RedKite posted a Jester AI LANTIRN Tutorial

[lunaticfringe]

4 hours ago, draconus said:

I get it. You could have done this by: Jester menu, voice command or a direct bind which says "Jester move it a bit..." but direct control is just unrealistic and fail as simulation goes.

It's not direct control.  Not remotely.  He still selects the wrong thing from time to time depending on relative position of the aircraft and what is being looked at.  Instead of having him get jammed up when he's wrong, I can nudge him in a real time feedback loop, just like I would speak to him- "little left, little more, up a touch- there", rather than playing ring around the menu rose repeatedly, in a far slower, and thus less realistic, fashion.

"Jester, move it a bit..." with an additional layer or two of instruction with the menu isn't any more "realistic" than DHC or QEyes; in fact, it's even less so.  You saw the item of interest, and are talking him on in quick increments or specific statements, not bobbing and weaving your head like a boxer.  

At heart, this is the clicky cockpit v. keybind argument of twenty years ago.  That isn't to say the Jester menu isn't great for what it does, because it is.  But adding more on top of it needlessly doesn't get any simulation value out of the exercise and degrades the end representation of what is being modeled. 
 

4 hours ago, draconus said:

I see that gamey control

Front seaters don't put their eyes on a thing and quickly talk their WSO on with terse instruction; they go through a series of repetitive head-controlled menus, because the cognitives between eyeball point tracking and putting relative locations into words is gamey.

Edited October 15, 2021 by lunaticfringe

[ST0RM]

1 hour ago, ShinyMikey said:

(and that will probably get added later when they work it out with ED)

You're speculating quite a bit. 

[Q3ark]

2 hours ago, draconus said:

@Airhunter please don't confuse what's been done IRL with what's possible. What bothers me are things that are not possible IRL like 3min repairs and pilots controlling LANTRIN in a study sim. I'm not bothered by things that were possible but never used like F-14 w/Zunis or those 4 HARM's on F-16 (so I heard) which wouldn't need additional modifications. It's not about MP or advantage it may give.

If you don’t like the way repairs are done then don’t do repairs, if you don’t like how the targeting pod is set up for use with Jester don’t use it. All I see is you sulking because someone might be playing their game in a way you don’t approve of. Get over yourself fella and grow up. 

[sLYFa]

Why are people assuming HB will add ED payware content (i.e. animated deck crew and comms) for free to their boat?

[lunaticfringe]

9 minutes ago, ST0RM said:

You're speculating quite a bit. 

IronMike said as much. 

1 minute ago, sLYFa said:

Why are people assuming HB will add ED payware content (i.e. animated deck crew and comms) for free to their boat?

They're discussing implementation.  How it will come remains to be seen.  Free to those who own both, just free, a minor stipend, it'll come.  Just relax and let's see how that discussion goes. 

[ustio]

3 minutes ago, sLYFa said:

Why are people assuming HB will add ED payware content (i.e. animated deck crew and comms) for free to their boat?

Because that what the've said before SC was announced. I think there was even a GIF of the deck crew animation but its no longer available.

[AH_Solid_Snake]

I'm in the middle boat - I'm a lot more impressed with Jester's LANTIRN capability than I perhaps thought I would be, it does look pretty comprehensive and covers the 99% of situations in a pretty good "there's a second guy in the backseat" way when there isn't.

But I also am kinda left surprised after all the back and forth about realism that we still can't just accept reality and allow the pilot to bind up some of the radar / LANTIRN controls for those moments where you're just getting frustrated trying to tell Jester what you need. We can talk about how the direct head control is only 25% of normal speed, and I can counter with magic Jester IFF where one of the biggest challenges that I and my human RIOs (when available) have had is identifying targets with the available LANTIRN resolution.

Where one person draws the line on realism vs game is unique per individual. But for me personally, the LANTIRN mod and binding a spare axis to antenna elevation for the radar changed single player for me from a mostly good with occasional bouts of frustration fighting with Jester, to a oh he's not quite got it this time ... (manual intervention) ... sorted.

While I'm definitely going to make use of all the features I just saw in the video, and still don't find many problems with the Jester menus 99% of the time, this attitude of locking stuff out over time really makes no sense to me. You're basically taking a huge searchlight and pointing it right at those 1% moments where Jester just isn't a substitute, which is doing him and players a disservice.

 

[Northstar98]

45 minutes ago, sLYFa said:

Why are people assuming HB will add ED payware content (i.e. animated deck crew and comms) for free to their boat?

