F-14 - Energy or Angles?

[bonesvf103]

Would you say that the Tomcat is more an energy fighter or an angles fighter?  Should she fight nose to tail or nose to nose?  Radius fighter or rate fighter?

 

v6,

boNes

[Snappy]

My take on that:

 

It depends on what airframe you’re fighting.

The F-14 is certainly no slouch in either area ( with a reasonable loadout and fuel load) but look at what airframe you’re facing and then decide which way you want to fight. It may even change within the duration of a single fight with changing energy states.

 

I think this “ energy vs angle fighter” thing isn’t as clear cut anymore as it (maybe) used to be with 3rd gen or older fighters, like the F-104 , F-4 or Mig-17 .

 

But even then it depended. Extreme (unrealistic in many ways) example, but just to illustrate: Take The F-4 ,

which you likely would classify as an energy fighter. Now put it in a fight against the SR-71 ( as I said highly unrealistic) .

The F-4 likely wins the angle fight every time.

 

Anyway thats my view on things, more knowledgeable people can probably tell you more or better how to employ the F-14.

 

regards,

 

 Snappy 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 12, 2021 by Snappy

[bonesvf103]

Thanks, Snappy.

 

That is actually the reason why I was asking.  The question was somewhat loaded, but not because of trickery or anything but because I've noticed that the Tomcat can fight in both situations pretty well, depending on how it was deployed, as you mentioned above.  BUT, I didn't know if that was just me.  So I wanted to hear others' take on it.

 

I'm still interested to hear what other people think.

 

v6,

boNes

[unlikely_spider]

Is the distinction still appropriate for jets with missiles? Genuinely curious - I have often heard warbirds talked about in such terms, since energy fighters can theoretically use height and speed to their advantage, since it's possible to keep themselves out of gun range of an opponent who has less of either of those two.

But when your opponent has guided medium range missiles - does that dogma apply?

 

Another example is the inversion of the thought that altitude is safety, which applied to warbirds, but with the advent of radar-guided missiles makes you much easier to spot and lock.

[Snappy]

Spider,

 

re

"Is the distinction still appropriate for jets with missiles?" &  But when your opponent has guided medium range missiles ..."

 

again, I can only tell from my personal non-professional opinion , so take my answer with a warbird-sized grain of salt :

 

I think this "classification" stems mostly from  the eras of close-in guns only fights , BFM , and  maybe into the rear - aspect IR missiles. And even then, maybe

it was more of an informal , broad classification  for fighter pilots when they talked about aircrafts and fights or instructed . 

With nowadays all-aspect missiles and HOBS Helmet cueing  , things have likely become much much more complex in regards to threat analysis.

Probably a lot of time is spent going over EM diagramms and other  intelligence on expected adversary aircraft strength/weaknesses, and coming

up with possible gameplans against individual threats , besides of course the actual  training fights / excercises themselves.

 

I'm not sure,  if such a simple angles/energy classification, which in itself highly depends on various factors, makes much sense anymore in front of that background. Except maybe  in very asymmetric situations, like having an A-4 Skyhawk face off against an F-16 or so.

Well , just noticed, I couldn't really answer your question and rambled around a bit too long. Sorry. Maybe you 're lucky and Victory or one of the other RW pilots chimes in.

Have a good day anyway,

Snappy.

 

 

 

Edited April 12, 2021 by Snappy

[TLTeo]

2 hours ago, unlikely_spider said:

But when your opponent has guided medium range missiles - does that dogma apply?

It does still apply when it comes to BFM alone, but not when it comes to BVR fights. Also, as weapons get more lethal "angles fighters" get an obvious advantage because all they need is use their ITR to point the nose in the general direction of their opponent to take a shot.

[AH_Solid_Snake]

It's definitely still relevant if you end up merged with somebody, but as has been noted - that means a lot of things have gone wrong prior to this.

 

In a training scenario for guns only or rear aspect only fox-2s then conceivably you can energy fight by using large pitch excursions to pull yourself out of their HUD / WEZ before they can react, but its less then about gaining altitude to escape and more about positioning. Although theoretically against a much slower opponent if you've forced them to turn and slow down while gaining angles you could just unload and bug out - past about a mile in a tail chase if you're accelerating at max power an old fox 2 wont catch you.

