Aerial Refueling

[RentedAndDented]

On 2/4/2021 at 2:28 AM, Stearmandriver said:

Wake is modeled very simplisticly and somewhat unrealistically in DCS.  Basically, from what I've seen it's one effect that interfaces the same way with every module.  No variability seems to exist for relative weights of generating and encountering aircraft, or generating aircraft's configuration or g loading.  A Hornet experiences wake from a straight and level KC-135 pretty much identically to the way a Spitfire experiences wake from another Spitfire in a dogfight.  That's like saying your LSA will be affected identically by wake from a 777 and another LSA .

 

It's distracting / immersion-breaking enough that my inclination would be to leave wake off, but I don't because most servers have it enabled and I want to stay in practice. 

 

But yes - approaching the tanker correctly is the key to avoiding wake.  I don't come from the side as suggested above - maybe that works too - but I come from below, lined up with the basket, and ease up to it as I approach.  There's a sight picture that makes this automatic: put the pod that the hose comes out of between the 2 panes of glass visible at the top of your HUD.  Set it just slightly offset to the right of center.  Then just keep it there as you slowly approach the tanker.  That'll start you well below the tanker when you're farther away, and bring your probe right up to the basket as you approach... and it'll keep you out of the wake (for the most part... you'll still get a little rolling moment but no violent upset).

If you do have a look at the visualisation video you'll see that's it's not as simple as you think. An increase in AOA causes an increase in the size of the vortex which it shows. The link is in the post just above yours. I also think this is actually reflected in your post where you compare a Hornet behind a KC-135 and a Spitfire in a dogfight.

There are a few factors here:

1. A spitfire in a dogfight is turning so the wing is generating more lift, and a stronger wake vortex as a result.

2. A KC-135 level will generate a vortex much bigger than a Hornet will, that's why it would be referred to as a Heavy and Hornet would be warned when under ATC.

This might cause the effect to feel 'similar' given the size relation of a Spitfire vs. Spitfire and Hornet vs. KC-135.

A case in example is the A380 Super Heavy that passed over a bizjet of a similar size to a Hornet, and rolled the aircraft over several times, bent it, trashed the interior and caused it to lose several thousand feet of altitude recovering.

It might be a little over-modelled (I am not a pilot so I have no personal experience to speak of), but I don't think it is by all that much.

 

[grimnir]

17 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

It's also useful to find yourself some visual alignment cues: one on the tanker's body, the other inside the cockpit. A static element of the HUD, like a gunsight, or something on the canopy bow works well. 

I've got one that's just perfect for the occasion:  

 

That is also a good whisky-tune

[Stearmandriver]

On 7/8/2022 at 10:21 PM, RentedAndDented said:

If you do have a look at the visualisation video you'll see that's it's not as simple as you think. An increase in AOA causes an increase in the size of the vortex which it shows. The link is in the post just above yours. I also think this is actually reflected in your post where you compare a Hornet behind a KC-135 and a Spitfire in a dogfight.

There are a few factors here:

1. A spitfire in a dogfight is turning so the wing is generating more lift, and a stronger wake vortex as a result.

2. A KC-135 level will generate a vortex much bigger than a Hornet will, that's why it would be referred to as a Heavy and Hornet would be warned when under ATC.

This might cause the effect to feel 'similar' given the size relation of a Spitfire vs. Spitfire and Hornet vs. KC-135.

A case in example is the A380 Super Heavy that passed over a bizjet of a similar size to a Hornet, and rolled the aircraft over several times, bent it, trashed the interior and caused it to lose several thousand feet of altitude recovering.

It might be a little over-modelled (I am not a pilot so I have no personal experience to speak of), but I don't think it is by all that much.

 

Oh, it is terribly modeled, believe me.  A loaded Spitfire wing can't produce anywhere near as much wake as a 135 wing under 1g in reality.  I've experienced wake in many types of aircraft, from many types of aircraft, in many flight conditions, over many years in reality (I'm an airline pilot by trade as well as a civilian aerobatic guy).  DCS wake turbulence feels and behaves basically nothing like real world wake. It's truly ridiculous.  (And now it needs to be turned off anyway or you get the crazy pitch up moment in what is supposed to be the burble at the ramp.)

Speaking generally, the best thing DCS has going for it is some truly great flight modeling.  The wake was always a minor point of annoyance, but just minor. The messed up burble is more annoying. I sure hope they sort it out in the Hornet FM review soon! 

[RentedAndDented]

On 7/15/2022 at 11:25 AM, Stearmandriver said:

Oh, it is terribly modeled, believe me.  A loaded Spitfire wing can't produce anywhere near as much wake as a 135 wing under 1g in reality.  I've experienced wake in many types of aircraft, from many types of aircraft, in many flight conditions, over many years in reality (I'm an airline pilot by trade as well as a civilian aerobatic guy).  DCS wake turbulence feels and behaves basically nothing like real world wake. It's truly ridiculous.  (And now it needs to be turned off anyway or you get the crazy pitch up moment in what is supposed to be the burble at the ramp.)