I wasn't assuming anything with regard to cost, and I'm not sure anybody else was either.

I just hope that at least some SC features (the deck crew and comms being the major items I'm interested in, at least for now) come some time in the future, if that has to be a paid update - fine.

Edited October 15, 2021 by Northstar98

[coreyhkh]

When is the update out? 

[Northstar98]

34 minutes ago, coreyhkh said:

When is the update out? 

20th is the currently planned date.

[captain_dalan]

Now that Jester can use target next for ground targets, any chance we get prioritize next for TWS? 

[Harlikwin]

1 hour ago, captain_dalan said:

Now that Jester can use target next for ground targets, any chance we get prioritize next for TWS? 

 

Yes PLZ

 

[Spurts]

The way LANTIRN was just implemented opens up a while new realm of possibilities for Jester, if they have the time, money, desire to recode him.

[Harlikwin]

59 minutes ago, Spurts said:

The way LANTIRN was just implemented opens up a while new realm of possibilities for Jester, if they have the time, money, desire to recode him.

 

Well, if you think about all this functionality fits very neatly into the A6 module. 

[Spurts]

Yeah, should make Tiger a real treat. 

[captain_dalan]

Fully agreed with both of you!

[ebabil]

in the Jabbers' new lantirn mission video, Jester can find a SAM unit that hidden in the trees by lantirn pod within a few seconds. Real players can not find that thing in a month and can not indentify it as sam because it is almost not visible.

I don't care too much and I will enjoy it but it sure will create some complaints 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2021 by ebabil

[Dannyvandelft]

in the Jabbers' new lantirn mission video, Jester can find a SAM unit that hidden in the trees by lantirn pod within a few seconds. Real players can not find that thing in a month and can not indentify it as sam because it is almost not visible.
I don't care too much and I will enjoy it but it sure will create some complaints 
 
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Sure you can. Switch to white hot, or black hot, and it'll stand out like a sore thumb.

Realistically, enemy forces would always put a SAM in a forest, not in the middle of a clearing. That's why infrared was added to the pods to begin with. Otherwise we could do everything with the TV setting (if this version of the pod even has that).

People turn on labels, or dots, to help them find targets, so then trees don't matter anymore either.

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[draconus]

8 hours ago, Dannyvandelft said:

Sure you can. Switch to white hot, or black hot, and it'll stand out like a sore thumb.
Realistically, enemy forces would always put a SAM in a forest, not in the middle of a clearing. That's why infrared was added to the pods to begin with. Otherwise we could do everything with the TV setting (if this version of the pod even has that).
People turn on labels, or dots, to help them find targets, so then trees don't matter anymore either. 

No, it's not that easy and labels are in the same realism category as Jester finding such targets, but it may well be the mission script doing it - more tests need to be done.

Edited October 21, 2021 by draconus

[IronMike]

8 hours ago, draconus said:

No, it's not that easy and labels are in the same realism category as Jester finding such targets, but it may well be the mission script doing it - more tests need to be done.

 

Nope, Jester's finding it because he has spotted it by that point of the mission 10 times over. If this was his first search, it can take him several minutes to find a single sam there. This is why I have players do the tanks first, or you would be thinking Jester is broken on your first try. Trust me, he's tuned fine in this regard. We constantly get reports from both sides: "too slow, cant find stuff" "finds too quickly, lazer eyes" - while both do not take the circumstances into account.

[Eagle7907]

I tried out J-man on a training mission I created well before this feature came. I had a waypoint directly over assorted targets including tanks, unarmed vehicles, structures not too far from Lake Mead (desert). I told him to go look at said waypoint using QWP. He did and before searching all targets were clearly visible on the LANTERN. I then told him to search for tanks. The image went left away from the area, down further away from area toward us, then right all the way across, then back to the target location before recognizing several tanks to target. After delivering two kindly packaged GBU-10s, I used the head look feature and told him to look at a moving convoy on a road. The area he went to was where I selected but not exactly over the convoy. I told him to search for SAMs and he found and tracked a ZSU-23 in the convoy almost immediately.

Very interesting behavior but clearly I don’t think it’s something like Jester already “knows” where the target is. It appears there’s a good deal of randomness to his behavior and somewhat artificial “flawed” feel. I love it. Much better than me just moving the Lantern on my own directly like in other modules. Until I can fly RIO or find a RIO to fly with, this is a great alternative. Thanks HB!

Did real pilots always have the Lantern display up? I’m curious because I’d like to see if this would work without it displaying for pilot and wonder if that would further the experience even more.


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