 

In a PVP / realistic modern scenario - nope, you screwed up about 20 miles ago. If you're expecting HOBS weapons or a BVR equipped opponent then you're not likely to be able to extend out of their range before they can turn it around and get a radar lock on you. Thats not to say don't try every manuver to get yourself out of the hole, including your big engines and huge pitch authority. But we have to acknowledge its real last ditch to spoil their immediate solution at that point, and with a 9X it may still not be enough.

[bonesvf103]

Sorry guys, I think I failed to clarify:  I am talking about at the merge, in a dogfight ACM/BFM situation.  So figure, say:

 

1.  Guns only

2.  Guns and Heaters only.

 

Thanks!  Great insights here.

 

v6,

boNes

[Callsign JoNay]

Angle fighter IMO.

 

EDIT: It depends on your philosophy. If you come from the Snodgrass school of thought where the Cat is a 13G fighter, then you can energy fight with it. If you are the type of person who tries to keep it below 7G, then you need to angle fight with tighter radius.

Edited April 13, 2021 by Callsign JoNay

[Awesomejlee]

Against any 4th gen fighter, it’s an angles fighter. It’s got a relatively poor T/W ratio. I generally try to take it 1C at the merge to take advantage of the Cat’s great turn radius.

 

It struggles in a rate fight against 4th gen fighters.

[Slant]

It depends on how good the pilot is. The Tomcat can do either. It's never going to be as happy as the Hornet in a slow fight, but it's no slouch and the Hornet guy will have to work for it. Same with the Viper.

[captain_dalan]

On 4/12/2021 at 9:27 AM, Snappy said:

My take on that:

 

It depends on what airframe you’re fighting.

The F-14 is certainly no slouch in either area ( with a reasonable loadout and fuel load) but look at what airframe you’re facing and then decide which way you want to fight. It may even change within the duration of a single fight with changing energy states.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To this i would add, it also depends on how YOU fight. On paper, there's enough authority in the pitch to go one circle against most planes present in DCS. But, can you actually maintain control at very low airspeeds? If you can, then you can use it as a one circle fighter. Even against Hornets. Against Mirages.....not so much, at least not it my DCS experience. You are better off going up then. But that's like 1 plane out of what, half a dozen full fidelity modules?

As for energy VS angles, IMO EVERY fight is an energy fight, that is, managing your energy is a key skill in deciding if you should turn or climb.....and when. You need to know how your aircraft behaves along the entire envelope to know when one is applied and when the other, or better said, when is one preferred over the other. And it is here that the A and B wildly deffer.

A turning fight, be it one or two circle, is by no means an STR fight. Bleeding and unloading play a bigger role then STR, if properly applied. My 2 cents......

[Spurts]

14 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

To this i would add, it also depends on how YOU fight. On paper, there's enough authority in the pitch to go one circle against most planes present in DCS. But, can you actually maintain control at very low airspeeds? If you can, then you can use it as a one circle fighter. Even against Hornets.

I spent so much time when I first got the module doing BFM that to me the Tomcat is the best of the Hornet and Viper.  I learned how to rate it, I learned how to control the nose during a heavy pull, I learned how to reverse at low speed, I learned the best way to climb depending on my speed.  The end result is that I can use Mil power against my buddies even if they are in Hornets.

[captain_dalan]

3 hours ago, Spurts said:

I spent so much time when I first got the module doing BFM that to me the Tomcat is the best of the Hornet and Viper.  I learned how to rate it, I learned how to control the nose during a heavy pull, I learned how to reverse at low speed, I learned the best way to climb depending on my speed.  The end result is that I can use Mil power against my buddies even if they are in Hornets.

Good stuff!
You're ahead of me then. Though i can hang with Hornets and on occasion even with M2K's at low speeds ("old age and treachery...."), i'm from from consistent, even against myself (like in aerobatics). Too often (about once in 4 or 5 attempts) i find myself with wings wiggling when very slow. I think i has more then a little to do with my turn coordination, or better said, lack if it. But then, i don't have rudders and use a rocker pedal to rudder. 