Speaking generally, the best thing DCS has going for it is some truly great flight modeling.  The wake was always a minor point of annoyance, but just minor. The messed up burble is more annoying. I sure hope they sort it out in the Hornet FM review soon! 

Just to be clear, I am not saying a Spitfire will do that. I am saying that relative to another Spitfire, if you are behind it in a dogfight and it is asking for more lift from it's wing by pulling G, your relative effect might be perceived to be as strong as the relative effect of a heavy on a much much lighter F/A-18.

[markom]

Thank you all for great advice. Just 5 minutes ago, for the first time, I landed my F/A-18C with more fuel than I had at takeoff.

It's amazing how one problem easily transitions into another. I struggled for weeks to just plug in. Today, after I did that for the first time, repeating it was becoming less and less of a problem, but staying plugged in is the challenge. Onto practicing that.

My takes:

• Whoever (sorry, laziness) came up with the idea to use A/P ATTH needs a cold beverage. This is golden advice.
• Perseverance pays off. I followed another advice from the forum here, and did 10-15 minute exercises, and no more. Today was the day of success.
• Having a simple dedicated mission that I could just jump into helped a lot. That way those 10-15 minutes are spent on the task at hand and not frivolous setup for it
  • In my case, it's 5000 ft over Las Vegas (which can be loads of fun when it translated to 100 ft AGL, but that aside -- fixing that now)
  • Make sure your tanker(s) have 10-20 miles of straight run, but do have them turn - it will make you better. 20 mile race-track orbit does the trick.
  • Add TACAN to the tanker, just for when you lose it in the sky. If you do, make a nice long loop, give yourself space to set up.

Again, thank you all!

[jetsimace]

My AAR skill has improved since I am completely staying off the rudder (opposed to what Chuck recommends in his F-18 guide) - instead I`m using stick and throttle input only.
Still I wish there would be some kind of an "easy AAR" option available... 

[skywalker22]

I fly DCS for 3 years, and AAR seems like a mission impossible to me, no matter which aircraft. Really don't know what to do anymore. I would say, that its a job way harder that it's IRL. So it seems.

I have the feeling you know, I am the top racing driver IRL and SIM over 20 years, and AAR it seems too be to hard for me to master. Really have no idea what to do. When I come under the aircraft, I start to move to hard on the stick, and then you know what follows.

Edited August 20, 2022 by skywalker22

[Minsky]

52 minutes ago, skywalker22 said:

When I come under the aircraft, I start to move to hard on the stick, and then you know what follows.

There are lots of advices, both useful ("clear you head and relax") and less useful ("don't look at the basket"), but what ultimately worked for me is increasing the curvature for pitch and roll axis.

Go as high as needed (20, 30, 40, 50) until you can confidently keep behind the tanker and then plug in. Then gradually decrease the curvature. Rinse and repeat until you find the number you are comfortable with during both flying/fighting and refueling.

[markom]

So, a few weeks after my previous post, I am off the ATTH button, and can refuel from 2500 lbs to 10700 in about 4-5 minutes, even with the tanker turning. No curvatures, no changes to the controls, just a bit of practice in almost every mission. AAR is now the part of the mission I most look forward to. It's really great and easy once you go over that initial hump mountain.

Key points are really, gentle control inputs, one millimeter at a time, keep in mind there is a reaction time between your inputs and aircraft, as well as aircraft and you noticing it. Don't over-do, cut your inputs in half (I think Spudknocker had this advice in his video). 

You can do it. It's hard. Probably the hardest thing in DCS, but... it's doable. Patience and dedicate time to it.

[Dragon1-1]

A good stick helps, too. I had my share of bumpy AARs, but I've recently finished Rising Squall, and one mission allows optional AAR. Well, I haven't done it in a while, but I just drove into the basket and topped up before the AI managed to finish their AAR. After learning to do it with the CH stick, with its large deadzone that made fine inputs hard, doing it with a Winwing one was much easier.

Also, I discovered a good alignment cue, similar to how I plug the Tomcat: try to put the "5" on the pitch ladder in nav mode on the hose. Worked with the KC-135 MPRS so far, I'm going to see if it works with the others later.

[Goliathus]

In my instance the thing that helped me the most with AAR is to "be very gentle with the throttle". I try to control my closure rate and anticipate reactions of my plane, because decreasing the throttle input won´t change the speed instantly (for obvious reasons).

