ACE AI Cannot Merge, Cannot Fight, Cannot do anything right (F16vF/A18) (M2000 vs me)

[b0bl00i]

Hello ED,

Please take a look at the attached tracks.

ACE F16 vs ACE F/A18, Guns Only - Nevada.

Both planes deploys speed brakes and "merges" at crawl speed. The F/A-18 doing 170ish knots, stalls and landsharks around, while the F-16 is no better. It also deploys brakes almost directly, ignores the excellent gun shot at merge opportunity, comes around behind the F/A18 and almost collides with it instead of shooting the cannon. This is repeatable time after time. I can see so many incorrect things I don't know where to begin.

In the last track (crazy again) the F-16 just "merge" and stalls/crash into the ground. 

Not sure what's broken but something needs fixing. Thanks for taking a look at this. Please make the AI great.

 

M2000 ACE vs Me

Stops flying and fighting and crash into the ground.

Not using any mods.

Regards,

b0bl00i

 

ai gone crazy1.trk ai gone crazy2.trk ai gone crazy3.trk ai gone crazy4.trk

ai crazy again.trk

ai more crazy.trk

ai mirage stops fighting and crash in the desert.trk

Edited November 5, 2021 by b0bl00i
adding another track

[b0bl00i]

@Flappie

[Flappie]

Hi b0bl00i. I'm a mud. I dogfight very badly, and have very little knowledge of what to do/not do in a dogfight. But I'll take a look at your tracks nonetheless when I have some time, because you sound like the AI is doing silly things than even a mud like me could see right away.

[maxTRX]

I've setup a few gun fights with 'ace' AI Hornets and in almost all cases the 'aces' acted like they've taken too many booster shots. I agree with OP.  

All of my setups were head-on, at 22k ft.  In the first fight, the AI blew through at high speed and didn't turn... hey, a valid choice. The second, 3rd and 4th fight:  AI makes an 'early turn' too early and slows down in a descending turn toward the deck (the hills).  I followed at corner speed above him and didn't gun him, just curious to see what the heck he was up to.  AI continued at high alpha, popping flares like crazy until the 'deck'.  So... in 4 out of 5 head-on setups AI Hornet flew into the ground. Then on the 6th hop, AI gave me a pretty good workout. We were on opposite sides of a circle for some time, then for no apparent reason he pulled up, did a pirouette and down he went... I still need to figure out what triggered his initial decision to fight like an 'ace' should. Well, ED also needs to figure out how an ace should fight... 

[b0bl00i]

I'm my humble understanding, this is just buggy behavior. The ai should be able to effectively merge and fight in bfm. This behavior seems like the result of too many incorrect decisions. 

@Flappiesorry thought you worked for ED and could report bugs. I'll add @BIGNEWY

Cheers. 

 

[Flappie]

I can report bugs but I need to understand them before I do.

[b0bl00i]

@Flappie

OK, what I did was some basic BFM testing with the AI. AI vs AI and AI vs me at a later stage. To my suprise the AI flies really poor in the situation I setup.
It's probably complex but review the track files and see for yourself. It's quite bisarr.

 

[b0bl00i]

@NineLine not getting any traction here. Please assist. It's a genuine case. I provided all the needed files. 

[maxTRX]

AI logic took a big step backwards... I tried fighting AI Hornet set to 'trained', hoping that dumber AI will stick to basic, less creative maneuvering and at first I though 'Hey, this guy flying a solid BFM' but... soon after, his creativity kicked in and I was forced into A/G gunzo:

https://youtu.be/KEtOk2c1wfI

[b0bl00i]

Check the track files I've provided, it seems like some major issues with ai perception / flying / tactics 

[schurem]

I take the current AI BFM bugs as a sign of progress. It don't break unless someone's tinkering with it

 

Latest patch has them do strange things as well. I didnt make a track but the flanker in the mirage gunzo instant action went up, up, up to where I couldn't touch him. Smart. Too bad he never chose the right moment to come down and tear the wings off of me. He just kept going.

[metzger]

I just did a few BFM sets with F-5 against Hornet on rookie, and he was actually smarter than I thought he will be, and certainly smarter then he used to be. Constantly trying to keep the fight at two circle, even when I reverse he will counter and go for the two circle. no infinite loops either. Not bad at all. Have to test more but this looked somewhat promising

[b0bl00i]

@Flappiedid you get a chance to review the track files? They are quite telling.. 

[Flappie]

No, sorry, it's still on my to-do list. And I'm currently 500km away from home. I will get to it when I get back. That's a promise.

[BIGNEWY]

Our AI use SFM ( Standard flight model ) it is an older simpler flight model and has limitations. 

We are currently working on new flight models for AI but you will all have to be very patient while this happens. 

We will share news soon on our progress.

Thanks
The Eagle Dynamics Team

[b0bl00i]

56 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

""We will share news soon on our progress.""