[Spurts]

I'm sure a well flown Hornet could really make me sweat and likely even beat me more often than not.  My buddy has a tendency to ham-fist the controls "because he can", i.e. the Hornet won't kill him for flying that way the way the Tomcat will.  As a result he ends up with no speed.  The Hornet may not kill him for it, but I will.  Hence why I don't use AB to handicap myself.  My son is training up in the F-14B right now so I take out an A model and put the wings in BOMB mode to fly against him.  I always have less thrust, less lift, and more drag.  That helps counter my decades of virtual BFM experience and two years experience in the Tomcat.  He's getting better fast, learning when to keep AoA low and when to pull it high.  He also has rudder rockers so it is harder for him to learn the fine control.

 

Patience and practice, with those two things (and a good rudder controller) you can really learn to make that fat turkey dance.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Spurts

[captain_dalan]

Well, a couple of weekends ago i started changing the approach i had when i applied the rudder inputs. I used to always try and apply some during all the stages of the bank, therefore trying to stay ahead of the plane by anticipating what she'd do next. And it kinda worked 4 out of 5 times. However, at the start of April, as i was requalifying myself for carrier ops (completely lost the touch after a few months of abstinence), i noticed how my anticipatory inputs weren't always up to snuff. Even in a fairly benign environment such as CASE I's. So instead of constant inputs, i started experimenting with just small kicks at the start of the bank, and then a major kick, depending on the bank angle. I found myself surprised how much more coordinated my turns became, so i plan to apply the approach to ACM. But i'm yet to try that in practice. Haven't had many opportunities to play lately.

[Hector45]

On 4/16/2021 at 8:47 AM, Spurts said:

I spent so much time when I first got the module doing BFM that to me the Tomcat is the best of the Hornet and Viper.  I learned how to rate it, I learned how to control the nose during a heavy pull, I learned how to reverse at low speed, I learned the best way to climb depending on my speed.  The end result is that I can use Mil power against my buddies even if they are in Hornets.

I'd love to learn your secrets, I love flying the tomcat and have no problems tanking, carrier/field landings, BVR, but if i have to BFM I'm just absolutely terrible. Flew against my bro recently he was in the hornet, and it seemed he could outperform me in every category. He could rate with me both horizontally and vertically! only way i could seem to ever out rate him is with flaps deployed. He could bleed speed but regain his energy without issue. Seems if i let myself get slower than 250knts, its over. I just can't regain the energy back without giving him all of the angles in the world. Extremely frustrating.

[Spurts]

On 4/18/2021 at 8:43 AM, Hector45 said:

I'd love to learn your secrets, I love flying the tomcat and have no problems tanking, carrier/field landings, BVR, but if i have to BFM I'm just absolutely terrible. Flew against my bro recently he was in the hornet, and it seemed he could outperform me in every category. He could rate with me both horizontally and vertically! only way i could seem to ever out rate him is with flaps deployed. He could bleed speed but regain his energy without issue. Seems if i let myself get slower than 250knts, its over. I just can't regain the energy back without giving him all of the angles in the world. Extremely frustrating.

Well, as I said my buddy really hamfists the Hornet so he bleeds speed like crazy.  I keep AoA at 15 for general turning as I can rate quickly, have sufficient speed to transition to a vertical, and can roll with rudder or lateral stick.  I will pull to 20-25 if I need to tighten a corner but I always keep the stick laterally centered and start tap-dancing on the rudders as needed to keep the nose in place but I don't hold it for long as I will lose my speed and turning ability.  Patience is the name of the Tomcat game.  Now if only I could translate that to tanking....  I often end up BFMing the tanker.  Oh!  And nearly full nose down trim for BFM!  even full nose down trim you can get to 25+ AoA but recovery from high AoA is much easier.

[Hector45]

47 minutes ago, Spurts said:

Well, as I said my buddy really hamfists the Hornet so he bleeds speed like crazy.  I keep AoA at 15 for general turning as I can rate quickly, have sufficient speed to transition to a vertical, and can roll with rudder or lateral stick.  I will pull to 20-25 if I need to tighten a corner but I always keep the stick laterally centered and start tap-dancing on the rudders as needed to keep the nose in place but I don't hold it for long as I will lose my speed and turning ability.  Patience is the name of the Tomcat game.  Now if only I could translate that to tanking....  I often end up BFMing the tanker.  Oh!  And nearly full nose down trim for BFM!  even full nose down trim you can get to 25+ AoA but recovery from high AoA is much easier.

