"Musical tone" in engine sounds

[RustBelt]

Is there a way to get the SME accurate all ECS mix option?

[bkthunder]

Just my opinion of course, but that same sound loop in the Viggen is the reason why I think HB sound-scape is not great.

I think Viggen sounds are overall not that great, I have never been in a Viggen myself so can't say with any certainty, but it sounds very artificial and "loopy". 

 

The F-14: I'm on the side of the pilots when they say the ECS should be louder, but I understand HB tries to give more "cinematic" effect rather than trying to recreate the sound realistically. That said, the viggen loop is there and it's noticeable.

 

Edited June 20, 2021 by bkthunder

[captain_dalan]

It's not just the cinematic effect, it's the feedback required to know your power setting during "nose-out-of-the-cockpit" flying situations. Just like the flutter, rattle and clicky sounds. I know many people don't care about BFM and edge of the envelope aerobatics, but without any tactile feedback it's almost impossible to max perform this machine.

[IronMike]

It also doesn't sound very good. Imagine this, much louder, but muffled through the helmet. Hissssssssss
 

 

And while there might be a handful of folks who would like to have that, we won't do that. Having a soundscape where the ECS is super loud as a special option is something we may think about later, but more likely no, so no promises.

It is true that our sounds are one of the things that get praised most often, in articels, in PMs, in comments on fbook, etc etc - it stands out, we don't say that to flatter us, but to give you feedback over the bigger picture we have. The folks posting here on forums are a rather small - almost tight nit - group when comparing to our customers at large, and while it may seem that "no one" here likes them, it isn't representative. In the end, it is also a matter of taste.

It is similar like with the worn cockpit, etc. We do also preserve ourselves the artistic freedom to model things as we think they are best for the broad majority and/or to our liking, and we cannot constantly adjust this or that, because some would like to have it different. There will always be that one sound, that one stencil not readible, that one effect, etc... someone will complain about. That is fine and normal and we have no issues with that. On top of it, if we can make things optional, we do. But most of the times it is focusing on smaller stuff due to different tastes - and at some point we also have to say: this is where we draw the line, and we are sorry if it isn't 100% to your liking, but we will not adjust it any further. I hope you guys can understand. Thank you!

Edited June 20, 2021 by IronMike

[draconus]

On 6/19/2021 at 9:14 PM, Cobra847 said:

FWIW, If we're going by SME sound feedback, we'd be spiking the gains of the ECS so you couldn't hear literally anything else.

I'd gladly take what's real rather than engine "music" pattern or exaggerated cockpit clicks. Why defend Hollywood sounds while making ex. radar so realistic? You don't go by popular demand to have reliable radar? I bet it'd be praised more. Tell me it's your artistic freedom and I'll give up.

Edited June 21, 2021 by draconus

[Golo]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

Why defend Hollywood sounds while making ex. radar so realistic?

Because you do not have a seat of the pants feel of engine performance, like afterburner kick, feel for any ac/deceleration, nor you have a tactile feel of pressing buttons/switches, that is all limitation of being virtual so we need that to come from some other source which is sound. And HB did a great job at that, I personally like how 14 sounds a lot.

 

Edit: if you convince HB to give you for example slider in special options to max out ECS sound to drown everything else out, by all means have at it. Just do not force it on everyone

Edited June 21, 2021 by Golo

[DD_Fenrir]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

Why defend Hollywood sounds while making ex. radar so realistic? You don't go by popular demand to have reliable radar? I bet it'd be praised more. Tell me it's your artistic freedom and I'll give up.

 

 

The two are completely independent, and you know it Drac. You're employing reductio ad absurdum and doing so to chalk and cheese to boot.

 

This is not about popular demand. It's about attempting to provide an essential feedback that real aviators rely on but that cannot be replicated by the average user in a swivel chair on a desktop PC.

 

Sensory feedback is one of the most fundamental parts of aviating; if you have ever flown you should know this. Given sound and vibration/impact/accelerations are so closely co-dependant in real life it is the most effective way for a simulator of cueing the virtual aviator of events that would otherwise be nigh impossible to mimic.

 

In the real airframe you'd feel the kick in the pants of the afterburner lighting; how would you suggest they accomplish this without sound cues?

 

In the real airframe you'd feel the resistance of a switch, then sudden release as the tension breaks and the harsh stop as the switch terminates it's travel through your fingertips, meaning you are able - without looking - to confirm the activation of said switch; how would you suggest they accomplish this without sound cues?

 

Ultimately, this is entertainment media and ergo an artform; one grounded in science, I grant you, but one where there are latitudes for creative problem solving. I for one have no issue with Heatblurs choice in this matter.

