investigating sea / gmt clutter

[Shadow KT]

There is no clutter on GMT/SEA modes and it can be used as a wallhack. Hoping to see a realistic representation of GMT/SEA.... or a way to disable it, server side.
 

 

[BIGNEWY]

please explain what you mean sorry.

 

if possible a short track replay

 

thanks

[VFA41_Lion]

I believe he means the radar is picking out clear targets through a giant forest.

[Northstar98]

20 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

please explain what you mean sorry.

 

if possible a short track replay

 

thanks

 

The RADAR is seeing targets that should not be within its LOS - the trees should be somewhat opaque to the RADAR, and should obscure some of the moving contacts.

[Burner1111]

Hey Northstar98,

I have the same issue with GM/GMT mode. I opened separately also a bug report of this.

 

Br.

[Northstar98]

15 minutes ago, Burner1111 said:

Hello gentlemen,

 

Thank You ED for this amazing update for Hornet. I really love the GMT mode.

 

I have an issue with GMT and GM mode, when I'm locking a target with SCS Right, as Matt instructs, I get the track lock but the background is flickering? When I press "TDC depress", all is OK. Is this correct, as I don't see this from Matt's video and for me, it seems a bug? Or, it's something wrong with my setup?

I used non MOD and modded installations, both of them have issue. FXO and Metashaders were cleaned.

 

Thanks!

 

 

Flickering GMT-GM.trk 372.43 kB · 0 downloads

 

Same issue with SEA mode. 

 

EDIT: Why the merge? I understand the GMT/SEA mode flickering being merged but that and Shadow KT's OP are completely separate issues.

 

Edited January 27, 2021 by Northstar98

[Shadow KT]

What I mean, is that GMT/SEA mode is greatly overperforming  and is not effected by anything, except detecting ground units, which move. No matter, if they are behind cover or not. No clutter. The current implementation works, as if everything is in vacuum and only the ground units move, so the picture is crystal clear, where in real life it is borderline useless. Sea should be even worse, unless the water surface is a solid object/made out of glass. 

Adding a track, showcasing how GMT tracks targets behind buildings and as yo can see in my video, tracks between trees as well. You just have to flip on your radar over the battlefield, and boom, you have the location of all moving vehicles. Step back from trying to create dynamic scenarios/missions/battlefields.

AG Wallhack.trk

Here is an image of how GMT looks like on an F-16 (This is from a promotional video, so results are probably a bit overestimated as well):



The picture is taken from this video @7:42 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aq5HXTGUHGI

I am sure all your Hornet/Falcon SMEs will agree with me on this. 

You already have ground maps for every map, I am sure even if the task would be performance heavy (which I don't think it will, looking at all the other features present), there is a way to go around the problem and create artificial noise layers, you can put on top of the picture, where forests or water is supposed to be, depending on wind.

If ED doesn't plan on implementing a realistic representation of these modes, could Mission Creators get a tool to disable this on mission level ?

Edited January 27, 2021 by Shadow KT

[Shadow KT]

2 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

Flicker is reported 

 

thanks 

Can my thread be unmerged ? It has nothing to do with flickering issues.

[BIGNEWY]

fixed sorry about that. 

 

We are looking into it. 

 

thanks

[diditopgun]

SEA:
_No earth curvature simulation , at 50ft ASL you can track at >60nm.
_Radar displays a track for all object placed over the sea, even if it's a boat at 0knt "docked" at an harbour's pier. 

GMT:
_No buildings or forest masking.
_Civilian traffic undetected.

 

Currently AG radar is the eye of Sauron. ^^

Edited January 28, 2021 by diditopgun

[Swift.]

 

The furthest away track is a speedboat fyi. 

http://skysailtraining.co.uk/dipping_distance.htm

Take dipping heights as a simplified example. At 10ft (shown), an object would have to be 95m tall to be seen at 24NM. Obviously with radar you get lensing and such but it serves as an example I think.

Edited January 28, 2021 by Swiftwin9s

[Ahmed]

Submarines are also detectable at 80NM, beyond the horizon, in 18+ foot swells (200kt wind). GMT/SEA have probably been too early accessed. Hoping that it gets polished for the release.

[Northstar98]

We really need to be moving away from flat maps and instead go be moving towards ones that are shaped like a spherical cap - I hope to god the Marianas map is.

 

Otherwise, it looks like ED forgot to add in their RADAR workaround for the flat maps.

[dorianR666]

11 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

I hope to god the Marianas map is.

It certainly wont be.

Adding spherical maps to DCS would require entirely redoing the mission Lua API. Otherwise mission creators wouldnt even be able to compute correct distance between two units lel.

 

Just adding the same "filter" as AA radar and ground radio beacons already have, would be enough.

[Northstar98]

On 1/28/2021 at 8:40 AM, dorianR666 said:

It certainly wont be.

Adding spherical maps to DCS would require entirely redoing the mission Lua API. Otherwise mission creators wouldnt even be able to compute correct distance between two units lel.

 

It really isn't that difficult, the calculation is trivial to do so long as you know your latitude and longitude - it could even be made map specific for missions on specific maps.

 

Quote

Just adding the same "filter" as AA radar and ground radio beacons already have, would be enough.

 

Except that ED have plans to do a world map (even if it is a long way away), and right now visual LOS doesn't line up with radio LOS (when it should).

Edited April 11, 2021 by Northstar98

[dorianR666]

7 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

Except that ED have plans to do a world map (even if it is a long way away)

They have a lot of plans.

 

7 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

It really isn't that difficult, the calculation is trivial to do so long as you know your latitude and longitude - it could even me made map specific for missions on specific maps.

My point isnt the calculation. Its the necessity of changing the API and breaking compatibility with existing scripts.

 

7 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

right now visual LOS doesn't line up with radio LOS (when it should).

Thats intentional. Visual LOS on flat map cannot be bent to act like round map, but radio/radar easily can be made to act as if on round while on flat. Better something than nothing.

Edited January 28, 2021 by dorianR666

[BIGNEWY]

Hi all, 

 

I have reported the low altitude scan still being able to see targets at 80nm. 

 

Regarding the noise or not being able to see targets in a forest we are looking into it and will speak with our SME's

 

Below is how it should work.

Sea returns and side lobe returns from nearby land masses are automatically rejected by the radar in the SEA mode.

GMT mode also provides a synthetic display of target returns similar to the SEA mode display.

The only target returns displayed in the GMT mode, are from moving targets (trucks or tanks moving down a road). Ground and fixed target returns are not displayed.

 

thanks

[Recluse]

14 hours ago, diditopgun said:

 

 

Currently AG radar is the eye of Sauron. ^^

 

LOL.. Call me UNSERIOUS but after years of NO GROUND RADAR, I am loving it

[Ahmed]

11 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Regarding the noise or not being able to see targets in a forest we are looking into it and will speak with our SME's

 

Thanks for looking into it. Your SMEs will definitely know better, but there are several accounts online on how useful GMT really is. For example:

 

Quote

While I maintained heading at 280 KIAS/FL350 kft, Dave selected the Ground Moving Target Indicator (GMTI) mode on the APG-73 and we started hunting for some road traffic along the coastline at about 40-50 NMI slant range. Within seconds a row of tracks appeared across the scope, as expected outlining the Princes Highway near Colac. Some tracks intermittently appeared and disappeared, as trees blocked the line of sight between the radar and moving vehicles. Dave attempted a single target track on at least two targets but the foliage produced repeated dropouts - as much as we tried we couldn't cheat the physics of radar absorption. 

 

from http://www.ausairpower.net/SuperBug.html

Edited January 28, 2021 by Ahmed