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Is there any possibility of automatic refueling?


magman
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  After many hours practicing aerial refueling, I quit, I feel overwhelmed and frustrated.
  It is almost impossible without turbulence, with the turbulence activated even worse.

  I can land on the aircraft carrier even in bad weather conditions and at night with almost no problems after
a long time practicing, but with the aerial refueling with more hours trying it becomes an impossible task.
  I can not connect to the hose practically never and the few times that I get it no longer than 2 seconds connected.
  It stop being a beautiful challenge to become a nightmare.

  I know that one of the most difficult tasks for a real pilot is aerial refueling but without a doubt the most difficult
challenge is landing on the CV.
In DCS the scale of difficulty of refueling exceeds that of landing on aircraft carriers and that is not realistic .
I think the difficulty of air refueling at DCS is disproportionate.
 

  If I can land on an aircraft carrier in case III with guarantees, I should also be able to refuel with guarantees after a few hours practicing,
but it is totally frustrating, there is no learning curve.
 
  When I fly in multiplayer, few people want to fly missions that will include aerial refueling due to this extreme and overrated difficulty. 
It is logical, everyone tries to avoid refueling.
  I have been tempted to buy several campaigns for my modules but I know that they will include air refueling in some missions and I do not want
 to get frustrated so at the moment I am not going to buy any.

  ED  IMHO should, to avoid hours of frustration for many of its customers: either calibrate the difficulty of the air refueling or at least give us 
the possibility of automatic air refueling by means of a keyboard key

 

Edited by magman
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Are you using a flight stick?

If so, you should check your axis curves. You want to be able to make very very small corrections, and don't chase the basket. You need to focus on the pylon on the wing,  otherwise you'll over correct,  and have PIO (pilot induced oscillation) and not be successful

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It's not that difficult.

 

You nee practise and an calm hand on throttle and stick.

 

And let me say: If you get it once, you can do it at bad weather, in turns, at night.

 

Just don't give up.

 

 

And I do it my my 12 year old X-52. 😅


Edited by VTJG17_Fire
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Hello,

It's really very challenging routine for real life pilots as well. But it's just a formation flying with tanker. Well, when you fly mission, anyway, you fly a part of route in parade formation, aren't you?

Continue practicing and don't give up. One day you'll make it.
Do your sorties with five tanker rejoins each. Each rejoin should take no longer than ten mins. Take your time, don't haste. If you feel frustration then take a break, pull out from tanker and get some rest.

Don't focus on basket, keep your eyes on the tanker itself. Try to maintain your position relative to the tanker stabilizer or tail, maybe wingtip or engine housing.

Your first goal is just fly alongside with the tanker. Do it for five mins stable. Next goal, try to get close and connect to the basket. Then you can try to increase the time you stay connected.

Good luck and fly safe!

 

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Practice flying in the same pitch at 300 kts behind the tanker just like you fly to catch the ball.  For example, on the Viper its around 300 kts with 3000 ppm fuel flow.  Sounds like you enjoy long missions, so I'll be captain obvious and remind you that you only need to come to a halt to open the ground crew menu to rearm and refuel.  You could easily plan your missions in hops.  Hang in there.

 

Edit: I try to get my tankers at 15000 at 300 kts because I know the Viper performs well at that altitude.   They always seem to chose their own speed, so play with this a bit until you find the sweet spot.


Edited by glide
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Am I missing them, or are there no A/A refueling missions under Training in DCS?

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The issue is the time required to practice vs frustration instead of enjoyment. Whereas IRL the Pilot uses peripheral vision, his inner ear (natural accelerometer) and operates the switches by feel... Especially the radios with a button and talking, in DCS we cope with the "realistic" difficulty, plus a lot of additional problems, like making calls on the keyboard, need to grab the mouse to operate switches, no peripheral vision to hold a picture of the tanker, just a look through a small "screen", no feeling of acceleration or declaration, a tanker that does not communicate turns and a boom operator with a sadistic twist...

Yes, you can learn to do this, as you can see through the people doing it in DCS. No, it isn't as difficult as in real life it is more difficult, takes a lot of precious me-time and is frustrating as hell. So with "Start-up" cheats, "Labels", "Easy comms", etc. what is the problem preventing a simple option to check that creates a larger hitbox for contact, or an "auto-refueling cheat" where the AI takes over and does the refueling or even the "fly inside 300 ft of the tanker and and hold a key" to refuel solution suggested by magman?

The important part is to keep it optional like all the other features.

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Magman, if you want auto-refuel, just click "unlimited fuel" in the options and don't mess with it.

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2 hours ago, magman said:


  ED  IMHO should, to avoid hours of frustration for many of its customers: either calibrate the difficulty of the air refueling or at least give us 
the possibility of automatic air refueling by means of a keyboard key

 

 

When you say many, be careful. Seems there is a very small minority of users that have an issue. Not a fan of changing things for the minority dude! If it were easy, it would just be the way. As someone mentioned above, you should practice. Can you provide a video of what you are doing? That would help. The guys that complain about AAR usually are monkey fisting the thing to death. Either that or do not understand form flying. Practice makes perfect, same as football bro!

