svend_Dellepude]

A real pilot has a 50cm stick mounted on the floor which has a very large movement in comparison to a desktop mounted joystick.

[Cmptohocah]

1 hour ago, Svend_Dellepude said:

A real pilot has a 50cm stick mounted on the floor which has a very large movement in comparison to a desktop mounted joystick.

Unfortunately the pilot needs to "jerk" the stick all over in order to fly the MiG-29 in DCS. Any smooth movements of the stick will cause oscillations.

One other thing that happens on the MiG-29 during the takeoff roll is that at one point the plane decides that 10 degrees pitch up is not sufficient enough for takeoff and drops like a rock back on to to the runway - sudden loss of lift or something similar. All in all, quite a poor experience.

[sylkhan]

2 hours ago, Svend_Dellepude said:

A real pilot has a 50cm stick mounted on the floor which has a very large movement in comparison to a desktop mounted joystick.

What do you know about my joystick ?

and why this problem does not occur with other non FBW planes, + the mig29 has a special dampening system.

[Svend_Dellepude]

I don't know anything about your joystick and I don't know what other modules you are refering to.

[Ironhand]

FWIW (probably not much), if you compare the Su-27's behavior flown in direct control to that of the MiG-29, the two are quite similar with the exception of a bit of dampening in the MiG-29. The flight regime does feel a bit squirrely to me, length of the flight stick notwithstanding. God help me, if you sneeze.

 

 

2 hours ago, Cmptohocah said:

One other thing that happens on the MiG-29 during the takeoff roll is that at one point the plane decides that 10 degrees pitch up is not sufficient enough for takeoff and drops like a rock back on to to the runway - sudden loss of lift or something similar.

I've never experienced this, though I seldom use anything but full mil power for takeoff. But, there is, IIRC, something in the manual about the nose dropping as the louvers close (?) during the takeoff roll. Is this by any chance the issue?

Edited January 24, 2021 by Ironhand

[HWasp]

MiG_29Mozd.trk

[Cmptohocah]

3 hours ago, HWasp said:

MiG_29Mozd.trk 3.66 MB · 2 downloads

Very, very impressive flying!
Makes me wonder if I just suck in flying in general

[HWasp]

Thanks!

 

The 29 needs some patience and practice, then it is a joy to fly. Gunnery is really difficult though, I agree,  can't just do those high AoA snapshots easily like the F-15/F-18/M2000.

 

What really is important imo. is the correct trim position. 

 

Very subjective opinion on my part, but since it was brought up, I think that the F-15 FM is completely sterile compared to the other planes, even the full fbw ones. I don't doubt the performance, but having a flight control system that perfect.... Nothing bad can ever happen to me in the F-15 regardless how hamfisted I throw the stick around. Maybe that is the less realistic behaviour?

[draconus]

31 minutes ago, HWasp said:

Nothing bad can ever happen to me in the F-15 regardless how hamfisted I throw the stick around. Maybe that is the less realistic behaviour?

However hard is that aircraft IRL there's no g-induced damage model currently implemented for it.

[Ironhand]

HWasp, nice flying, indeed. Enjoyed the show.

 

8 hours ago, HWasp said:

What really is important imo. is the correct trim position

That is certainly true. The closer you are to perfectly trimmed, the more difficult the nose is to control. I’ve found that you have far better control with some nose down trim so that there is always tension on the stick. In that setting you feel much less like you’re standing on a balance ball, especially in landing configuration.

Edited January 25, 2021 by Ironhand

[dundun92]

9 hours ago, HWasp said:

Nothing bad can ever happen to me in the F-15 regardless how hamfisted I throw the stick around. Maybe that is the less realistic behaviour?

The F-15 is described as being that easy to fly and forgiving IRL with very few adverse characteristics like that, so no thats not unrealistic. And ive been able to induce plenty of "bad stuff" from intentional ham fisted flying, such as flatspins and such.

[Hodo]

The MiG-29 is a beast in real life according former pilots.  It is a lot of power and very light.  I love this fighter but I can't fly it well at all.  I try.... But it is by far my worst module.  

 

 

[Top Jockey]

On 1/25/2021 at 10:17 AM, HWasp said:

Thanks!

 

The 29 needs some patience and practice, then it is a joy to fly. Gunnery is really difficult though, I agree,  can't just do those high AoA snapshots easily like the F-15/F-18/M2000.

 

What really is important imo. is the correct trim position. 

 

Very subjective opinion on my part, but since it was brought up, I think that the F-15 FM is completely sterile compared to the other planes, even the full fbw ones. I don't doubt the performance, but having a flight control system that perfect.... Nothing bad can ever happen to me in the F-15 regardless how hamfisted I throw the stick around. Maybe that is the less realistic behaviour?

 

Completely agree.

But it seems, part of those specific behaviors are also the very nature of both jets however...

 

If I'm not mistaken, in real life the F-15C does hold the better T/W ratio and wing loading values, than: F-14 A/B, F-16C, F/A-18C, MiG-29A and even the Su-27...

(Only the Mirage 2000 does have better wing loading values than the Eagle.)

 

Also wrote here in the past, that indeed the Eagle's nose pointing capability / authority does feel easier than the MiG-29's one.

Probably because of the AoA limiter in the MiG's flight control system, which automatically produce a pitch down input command almost always the stick is pulled back (or something like this)... causing a tracking guns solution to frequently end up in a wobbling / oscillating nose motion.

[Svend_Dellepude]

I have a button assigned to permanently override the limiter.

[Svend_Dellepude]

It seems a bit weird that the joy axis is scaled about 2:1 when pushing the stick from center compared to pulling from center. Maybe that is why ppl have issues with PIO if you trim perfectly for landing. 

I programmed my WH to have full virtual deflection when pushed about halfway. It seems more intuitive.

[Mateo]

21 hours ago, Svend_Dellepude said:

It seems a bit weird that the joy axis is scaled about 2:1 when pushing the stick from center compared to pulling from center.

I have checked it today and I agree. If usuall pilot have a short stick and equal deflection & forces for pushing and pulling from center it will be in conflict wih axis scaled 2:1. I tried to artifically move the center a bit AFT direction and it made great effect in feeling the aircraft, it will also result in more intuitive take off and landing. The only disadventage is trim reset. If we reset the trim, center position will be not at the real center but at the center which is artifically moved backward. It all depends what price we will pay to be close to realism.

[The_Tau]

On 2/23/2021 at 8:56 PM, Svend_Dellepude said:

I have a button assigned to permanently override the limiter.

is that override limiter even working in mig29a?

[Svend_Dellepude]

1 hour ago, The_Tau said:

is that override limiter even working in mig29a?

Yes it is. But you need to keep it pressed. A momentary button won't work..