correct as is IFF not response with SCS depress

[Japo32]

I am becoming crazy!

 

I want to identify a contact in the radar. that is in RWS. Have boxed NCTR, and of course I have IFF on (XP) 4. Also I have an awacs and D/L enabled.

I press SCS depress over the contact in the radar once is sensor of interest and nothing. No change.

If I make an STT then no problem. 

What am I doing wrong?

[BIGNEWY]

Hi, 

 

depress and then press towards the radar

[Japo32]

Yes! someone told me in discord. Have to find other SDS depress button for the hotas warthog as I used the CMS depress for that and the SCS the DMS button.

Thanks!

[Hulkbust44]

FYI, NCTR only functions in STT, within 25-30nm and +/- 15° target aspect.

SCS depress was the old DCS way to force a CIT interrogation, this was completely fictional and has since been corrected to SCS depress + SCS right. This is due to the SCS depress being a system modifier for other functions we don't have yet.

Now a days we have L+S and auto interrogations. Box L+S INT or AUTO INT on the AZ/EL format. (Access in A/A MM via SCS left when LDDI can't accept TDC priority.

Mobius708

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

I'm still unclear about how SCS depress-to radar for IFF interrogation works. I mean all IFF seems automatic at the moment when the contact is under the cursor (TUC). So in order to NOT have IFF via TUC and use the SCS depress to radar to do an IFF, do I have to use only RWS with LTWS off? I actually tried that but nothing happens - was it suppose to update the HAFU in the SA only.

With LTWS on (in RWS), it's automatic when you hover over the contact but often the top half of the HAFU is just a default yellow staple (not a thick ambiguous staple which I assume would have been a sign of the IFF working). With RWS/LTWS on, hovering the cursor over a default staple and doing SCS depress to radar changes nothing for me.

What am I missing? Thanks. 

Updated for clarity.

Edited November 12, 2021 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[Tholozor]

Manual IFF interrogation will interrogate the TUC (target-under-cursor) when commanded in any radar mode with visible trackfiles (RWS+LTWS, TWS). The automatic IFF (when enabled on the AZ/EL page) will interrogate the IFF antenna scan volume or L&S trackfile every 10 seconds. IFF antenna scan azimuth can be seen on the AZ/EL page for either automatic or manual interrogations (shown as vertical green bars).

Remember that IFF is a 2-factor system that requires two different sources to declare a contact as hostile (lack of IFF response, SURV track declaration from AWACS, hostile NCTR print), but only requires a positive IFF reply to be declared as friendly.

Ambiguous trackfiles should be any HAFU where the ownship and donor halves do not match.

Trackfiles that are both ownship and donor contributed as unknown are correlated Unknown trackfiles (HAFU appears as a square) until an additional factor changes the HAFU status. Hornets can also manually set the trackfile PLID (Pilot Identification) status on the SA page.

To answer your last question, the manual interrogation may have done nothing if the contact had no positive IFF reply, or there were not enough factors to declare the contact as hostile.

Hopefully this logic will make sense here and I didn't miss anything:

There's also ambiguous trackfiles that can be generated with the manual PLID options, like setting ownship to friendly but the donor half is hostile or vice versa.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Tholozor

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

3 hours ago, Tholozor said:

Manual IFF interrogation will interrogate the TUC (target-under-cursor) when commanded in any radar mode with visible trackfiles (RWS+LTWS, TWS). The automatic IFF (when enabled on the AZ/EL page) will interrogate the IFF antenna scan volume or L&S trackfile every 10 seconds. IFF antenna scan azimuth can be seen on the AZ/EL page for either automatic or manual interrogations (shown as vertical green bars).

Remember that IFF is a 2-factor system that requires two different sources to declare a contact as hostile (lack of IFF response, SURV track declaration from AWACS, hostile NCTR print), but only requires a positive IFF reply to be declared as friendly.

Ambiguous trackfiles should be any HAFU where the ownship and donor halves do not match.

Trackfiles that are both ownship and donor contributed as unknown are correlated Unknown trackfiles (HAFU appears as a square) until an additional factor changes the HAFU status. Hornets can also manually set the trackfile PLID (Pilot Identification) status on the SA page.

To answer your last question, the manual interrogation may have done nothing if the contact had no positive IFF reply, or there were not enough factors to declare the contact as hostile.

Hopefully this logic will make sense here and I didn't miss anything:

There's also ambiguous trackfiles that can be generated with the manual PLID options, like setting ownship to friendly but the donor half is hostile or vice versa.

 

Thanks for the reply. The chart was helpful. OP updated for clarity. Just to check first: 

1. Does the "T" in "TUC" refer to any contact or a locked (L&S) target?
2. SCS depress to radar means holding SCS down and towards the direction of the MFD with the radar, correct?