Or as @Wolf359 said, check unlimited fuel. Problem solved!

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13 hours ago, magman said:

  After many hours practicing aerial refueling, I quit, I feel overwhelmed and frustrated.
  It is almost impossible without turbulence, with the turbulence activated even worse.

  I can land on the aircraft carrier even in bad weather conditions and at night with almost no problems after
a long time practicing, but with the aerial refueling with more hours trying it becomes an impossible task.
  I can not connect to the hose practically never and the few times that I get it no longer than 2 seconds connected.
  It stop being a beautiful challenge to become a nightmare.

  I know that one of the most difficult tasks for a real pilot is aerial refueling but without a doubt the most difficult
challenge is landing on the CV.
In DCS the scale of difficulty of refueling exceeds that of landing on aircraft carriers and that is not realistic .
I think the difficulty of air refueling at DCS is disproportionate.
 

  If I can land on an aircraft carrier in case III with guarantees, I should also be able to refuel with guarantees after a few hours practicing,
but it is totally frustrating, there is no learning curve.
 
  When I fly in multiplayer, few people want to fly missions that will include aerial refueling due to this extreme and overrated difficulty. 
It is logical, everyone tries to avoid refueling.
  I have been tempted to buy several campaigns for my modules but I know that they will include air refueling in some missions and I do not want
 to get frustrated so at the moment I am not going to buy any.

  ED  IMHO should, to avoid hours of frustration for many of its customers: either calibrate the difficulty of the air refueling or at least give us 
the possibility of automatic air refueling by means of a keyboard key

 

 

Gonna have to be blunt here. A2A refueling in DCS is easy. It's easier than getting a good grade from the LSO, and defenitely easier than case III in bad visibility conditions. You shouldn't ask the developers to add what essentially is a cheat code, just so you can accomplish something that isn't mandatory at all.

Also, where's the fun in doing aerial refueling only with the assistance of the game itself?

 

Some thought after reading your post:

 

1. You didn't practice enough, or didn't really practice at all. It's not as rewarding as getting a bomb on target, so people neglect that or quit in frustration and shoot the tanker down. You seem to think that if you can land on the aircraft carrier in DCS, everything else should be easy. It's not the case. 

 

2. Not everyone tries to avoid refueling.. I do it every chance I get. It becomes a very simple task after a while. 

 

3. Can you honestly say that you can reliably do formation flying? Because AAR is formation flying, and most people I've met who can't AAR, usually don't do well when it comes to formation flying in MP.

 

 

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16 hours ago, Sr. said:

Am I missing them, or are there no A/A refueling missions under Training in DCS?

There isnt sadly, or for slot of the more advanced weapon systems. 

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8 hours ago, BarTzi said:

 Because AAR is formation flying, and most people I've met who can't AAR, usually don't do well when it comes to formation flying in MP.

 

Completely agree. It's a solid ground to excel in AAR.

Best practice is to ask your flight lead to make a number of basic maneuvres like a straight flight, steady turns and so on. Fly in parade formation with your lead for as long as possible.

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The F-18 is one of the easiest planes to AAR, I used to do it with the Su-33, and when I tried the Hornet, I made contact and perform AAR on the first try, I could feel like the plane was doing it for me, so if you are not able to do it, is because you didn´t practise enough or you are doing something very wrong, and I´m using a basic attack 3 joystick, nothing fancy🤨

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AAR is one of my favorite things to do in DCS, just behind carrier ops, so I surely wouldn't use an "auto" or "easy" feature - but I do see some value in his suggestion. 

 

The forums are littered with people who, for whatever reason, are massively frustrated by AAR in this game.  It's typically not great business sense to massively frustrate your customers ;).  If an auto option leads more people to explore more aspects of DCS - and ENJOY doing so - that equals more user retention, more modules purchased, more revenue for ED... and we all benefit from that.  I could even see an auto option both motivating people to learn it themselves (because it's pretty damn cool), and HELPING them learn by demonstrating the sight picture.  

 

Hard to see how it's different than auto or warm start options.  Make it controllable on servers etc., and then what's the harm?  The way I see it, how other people play the game has no effect on the enjoyment I get from playing it my way...

 

That said, I'd still encourage everyone to stick with the practice until you get it yourself, because it's fun! 

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I'd say that auto start is just to speed up the aircraft get ready to fly (tried it only once to check this func). So it's not actually a cheat (you can get hot plane as well)

The coming mission cartridge aims the same purpose (to get plane ready to fly and engage real quick).

Auto AAR is like the pilot relief funcs, but is definitely a cheat. No objections but I'd like to get some new features and bug fixes instead.

 

 

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On 2/3/2021 at 10:49 AM, leon737 said:

I'd say that auto start is just to speed up the aircraft get ready to fly (tried it only once to check this func). So it's not actually a cheat (you can get hot plane as well)

The coming mission cartridge aims the same purpose (to get plane ready to fly and engage real quick).