 

[fat creason]

27 minutes ago, DD_Fenrir said:

 

The two are completely independent, and you know it Drac. You're employing reductio ad absurdum and doing so to chalk and cheese to boot.

 

This is not about popular demand. It's about attempting to provide an essential feedback that real aviators rely on but that cannot be replicated by the average user in a swivel chair on a desktop PC.

 

Sensory feedback is one of the most fundamental parts of aviating; if you have ever flown you should know this. Given sound and vibration/impact/accelerations are so closely co-dependant in real life it is the most effective way for a simulator of cueing the virtual aviator of events that would otherwise be nigh impossible to mimic.

 

In the real airframe you'd feel the kick in the pants of the afterburner lighting; how would you suggest they accomplish this without sound cues?

 

In the real airframe you'd feel the resistance of a switch, then sudden release as the tension breaks and the harsh stop as the switch terminates it's travel through your fingertips, meaning you are able - without looking - to confirm the activation of said switch; how would you suggest they accomplish this without sound cues?

 

Ultimately, this is entertainment media and ergo an artform; one grounded in science, I grant you, but one where there are latitudes for creative problem solving. I for one have no issue with Heatblurs choice in this matter.

 

 

 

Well said. Many of the sounds in the F-14 are there for additional feedback that would be available in physical form to an actual pilot. If you wanted "real" sounds the pilot would hear (with helmet on) it would just be a bunch of white noise with no changes in pitch or volume. 99% of users would hate it. You'd have no idea what's going on with the engines or anything else, you'd have to look at the engine tapes and nozzle position to figure out what the engine is doing since you can't feel it. Same with switches, the pilot would have tactile feedback. We play switch sounds to let you know that a switch was moved. I can keep going but hopefully the point has been made.

[Cobra847]

It would be fairly trivial for us to add a special option for the ECS- I will add it to the backlog with no promised date for now.
If anyone wants to try; you can locally edit the gain parameter on the ECS .sdef's in the /Mods/ folder.

Interestingly; one of the worst issues of realistic ECS levels is that it sits very similarly in the mix as the intake whine; so you will certainly feel less engine/thrust level feedback.

Edited June 21, 2021 by Cobra847

[CarbonFox]

Is the hard sound loop when in the external view of the F-14 going to be smoothed out in the future? Also, when going into the Fly-by view, there is about one second time interval where you there is no sound at all.

Edited June 21, 2021 by CarbonFox

[bkthunder]

Guys let me elaborate, even if I think my post was pretty clear. 

 

I do understand and even appreciate the clicks, the rattling and even the clunky noises when moving the throttles. I think they do add to the immersion and give feedback. 

What I don't like is not the concept, but the execution. And this is confined to the engine sounds. 

 

The looping "musical tone" is a very good example. There should be no noticeable loops, period.

Another example is the A/B sound being almost 100% on or 100% off, there is very little transition as you can hear for e.g. in the Hornet or F-16 (which IMO have it spot on). 

Again, the external A/B sound also has some issues in being much, much louder than the normal engine sound, so much so that in F3 view, after the aircraft has passed in full A/B, if you throttle back to MIL the sound abruptly disappears leaving almost a void. 

 

So, at least for me, I fully appreciate all the nuances and feedback, but the engine sounds could be implemented better. 

 

P.S. on the Viggen, al I hear is the "musical tone", there is almost no audible engine whine and very little feedback in that regard.   

 

Edited June 21, 2021 by bkthunder

[draconus]

Sorry, I don't buy that alternative feedback. If 99% vpilots look for that, cool for them, I didn't come for that. There are buttkickers, ffb sticks or even moving platforms if one wants to go further into immersions. There are those haptic gloves whatever...

Since I use keys, buttons and mouse I already have that feedback on my fingers.

With current built-in sounds I don't even have the option for realistic in-helmet experience. Mind you the switches sounds still don't react to switches audio slider. If the ECS really hides everything else - so be it - I want to experience the same what RL pilot hears - that's what I expect from the simulation. Let me torment myself with this - all I need is confirmation that it was really what pilot heard. I don't want to force it on anyone so some options would be much appreciated, thx.

Edited June 21, 2021 by draconus

[Donut]

4 hours ago, fat creason said:

 

 

Well said. Many of the sounds in the F-14 are there for additional feedback that would be available in physical form to an actual pilot. If you wanted "real" sounds the pilot would hear (with helmet on) it would just be a bunch of white noise with no changes in pitch or volume. 99% of users would hate it. You'd have no idea what's going on with the engines or anything else, you'd have to look at the engine tapes and nozzle position to figure out what the engine is doing since you can't feel it. Same with switches, the pilot would have tactile feedback. We play switch sounds to let you know that a switch was moved. I can keep going but hopefully the point has been made.