So before my first attempt to reach the basket I make sure that I have my closure rate under control and that I´m able to change the distance to the tanker by few feet only. Then it is much easier to connect to the basket, because anytime I see I´m not aligned with the basket, I can simply slow down and extend the distance by few feet before another try (when I was new to AAR, I hated how I had to approach the tanker after unsuccessful attempt from a long distance and pretty often from a wrong angle - this is something I did because I flew too far away and had to change the altitude and attitude to avoid midair collision with the tanker. Everyhing just because I was too fast and wasn´t gentle with the throttle enough) . 

Using this method I was able to refuel at night without NVGs using only the light from my refueling probe. I´m not any AAR guru though... but good enough not to fall from the sky

[Minsky]

There is another problem. People new to aerial refueling are so eager to plug in that they unknowingly ignore most AAR procedures, forming bad habits that often stays.

This is probably because the whole thing in DCS feel accelerated, and is usually simplified. I.e. the tanker is always nearby and full of gas, the TACAN always works, there is never a line, you get full tanks in two minutes, etc.

If done by the book, catching the basket is only a tiny part of a lengthy and complex process that could be exciting and rewarding as well.

[Dragon1-1]

14 hours ago, Minsky said:

If done by the book, catching the basket is only a tiny part of a lengthy and complex process that could be exciting and rewarding as well.

The problem is that for this to be a thing, we'd need an AI that at least pretends to have a brain, along with proper comms and procedures, including difference between boom and basket flows. Any good AAR starts with a good rejoin, but the AI doesn't care for things like the observation position, and if there's a queue (especially AI), expect much confusion and an occasional midair collision. In dedicated SP missions with scripted AI refuelings, it can be bearable. Less so in a more dynamic scenario.

[dawgie79]

On 8/20/2022 at 9:56 PM, skywalker22 said:

I fly DCS for 3 years, and AAR seems like a mission impossible to me, no matter which aircraft. Really don't know what to do anymore. I would say, that its a job way harder that it's IRL. So it seems.

I have the feeling you know, I am the top racing driver IRL and SIM over 20 years, and AAR it seems too be to hard for me to master. Really have no idea what to do. When I come under the aircraft, I start to move to hard on the stick, and then you know what follows.

 

Try holding the stick with just two fingers, as soon as you're in pre-contact position.

 

[Mistermann]

Over my DCS career AAR has been the most difficult element for me to tackle - by FAR.  Like most things in life, it takes practice, dedication and repetition to get it right.  That answer isn't what most people want to hear, I know.  

This is one of those tasks that you have to "do" to get right.  It doesn't matter how many youtube videos you watch ... none of them are going to make you a better aviator on the stick/throttle/pedals.  For YEARS (10+), I used a side stick with no extension.  I'd fiddle with the curves and eventually got decent enough to catch the basket and then hang on for dear life.  It never felt natural.  I never got comfortable and AAR remained something that I dreaded doing.  I'd practice, but never really saw much improvement.  I often lost contact and would have to re-engage the basket.  

That was until I invested in a stick extension and mounting brackets for my HOTAS.  I now run with ZERO curves on my stick and AAR feels great.  I no longer tense up and can AAR like I've been doing it for years.  I have found a new lease on all those campaigns that require AAR to fully enjoy.  

So this is just MY experience.  Lots of practice AND better equipment is what worked for me.  

Lastly, as a wannabe fighter pilot that will never get any closer to the experience outside of DCS, the AAR milestone remains one of the most rewarding of my "career".  My words of encouragement are - "Don't give up!"

 

[dburne]

I have good equipment and fly with a 200mm extension and still finding AAR to be the most challenging thing for me to learn, and I have been trying it off and on for many months now... have not quite got there yet.

[MAXsenna]

Managed for the first time to fill up in a turn yesterday!  

And I have not been practicing in the Hornet for six months. Had about five disconnects though, but I'm getting there.  

[MTM]

Bravo MAXsenna! That’s a great feeling isn’t it!

One thing that’s helped me came from a Grim Reapers video where Cap was giving refueling advice… The plane is going to oscillate back and forth. Don’t try to correct the oscillation. “Dampen” the oscillation. Focus on dampening the plane’s movements and you’ll have a smoother experience! 

[t1mb0b]

That's the amazing thing that happens, I remember stepping back from trying, then trying again after a long break and thinking 'hang on, what just happened'. Muscle memory I don't know, the brain is a funny thing.

[MAXsenna]

2 hours ago, MTM said:

Bravo MAXsenna! That’s a great feeling isn’t it!

One thing that’s helped me came from a Grim Reapers video where Cap was giving refueling advice… The plane is going to oscillate back and forth. Don’t try to correct the oscillation. “Dampen” the oscillation. Focus on dampening the plane’s movements and you’ll have a smoother experience! 

Yup! Just filled it up without disconnects right now, for the first time in the Hornet!

[markom]

I know this is all virtual and gameified, but it DOES feel good, doesn't it?

A big win for me is that I no longer have to avoid all those wonderful campaigns. I can now fly and enjoy them.

Onto figuring out how to not get killed the moment someone looks at me.