Thanks for the tips man, I know i need to use rudder way more, just not sure how much and in what scenario i should be utilizing them. 

Once i started tanking with the wing sweep in bomb mode its much easier. No longer fighting the constant changed in wing sweep/lift every time you feather the throttle.

[draconus]

47 minutes ago, Hector45 said:

Thanks for the tips man, I know i need to use rudder way more, just not sure how much and in what scenario i should be utilizing them.

Basically the more AoA the more you use rudders and less lateral stick so above around 15 units you use rudder only. Use lateral stick when not loaded for quick rolls. You can introduce those with rudder too.

[Spurts]

Exactly.  Also, "roll in" your pitch inputs (and I do NOT mean roll as in what lateral stick provides).  I had to teach my son this recently.  Begin a pitch input by squeezing your fingers back.  When you can't go any farther that way, pull your wrist.  Once your wrist is fully flexed, bend at the elbow if you need a little more.  If you need to lessen the AoA, do the same thing, relax your fingers first, etc.  The smoother the input the more controllable the yaw will be.  This is why I can go into a 30 AoA pull with more stability than my son doing a 20 AoA pull.  He may get the nose a few degrees farther in the first second but it doesn't matter if his nose is slicing all over the place.

[maxsin72]

 

38 minutes ago, Spurts said:

Exactly.  Also, "roll in" your pitch inputs (and I do NOT mean roll as in what lateral stick provides).  I had to teach my son this recently.  Begin a pitch input by squeezing your fingers back.  When you can't go any farther that way, pull your wrist.  Once your wrist is fully flexed, bend at the elbow if you need a little more.  If you need to lessen the AoA, do the same thing, relax your fingers first, etc.  The smoother the input the more controllable the yaw will be.  This is why I can go into a 30 AoA pull with more stability than my son doing a 20 AoA pull.  He may get the nose a few degrees farther in the first second but it doesn't matter if his nose is slicing all over the place.

Do you play on a particular server? Your nickname?  It would be nice to fight with you to learn more, thx

Edited April 20, 2021 by maxsin72

[Spurts]

@maxsin72  I don't play on public servers.  I play on private servers where my friends and I play custom missions, do flight/weapons training, or sometimes just go sightseeing.  I don't get to fly that much right now, just one or two hour long flights in a week to teach my son the Tomcat, so in the near future it will be mostly training missions to relearn weapon systems.

[Rick50]

 

I wonder how much differences in thrust would make to this discussion?

 

Meaning, if we are talking the Tomcat with 23,400 lbf to 30,200 lbf of thrust in the B with the GE-110, compared to just 20,900 lb from the  Pratt & Whitney TF30 in the Tomcat A. That's a huge loss of thrust, either to sustain angles, or build and keep energy. I bring this up since unlike the 1980's rockets with 1 to 1 thrust to weight, the earlier jets may have had a lot of top speed, they did not have all that much thrust to climb agressively at higher angles of attack that you see in a knife-fight. 

 

As an example, the F-5E is quite agile in a fight, but one thing it struggles with, is taking the fight higher, because it doesn't really have that much thrust, and so often in dogfights, if the fight keeps going, it tends to decend to the hard-deck. 

 

Edited April 20, 2021 by Rick50

[Spurts]

Thrust is huge.  Don't get hung up on the static numbers though, the TF30 makes way less than 20,000 installed at 0 speed and way more than 20,900 at peak.  Case in point, the F110-GE-400 numbers of 23,400 and 30,200 are uninstalled static and installed at 0.9M at sea level IIRC.  

 

Anyway, the A+, B, D models of Tomcat can energy fight in the vertical reasonably well.  The A model does not have the ability to transition into a vertical fight well.  You can try to start the fight that way, but once it goes into a turning fight the vertical is pretty much off limits if you are up against a 4th gen fighter.