I 100% support and understand the need for audible feedback in the Tomcat.  However, I think you guys have been rather heavy handed with the level of sound.  A little goes a long way and a bit of lowering of the feedback volumes would create more of a balance between realism and audio feedback.  All sounds seem incredibly high...Jester, missile launch "thump", fuel probe, switches, afterburner.  For me, it actually takes aways from the realism and immersion and makes the Tomcat seem more of an arcade game.  
 

I have no problem flying the Hornet with it's much more realistic sounds.
 

Also, not sound related but the heavy handedness in feedback can also be seen on the amount of "shake" seen with increasing and high AOA.  Again, it is needed, but not at such a jarring level...of course unless the real Tomcat did shake that much. 

[LanceCriminal86]

The musical tone, to me, sounds more like someone playing crystal glasses than background ECS sounds mixed in with the turbine whine. It immediately pulls my attention away, the same as if there was a hard looped sound which has happened before.

 

Can we not just have a clean turbine sample sound, and then incorporate whatever ECS "soundscape" background sounds into one sound or group of sounds? Why add ECS sounds to turbine whine instead of having ECS be its own layer?

[IronMike]

We can't guys. We cannot remaster all sounds, because you dont like this or that one, we cannot re-record whatnot many sounds, etc etc... We can't change every little bit here and there, just because some, very few, don't like it, or prefer something else. There is an end to affairs at some point. Some like it more, some less, some think it is unrealistic, some appreciate the feedback it gives, and so on and so forth.

It is artistic freedom. It is carefully crafted to fulfill a functionality. Does it mean it hits the nail on the head for you? That choice is up to each and everyone of you.

We've put more time and work into the Tomcat already than is even remotely rational for the price of a module like this. We will continue improving it. We may iron out this or that which we find we can do better. But we will not strive to appease every single wish out there, because  - as much as we would love to, because we love your passion guys - then no one's wish gets fulfilled in the end. Nothing will ever be perfect, and while we do strive for perfectionism, one also must not fool himself that perfectionism can ever be achieved for everyone. It can't, we all have too many different tastes and preferences for this.

Luckily there is a very good option for this in sims though: mods. I'd love to see sound mods popping up. I'd love to see what you guys would have done, what you guys would have proposed, srsly. So, @draconus if having an ECS hisss in your ears 100% of the time, with no other feedback at all, is what you want - have at it. Go and edit the file, show us what you got. I can assure you I won't fly with it, because it sounds god awful imo, and I hate the lack of feedback, but maybe some other guys will appreciate it, I am sure.

But please stop expecting, guys, that we let everything go and start changing everything, because you have a pet peeve, or a special wish. That doesn't mean we don't want to know about all your wishes, because some will naturally align with what we want to do as well. But it isn't ok to then expect that we must implement everything everyone ever desired. It is totally fine to argue your points. And sometimes you will convince us, and sometimes you won't. But please take both yes and no for an answer. We cannot keep coming back to issues, just because one or another did not get their way. It isn't fair. We are willing to give you always more, always extra. But when we say no, return us the favor and accept it sometimes, too please. 

We do take ourselves the artistic freedom we need. And an artist who constantly gives in to this and that demand, kind of stops being an artist as well. An artist also needs to be ripped apart, for sure. But, we do also allow artistic freedom, so everyone can have a go, like skins, like cockpit mods, like sound mods. I mean it: show us your artistic creativity, we absolutely would love to see it.

Edited June 22, 2021 by IronMike

[Mud]

I have the feeling this thread has moved beyond the scope of what I had initially reported.  In general I think the internal sound is great.

However that looping tone which is present, and exactly the same in the Viggen and the F-14A (I don't think it's present in the B) is the only gripe I have.

 

If you listen to the audio file I linked in my original post, it should be pretty clear what I am talking about.

[Gunslinger22]

18 minutes ago, Mud said:

I have the feeling this thread has moved beyond the scope of what I had initially reported.  In general I think the internal sound is great.

However that looping tone which is present, and exactly the same in the Viggen and the F-14A (I don't think it's present in the B) is the only gripe I have.

 

If you listen to the audio file I linked in my original post, it should be pretty clear what I am talking about.

This is what all of us have largely been talking about, yet both IM and Cobra have either taken this a some personal attack on their sound design or that we're complaining about the entire cockpit soundscape rather than the one nuanced sound we've all mentioned. 