My problem is not with the AZ/EL page - no problems with Auto IFF and L&S IFF there. It's with how and when to use SCS depress (now updated to SCS depress to radar MFD). Also with a Warthog hotas, this is a bit of a problem. I need to find a button that acts like SCS depress held down. Otherwise, if not done properly, SCS to radar just make a contact the L&S.  

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[Swift.]

36 minutes ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

Thanks for the reply. The chart was helpful. OP updated for clarity. Just to check first: 

1. Does the "T" in "TUC" refer to any contact or a locked (L&S) target?
2. SCS depress to radar means holding SCS down and towards the direction of the MFD with the radar, correct?

My problem is not with the AZ/EL page - no problems with Auto IFF and L&S IFF there. It's with how and when to use SCS depress (now updated to SCS depress to radar MFD). Also with a Warthog hotas, this is a bit of a problem. I need to find a button that acts like SCS depress held down. Otherwise, if not done properly, SCS to radar just make a contact the L&S.  

 

 

SCS Depress then release, then immediately press it towards the radar 

TUC is any track that your cursor is placed over

 

 

[Gogojuice]

Glad I'm not the only one wondering about this.

I think I understand.. but I was looking for youtube video on this and couldn't find out.  

Did I just miss it, or isn't there one?

 

 

[QuiGon]

50 minutes ago, Swiftwin9s said:

SCS Depress then release, then immediately press it towards the radar

That works? So you don't actually have to keep the SCS depressed while moving it towards the radar display, but instead you can do it in quick succession?

[Swift.]

14 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

That works? So you don't actually have to keep the SCS depressed while moving it towards the radar display, but instead you can do it in quick succession?

Thats how its always worked, at least thats how I've been doing it successfully thusfar

[Harker]

That works? So you don't actually have to keep the SCS depressed while moving it towards the radar display, but instead you can do it in quick succession?

Yes. I have the Hornet grip from TM and unless I'm mistaken, it's not possible to keep the SCS depressed and bump it towards another direction at the same time.

IIRC you need to bump it towards the radar page within 0.8 seconds of depressing it.

[QuiGon]

19 minutes ago, Swiftwin9s said:

Thats how its always worked, at least thats how I've been doing it successfully thusfar

Definitely not always, as it was sufficent to just depress the SCS in the beginning.
 

4 minutes ago, Harker said:

Yes. I have the Hornet grip from TM and unless I'm mistaken, it's not possible to keep the SCS depressed and bump it towards another direction at the same time.

IIRC you need to bump it towards the radar page within 0.8 seconds of depressing it.

Thanks, I'll have to try that as it is indeed impossible on the TM to depress and move it to the side at the same time.

Edited November 12, 2021 by QuiGon

[Swift.]

3 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

Definitely not always, as it was sufficent to just depress the SCS in the beginning

Sorry I meant always as in ever since the in and right motion was added.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

2 hours ago, Swiftwin9s said:

SCS Depress then release, then immediately press it towards the radar 

 

 

 

Doesn't seem to work for me. Example: RWS with LTWS off - SA shows default yellow staple (at top half of HAFU) contact. At RWS TUC, I do SCS depress then SCS to Rdr -> no change to default yellow thin staple in SA. And often, that action by nature will make the RWS TUC into an L&S which then gets IFFed automatically and the yellow staple (at SA) become thick (ambiguous). What I was expecting to see (if IFF was working via the TUC SCS depress and SCS to Rdr method) was the thin staple (at SA) becoming thick without the TUC (at RWS) having to become an L&S first.   

Edited November 12, 2021 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[Swift.]

33 minutes ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

Doesn't seem to work for me. Example: RWS with LTWS off - SA shows default yellow staple (at top half of HAFU) contact. At RWS TUC, I do SCS depress then SCS to Rdr -> no change to default yellow thin staple in SA. And often, that action by nature will make the RWS TUC into an L&S which then gets IFFed automatically and the yellow staple (at SA) become thick (ambiguous). What I was expecting to see (if IFF was working via the TUC SCS depress and SCS to Rdr method) was the thin staple (at SA) becoming thick without the TUC (at RWS) having to become an L&S first.   

 

If you are inadvertently commanding AACQ, then you are waiting too long between depress and SCS right

[Harker]

Doesn't seem to work for me. Example: RWS with LTWS off - SA shows default yellow staple (at top half of HAFU) contact. At RWS TUC, I do SCS depress then SCS to Rdr -> no change to default yellow thin staple in SA. And often, that action by nature will make the RWS TUC into an L&S which then gets IFFed automatically and the yellow staple (at SA) become thick (ambiguous). What I was expecting to see (if IFF was working via the TUC SCS depress and SCS to Rdr method) was the thin staple (at SA) becoming thick without the TUC (at RWS) having to become an L&S first.   

