SAM ammunition

[shomke]

Hi all.

I am just wondering, do SAM launcher have limited ammunition?

For ex. SA-10 launchers have four tubes, so I guess four missiles. Let say a site has four launchers, it should be limited to 16 missiles (enough to decimate my forces...).

Is that the case in DCS, or can they shoot endlessly?

Thanks  

Edited February 10, 2021 by shomke

[WinterH]

They are limited yes.

[LooseSeal]

Yeah, it's basically the only way to destroy an S-300 site when playing Liberation. Swamp it with 30+ HARMs until it runs out.

[shomke]

Good to know. I am also somehow stuck with SA-10 in Liberation. Had been thinking to send out a curtain of 16 cheap F4 to deplete that annoying SA-10 so I could quietly storm it.

More seriously, about Liberation, it would be interesting to have expensive ammo included in the economic system. I guess those SAMs are quite expensive, maybe more than cheapest planes, hellos or ground units...

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by shomke

[Fri13]

2 minutes ago, shomke said:

Good to know. I am also somehow stuck with SA-10 in Liberation. Had been thinking to send out a curtain of 16 cheap F4 to deplete that annoying SA-10 so I could quietly storm it.

More seriously, about Liberation, it would be interesting to have expensive ammo included in the economic system. I guess those SAMs are quite expensive, maybe more than cheapest planes, hellos or ground units...

 

In a properly done S-300 SAM site, you do not have those shooting down your cheap F-4's or any HARMs. The S-300 has own point air defense like few TOR and Tunguska for each direction. You just can't saturate a S-300 site with missiles or fighters as they have cheaper and more capable SAM's there.

The AI in the DCS does not have "i" regardless it being in the acronym. The units will gladly shoot at low priority targets in a manner of "use a cannon to kill a mosquito", and mission designers don't usually make a proper air defense networks as it would include hundreds of units. And this even regardless the SAM sites don't have the capability to be mobile and move between shots or early warnings and threat assessments.

 

Example we don't even have the portable SAM radar repeaters that are size of a backpack, that are distributed around a SAM site radars and connected with cables. Those will repeat the same frequency as the main radar does and purpose is that when the ARM is detected, the main radar can be turned off controlled manner and select one of those repeaters to stay On. It will effectively lure the ARM missiles on them. Why the INS and memory targeting system in ARM can't help as it doesn't know where the target really was in the first place and head on it as it is lured elsewhere.

 

 

[shomke]

Scaring. Looks like in reality SA-10 sites are impossible to destroy... Unless you send Rambo to cut the power cable...  

 

[Northstar98]

Yes, the launchers only have a limited number of missiles.

 

However, if you put just one appropriate truck down (like the GAZ-66, Ural-375, M818 etc), they will continuously replenish so long as they're in range of the vehicle, obviously it takes a while for them to replenish each reload - but in theory they can fire endlessly.

 

A better system would be to implement transloaders or equivalent (where applicable), with either a set amount of reloads (preferably a realistic number), and have the reloads teleport from the reload vehicle to the launcher after a realistic time.

 

 

Spoiler

For an example let's take a look at the I-HAWK PIP Phase 1 SAM system we have currently.

 

As far as missiles are concerned a typical I-HAWK battery consists of the following:

 

6x M192 launchers with 3 ready-to-fire missiles each

3x M501 missile reload tractors - these can hold 3 missiles each, reloading 1 at a time. Obviously 1 of them can only serve 1 launcher at a time.

12x M390 missile transport pallets - these carry 3 reload missiles each.

 

So the entire site in total has 18 missiles ready-to-fire + 36 reloads, with the ability to reload 3 launchers at a time.

 

How it would work is we'd first have to have the M501 and M390 as these are currently missing.

 

Then what would happen is that if an empty M501 is in range of an M390, a missile would teleport from the M390 to the M501 until the M501 is full. Then if an empty/partially empty M192 is in range of an M501, a missile would teleport from the M501 to the M192, one at a time, until the M192 is full.

 

Obviously the time it takes for a missile to teleport across from one thing to the other should be realistic, something like 2-3 minutes per missile.

 

If you wanted to go further, you could have the M501 drive to the appropriate launcher and to the reload pallets, something we should already be able to do in the ME with triggers.

 

Then what you could do is have containers/trucks that can be set-up to carry a certain number of missile reloads/M390s so that when a SAM site is depleted, a reload convoy can be tasked to replenish it (which can also be triggered). The ISO containers can currently be slingloaded, but in future it would be cool to be able to mount them onto a HEMTT flatbed (M977) or inside a tactical/strategic airlift.

 

Obviously the latter part only really makes sense within a dynamic campaign.

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by Northstar98

[Katalan]

Trow away some MK20 from 40K ft and let bomblets do their job...


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[Northstar98]

1 hour ago, Katalan said:

Trow away some MK20 from 40K ft and let bomblets do their job...


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40k!!! Let's hope they don't miss...

[WinterH]

Just now, Northstar98 said:

40k!!!