Thanks
The Eagle Dynamics Team

That sounds VERY promising. I've been flying against the AI for 10+ years. If you want some honest feedback, let me know and I'll test it properly.

 

[Snappy]

The AI FM is only half of the problem, the other half is their „decision-making“ process, if you want to call it that. @b0bl00i‘s example seems to be more a problem with the latter than the former.

I really wish this would get significantly improved. They still act very stupid and changing their FM won’t change it.

One example: Shoot at  them with guns in a tracking solution, they simply don’t react, they don’t jink, they don’t change plane of motion , they just keep flying in the same predictable previous flight path until the next burst unsurprisingly kills them.

Don’t even get me started on the constant looping or the vertical zoom climb , which simply  makes them a perfect target for heat-seekers against a cold background.

Edited December 3, 2021 by Snappy

[b0bl00i]

1 hour ago, Snappy said:

The AI FM is only half of the problem, the other half is their „decision-making“ process, if you want to call it that. @b0bl00i‘s example seems to be more a problem with the latter than the former.

I really wish this would get significantly improved. They still act very stupid and changing their FM won’t change it.

One example: Shoot at  them with guns in a tracking solution, they simply don’t react, they don’t jink, they don’t change plane of motion , they just keep flying in the same predictable previous flight path until the next burst unsurprisingly kills them.

Don’t even get me started on the constant looping or the vertical zoom climb , which simply  makes them a perfect target for heat-seekers against a cold background.

 

You are right Snappy, it's a joint effort for sure. Compentent AI with sound tactics, good dose of aggressiveness but not impossible. That coupled with a proper flight model and no cheating is what is on my wishlist. The analogue should be like flying against a human, albeit a good one. Scalable difficulty obviously.

 

 

[Taz1004]

6 minutes ago, b0bl00i said:

You are right Snappy, it's a joint effort for sure. Compentent AI with sound tactics, good dose of aggressiveness but not impossible. That coupled with a proper flight model and no cheating is what is on my wishlist. The analogue should be like flying against a human, albeit a good one. Scalable difficulty obviously.

At this point, I just want AI wingman who actually does what he's ordered to do.

[BIGNEWY]

Please have a read of this week's newsletter for some of the details, it gives an insight into how much work is being done by the team for the AI 

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/news/newsletters/a134f231fe8269e1c78dd6d0dd8c3c9d/

thanks

The Eagle Dynamics Team

[b0bl00i]

16 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Please have a read of this week's newsletter for some of the details, it gives an insight into how much work is being done by the team for the AI 

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/news/newsletters/a134f231fe8269e1c78dd6d0dd8c3c9d/

thanks

The Eagle Dynamics Team

Is there a rough target period for 2022? Are we talking q1 or q4? 

[BIGNEWY]

1 hour ago, b0bl00i said:

Is there a rough target period for 2022? Are we talking q1 or q4? 

We are not giving quarters, when we share our plans and give rough estimates and we don't meet it some people get upset. 

[ataribaby]

I am very curious how new FM fixes this.

AI is unable to refuel and even not pull out refuel probe now. AI do not attack even after merge. It is simply broken AI decision making as Snappy mentioned. Latest beta is completly broken for me in AI department.

Cat didn't accept me (just Cat 2 somehow reacted):
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1223243384?t=0h14m22s

Then AI Wingie was not able to refuel, even not pulled out refuel probe:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1223243384?t=1h43m58s
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1223243384?t=1h54m39s

And finally AI Wingman refused to attack (even later in merge):
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1223243384?t=1h52m51s

Basically it renders bought campaign useless for me and no I unfortunately do not have track, problems are clearly visible.

Edited December 4, 2021 by ataribaby

[b0bl00i]

On 12/4/2021 at 10:14 AM, BIGNEWY said:

We are not giving quarters, when we share our plans and give rough estimates and we don't meet it some people get upset. 

Roger that.

 

20 hours ago, ataribaby said:

I am very curious how new FM fixes this.

AI is unable to refuel and even not pull out refuel probe now. AI do not attack even after merge. It is simply broken AI decision making as Snappy mentioned. Latest beta is completly broken for me in AI department.

Cat didn't accept me (just Cat 2 somehow reacted):
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1223243384?t=0h14m22s

Then AI Wingie was not able to refuel, even not pulled out refuel probe:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1223243384?t=1h43m58s
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1223243384?t=1h54m39s

And finally AI Wingman refused to attack (even later in merge):
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1223243384?t=1h52m51s

Basically it renders bought campaign useless for me and no I unfortunately do not have track, problems are clearly visible.

 

I fly DCS several times a week and I know... it's extremely frustrating. Doing some BFM with SU27s and Mig29s..at the merge..they just go straight up until they fall down, not seeing any aggressive pull to get a nose position or anything.. Waiting for this AI fix is gonna be tough.

 

[Flappie]

OK, I've just checked your tracks and something is definitely wrong. An internal bug report was created a few weeks ago regarding the AI Hornet unit. Devs are working on it.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Flappie