[captain_dalan]

14 hours ago, draconus said:

Sorry, I don't buy that alternative feedback. If 99% vpilots look for that, cool for them, I didn't come for that. There are buttkickers, ffb sticks or even moving platforms if one wants to go further into immersions. There are those haptic gloves whatever...

 

 

There's also VR and 1000's of $ worth of GPU's. Wish i could afford them. Or that someone would even sell them where i come from....

[DD_Fenrir]

1 hour ago, Mud said:

I have the feeling this thread has moved beyond the scope of what I had initially reported.  In general I think the internal sound is great.

However that looping tone which is present, and exactly the same in the Viggen and the F-14A (I don't think it's present in the B) is the only gripe I have.

 

If you listen to the audio file I linked in my original post, it should be pretty clear what I am talking about.

 

Funny, I think I hear what you're referencing but it isn't nearly as apparent or an nuisance for me as it is for you.

 

Musical is not the correct term; it sounds to me like a phasing resonance. I understand it's appearance in the Tomcat as you have two very loud and near identical sound sources; there will be interference patterns from these, particularly when they are at close but not identical RPMS, creating strange but regular ebbs and peaks in certain registers where you find momentary periods of amplification and cancellation. 

 

Why it may appear in the Viggen also i don't know, unless the different engine stages are also producing a similar phasing.

 

Trouble is there's lots of potential causes as to why you find it so apparent :

 

1. The human ear canal varies from person to person and the dimensions of that structure dictate what frequencies you find most apparent

2. it might be an accurate sound source but that your speakers/headphones could be amplifying that frequency range above the others highlighting it for you; alternatively it could be that the frequency response of mine is poor in the same area so maybe mine are not reflecting the actual designed sound.

3. the sound sample was recorded on a microphone which highlighted these (there's no mic on earth that doesn't colour the sound it records in some regard; the physical properties and dimensions of a mic determine this)

 

Edited June 22, 2021 by DD_Fenrir

[Wavehopper]

It's one of those things that once noticed is impossible to not notice.  To be fair I only hear it on the ground and once in the air I stop noticing it (probably because i'm distracted by more important tasks and alternating thrust levels).

 

It's also very low in the mix, although there are three distinct looping notes (ascending).  Saying that however this does happen with machinery.  I had a washing machine that would resonate similarly, and also the sunroof in my old car would resonate with alternating tones.  I would guess it's more noticeable due to the shrill whine of the jet engine (if it was a low note we probably wouldn't hear it so clearly).

Edited June 22, 2021 by Wavehopper

[bkthunder]

7 hours ago, Mud said:

I have the feeling this thread has moved beyond the scope of what I had initially reported.  In general I think the internal sound is great.

However that looping tone which is present, and exactly the same in the Viggen and the F-14A (I don't think it's present in the B) is the only gripe I have.

 

If you listen to the audio file I linked in my original post, it should be pretty clear what I am talking about.

Could not have said it better.

[Uxi]

On 6/21/2021 at 6:56 AM, Golo said:

Because you do not have a seat of the pants feel of engine performance, like afterburner kick, feel for any ac/deceleration, nor you have a tactile feel of pressing buttons/switches, that is all limitation of being virtual so we need that to come from some other source which is sound. And HB did a great job at that, I personally like how 14 sounds a lot.

 

Edit: if you convince HB to give you for example slider in special options to max out ECS sound to drown everything else out, by all means have at it. Just do not force it on everyone

 

 

Those of us with jetseats and button boxes get at least some of that.  Acceleration abs deceleration is definitely a tough one.  Slider sounds like a good idea thigh maybe a check box (loud ECS).

 

It doesn't sound like that looped beeping should be there at all though. 

Edited June 22, 2021 by Uxi

[IronMike]

We did understand what you guys meant, we did not take it as a personal attack or any of the sorts. We just don't agree that it is that disturbing, or wrong for that matter, and we are letting you know, that for the time being we are not planning to change it or to put ressources in significant sound changes that have not been planned. We're sorry if this of course does not satisfy your wish, but we kindly ask you to let us move on, please. Should we at some point go into re-doing sounds, which atm is unlikely, then we will be happy to remember these wishes and think of what we can do. Thank you for your kind understanding.

Edited June 22, 2021 by IronMike

[draconus]

What about making the already existing slider for switches audio working, Mike?

Edited June 22, 2021 by draconus

[IronMike]

4 hours ago, draconus said:

What about making the already existing slider for switches audio working, Mike?

 

 

That's definitely something we can think about, I would say. I need to talk to @Cobra847 what his plans are in this regard. I would not be surprised if this was the plan all along, but I have to ask first.

If we can give you guys options, we always prefer it, if we do. In the end we want you to enjoy the Tomcat to your best liking.