If it's not working correctly with LTWS Off, then it's a problem with the implementation in DCS. It seems to be tied to the presence of a trackfile under the TDC.

IRL, LTWS is just a display option, nothing more. I think in DCS, LTWS toggles whether or not RWS will create trackfiles at all, but IRL, trackfiles are created with LTWS Off as well, they just always show up as bricks in RWS. This could be the reason why manual IFF might not be working with LTWS Off in DCS right now.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

1 hour ago, Swiftwin9s said:

If you are inadvertently commanding AACQ, then you are waiting too long between depress and SCS right

Yes I understand that. But even when I do an SCS right fast enough without getting an L&S, nothing happens in SA.

[Swift.]

10 minutes ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

Yes I understand that. But even when I do an SCS right fast enough without getting an L&S, nothing happens in SA.

In this test, is the target aircraft friendly?

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

1 minute ago, Swiftwin9s said:

In this test, is the target aircraft friendly?

No, it's two hostiles. It's actually a training mission I made. You can try it here...  https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3317002/

1 hour ago, Harker said:

If it's not working correctly with LTWS Off, then it's a problem with the implementation in DCS. It seems to be tied to the presence of a trackfile under the TDC.

IRL, LTWS is just a display option, nothing more. I think in DCS, LTWS toggles whether or not RWS will create trackfiles at all, but IRL, trackfiles are created with LTWS Off as well, they just always show up as bricks in RWS. This could be the reason why manual IFF might not be working with LTWS Off in DCS right now.

Yes, I read RWS inherently has trackfiles that are 'revealed' when LTWS is on. Hence LTWS is just a display option as you've described. So perhaps it's bugged in DCS?

Regarding your last sentence, is there a form of "manual IFF" with LTWS on? My understanding of "manual IFF" is (as described earlier) having to do SCS depress to radar on an RWS TUC to see an update of the contact's HAFU in the SA page with LTWS off.  With LTWS on, TUCs have automatic IFF and SCS work is not required. Did I get it right? (I am also not referring to AZ/EL auto IFF and L&S IFF, those are fine.)

Thanks 

[QuiGon]

1 hour ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

No, it's two hostiles. It's actually a training mission I made. You can try it here...  https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3317002/

Well then nothing will happen unless there is another IFF source, as it always needs two IFF sources to confirm hostiles.
Better test with friendlies as they only need a single positive IFF response to be confirmed friendly.

Edited November 12, 2021 by QuiGon

[Harker]

Yes, I read RWS inherently has trackfiles that are 'revealed' when LTWS is on. Hence LTWS is just a display option as you've described. So perhaps it's bugged in DCS?

Regarding your last sentence, is there a form of "manual IFF" with LTWS on? My understanding of "manual IFF" is (as described earlier) having to do SCS depress to radar on an RWS TUC to see an update of the contact's HAFU in the SA page with LTWS off.  With LTWS on, TUCs have automatic IFF and SCS work is not required. Did I get it right? (I am also not referring to AZ/EL auto IFF and L&S IFF, those are fine.)

Thanks 

I wouldn't say that LTWS is bugged in DCS, it's just implemented wrongly. They need to correct the behavior, but it's working as the devs intent for it to work.

When I say manual IFF, I simply refer to the action of commanding an interrogation with SCS Depress + Bump towards the radar page. IRL, you can interrogate at will (and even receive IFF-only trackfiles) without needing to interrogate a specific target, you can simply interrogate the airspace in front of you. In DCS, it seems that you can only manually command an interrogation on a trackfile and since LTWS in DCS does not generate any trackfiles, you cannot manually command an interrogation on just a brick (according to what you said, I haven't tested it).

L+S IFF and AUTO IFF are indeed separate, the first automatically periodically interrogates the L&S and the second periodically interrogates the airspace (without generating IFF-only trackfiles, however).

[Swift.]

3 hours ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

No, it's two hostiles. It's actually a training mission I made. You can try it here...  https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3317002/

So with IFF in the sense we are talking, mode 4, its either a friendly response or no response at all.

What this means is that an interrogation, by Castle depress and Castle right, can only ever make a track Friendly or leave it as unknown. Marking a track as hostile will require another ID source.

[hein22]

On 10/7/2021 at 11:08 AM, BIGNEWY said:

Hi, 

 

depress and then press towards the radar

Sorry to ask but I have been away for a long time. Did this always work like this? I'm under the impression that I only had to press the SCS button to interrogate before.

[Swift.]

15 minutes ago, hein22 said:

Sorry to ask but I have been away for a long time. Did this always work like this? I'm under the impression that I only had to press the SCS button to interrogate before.

It was updated around the same time a lot of the other HOTAS commands for hornet were added