WAAAAAGH!!! (sorry, couldn't hold myself lol)

[LooseSeal]

3 hours ago, Fri13 said:

The units will gladly shoot at low priority targets in a manner of "use a cannon to kill a mosquito"

 

 

Yeah... I have a Liberation campaign going with a full Syria map in 2010, and my Patriots waste their entire missile stock in the first 5 minutes stupidly and disastrously trying to shoot down the masses of Scuds being launched. Although considering how completely useless the Patriot in DCS is, it doesn't really matter that much.

 

I also wish they wouldn't engage the literal moment an enemy crosses into their engagement area. I hope the updated AI logic is going to include the SAMs. They need to be able to figure out what the chances are of their missile actually reaching the target or not.

[Harker]

 
Yeah... I have a Liberation campaign going with a full Syria map in 2010, and my Patriots waste their entire missile stock in the first 5 minutes stupidly and disastrously trying to shoot down the masses of Scuds being launched. Although considering how completely useless the Patriot in DCS is, it doesn't really matter that much.
 
I also wish they wouldn't engage the literal moment an enemy crosses into their engagement area. I hope the updated AI logic is going to include the SAMs. They need to be able to figure out what the chances are of their missile actually reaching the target or not.

There's an option for SAMs to engage within a certain percentage of their max range. You can set it via Advanced Waypoint Actions in the ME.

[Qiou87]

6 hours ago, Katalan said:

Trow away some MK20 from 40K ft and let bomblets do their job...


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I was going to suggested 50ft run in, pop up and CBU-97 ripple in a Viper. Tried it a few times against S-300 in Liberation, works about 50% of the time. Even if it works, the survival chances were also around 25%, but at least you only sacrifice one aircraft. And running in super low and fast is fun as hell.

[Katalan]

I was going to suggested 50ft run in, pop up and CBU-97 ripple in a Viper. Tried it a few times against S-300 in Liberation, works about 50% of the time. Even if it works, the survival chances were also around 25%, but at least you only sacrifice one aircraft. And running in super low and fast is fun as hell.

Surfing waves... I love it!!


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[Mike_Romeo]

13 hours ago, shomke said:

I am just wondering, do SAM launcher have limited ammunitions?

Actually no if you place a truck within 200m of the launchers. The truck will reload the launchers endlessly but the reload will take a lot of time depending on the SAM. You can read more about this in the DCS manual (DCS World (OpenBeta)\Doc\DCS User Manual EN 2020.pdf) page 311

Edited February 2, 2021 by Mike_Romeo

[Hodo]

I haven't done that mission but I have taken out S-300 sites by coming in at 100ft agl or less as fast as possible with mk82SEs.  Find the radar pop up to 500ft and drop while going as fast as possible.  Pop flares and get back in the weeds and run away.   I can usually pull it off 2 out of 3 times in a Hornet and 3 out of 4 in a Mirage or Harrier.

 

The Harrier is a bit easier.  I use AGM-122s on my pop up and then switch to the SEs right after firing those sidearms.   Release the bombs drop back low popping flares and weaving a bit... But keeping my speed as high as possible. 

 

Loads of fun.

[shomke]

15 hours ago, Hodo said:

I haven't done that mission but I have taken out S-300 sites by coming in at 100ft agl or less as fast as possible with mk82SEs.  Find the radar pop up to 500ft and drop while going as fast as possible.  Pop flares and get back in the weeds and run away.   I can usually pull it off 2 out of 3 times in a Hornet and 3 out of 4 in a Mirage or Harrier.

 

I didn't try that sneaking method yet, but I will! Lot of fun indeed.

Do you take some AI wingmen with you when you do that?

 

[Hodo]

On 2/5/2021 at 3:09 AM, shomke said:

 

I didn't try that sneaking method yet, but I will! Lot of fun indeed.

Do you take some AI wingmen with you when you do that?

 

No I am usually solo.  

[RaisedByWolves]

Ammunition does not need an “s” at the end. Also, more than one aircraft is also called.......aircraft. Not aircrafts.

[Hodo]

2 minutes ago, RaisedByWolves said:

Ammunition does not need an “s” at the end. Also, more than one aircraft is also called.......aircraft. Not aircrafts.

English may not be everyone's first language.

 

Just a tip.

[falcon_120]

On 2/2/2021 at 1:26 PM, Katalan said:

Trow away some MK20 from 40K ft and let bomblets do their job...


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Is this even possible?

[Stearmandriver]

I use low-level tactics against SA-10s in Liberation too.. ripple a string of closely spaced Snakeyes off during a 500ft, max speed run over the site.  It generally works if there's terrain to mask your ingress until you're close.  The CP is your target; kill that and all the SA-10s seem to be down. 

[Katalan]

Is this even possible?

Yesterday I was flying the M2000 at 59000ft... and sometimes I droped some GBU-38 from 40K with the AV8.
I don’t know if it’s possible IRL.


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[Skysurfer]

 

[shomke]

Nice maneuver Skysurfer!