Auto AAR is like the pilot relief funcs, but is definitely a cheat. No objections but I'd like to get some new features and bug fixes instead.

 

 

+1
I'm old enough to say, not too long ago we longed for sims to reach this point. Realistic start ups and AAR and carrier landings. I played the After Burner game as a kid and others. The aforementioned was all automatic.  Now that we can mostly simulate that reality, there are guys that want to take easy street.

Yes, AAR can be frustrating, but the reward is great when you get it right! 

This no knock on anyone. It just blows the mind that people don't know how fortunate we are now! Practice and have fun with the difficulty dude! Isn't that what you paid for? Otherwise, we'd use that "other"  arcade one!
 


Edited by Jackjack171
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On 2/1/2021 at 10:56 PM, Jackjack171 said:

Not a fan of changing things for the minority dude! If it were easy, it would just be the way.

Me neither, but I am a big fan of options so we can tailor the individual experience.

For example if somebody decides to have a larger, more relaxed "contact"-box, just to counter the 70 EUR Joystick and mouse button fight, I can see no real issue, even in MP.

As an option you can simply switch it to full real, like "easy comms" or "rudder assist". 

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6 hours ago, shagrat said:

Me neither, but I am a big fan of options so we can tailor the individual experience.

For example if somebody decides to have a larger, more relaxed "contact"-box, just to counter the 70 EUR Joystick and mouse button fight, I can see no real issue, even in MP.

As an option you can simply switch it to full real, like "easy comms" or "rudder assist". 

Bro, I am all for options. A man has to have options in life. But the initial request of "make it easy so that I feel better" is a defeated attitude to have. I thought the thrill of DCS was the realism. It certainly brought me here! I would have even pitched ED making a training mission that talks you through it. But the easy street attitude is just something that makes you wonder why people start in the first place. It's like getting signed to an NFL team with no experience and then asking the Coach and other players to not tackle or hit you because you can't take it! It's supposed to be difficult! 

The OP has to practice is my point. ED is free to add cheats or whatever. And the OP has the right to use them. That's cool. It's just amazing to me how some guys want to throw in the towel. 

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It can be done, even with a crappy stick and a throttle (but not without any throttle!). All you need is to know what to look for. Find a visual reference, possibly from YouTube videos, and fly it without looking at the basket at all. I know them for Harrier and Tomcat, haven't tried the Hornet yet, but I will, and I don't anticipate any problems. It works in every jet that can AAR.

 

It's easier in VR, but if you just fly the canopy/HUD cues, it doesn't matter where you are. Focus on one cue, line it up, then close in slowly and smoothly. And before you do, line up in formation with the tanker, and trim up your plane to be able to fly this formation, for a very brief time, completely hands off.


Edited by Dragon1-1
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10 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

I know them for Harrier and Tomcat, haven't tried the Hornet yet, but I will, and I don't anticipate any problems. It works in every jet that can AAR.

 

 

 

Bro, if you can AAR in the Tomcat, you definitely can in the Hornet. I just got the hang in the F-14 a few months ago. That's the most challenging aircraft for me, outside of the F-16 IRT AAR. Rock on my friend!

DO it or Don't, but don't cry about it. Real men don't cry!

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  • 2 weeks later...

One more recommendation, it's hard work practising AAR, and I don't want this to take the fun out of DCS for me.  I add a tanker to all my missions, and I give myself time to make an AAR attempt each flight.  If I don't make it, I carry on to the mission. 

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I was frustrated trying to learn refueling in the Hornet recently and came across this vid where he talks about using part of the AP function to help dampen the controls for a more steady approach and connection to the basket.

This method really helped me.

 

 

Also recently started my first campaign in the Hornet - Rising Squall. I have had one mission so far that has AAR and thankfully it had automated as an option.


Edited by dburne

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I do not post often (or ever) but this topic comes up a lot and it really bugs me to see the "get gud noob!" comments. Before anybody gets their feathers ruffled let me explain:

 

AAR is NOT easy...it may be for some of you but that does not mean it is...For example, I play music. Guitar, Bass, Keys etc. If I told you that playing "Tom Sawyer" by RUSH is easy, that would be true for ME, maybe not for you  but I have been playing music for 35 years. I also have been flight simming about that long, essentially since there were computer flight sims (F117) I have 2,000 hours in FSX (with A2A, Majestic, and other "complex" planes) and hundreds of hours in DCS and IL2. I don't fly MP because 1) my computer is a bit on the old side and B) I am a terrible pilot. I practice AAR quite often and I am now able to semi-reliably refuel the A10 but in the F14 I just can't get it (yeah I know this is about F18, I haven't even tried it yet)...I hope to one day "get gud" but some times I just want to shoot stuff. Again I am not singling any one out or trying to start an argument, everything that people said is valid, check unlimited fuel and practice, practice, practice etc. But just stop with the "it's easy"  and "u no gud at MP" stuff...for some of us it really isn't easy.

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