More RAM or faster RAM? What affects performance more?

[JetCat]

Hi pilots

Because of aesthetic reasons I am upgrading the RAM of my computer. I like this black pure minimalism techy military prototype design of the T-Force Dark Pro, plus it is the fastest RAM available - it can go up to 3600MHz with CL14 timings. This thing is way faster than the current RAM but also very pricey and that´s why only 16 Gigabyte of RAM is possible.

Currently 32 GB g.Skill Trident Z 3000MHz CL14 is implemented into the system and DCS fills it up very good as you see in the Taskmanager. Will there be any performance problems when only having half the RAM gigabytes available in my computer next week for the first time? The RAM upgrade is necessary to make the computer look more stealthy and minimalism and techy.

Have users with only 16 gigs on board any performance issues with this sim? (I also have a Corsair Force MP600 NVMe which was the fastest NVMe in 2020 to install Windows and DCS on it for virtual RAM extension if necessary.)

Have a beautyful weekend!

Edited November 6, 2021 by JetCat

[Hiob]

1. Sufficient Ram > fast ram

2. faster ram > slower ram (diminishing returns above ~4000Mhz though)

DCS uses more than 16GB ram if available, so I really wouldn't recommend downgrading!

[Taz1004]

In your case, more RAM.  16GB simply isn't enough.

[Dave317]

I've just upgraded to 64gb of ram. 

I've seen dcs quite often use over 30

[Bossco82]

I dont think I have maxed out my 32gb of G Skill 3200 C14, DCS runs great with it. I do only fly DCE single player campaigns though.

Dont downgrade to 16gb or even sidestep to 32gb of faster dram you wont see much difference if any at all. The only way is up and buying 64gb of ddr4. Someone correct me if I am wrong I dont think I have seen 4x16gb sticks of C14 ddr4 in a kit??? Something like 4x16gb 3200/3600 C16 should do the job very well though.

[Hiob]

there are 3600/cl14 64GB sets available by now. for a brief moment I considered an upgrade…which would be a stupid waste of money!

[Bossco82]

Cheers Hiob, didn't know that i'll keep that in mind. I've not seen them in online stores in the UK.

To be honest though if I was thinking of upgrading dram at the moment I would have to weigh up on DDR5. IE cost vs what you get for upgrading etc etc. I'm running a 5600x X570 system right now so on the fence regarding what comes next and the gains it offers.

[BitMaster]

I just built a new system and put 64GB in it. 

Imho 16GB is not an option, really, if you want to use DCS seriously.

You don't need the fastest RAM money can buy, neither for Intel nor for AMD. The sweetspot is somewhere around 3200-3800MHz, cl14-cl18.

The best kits you can get use Samsung B-die and one way of finding them is looking at the latency values.

3200-14-14-14-34 is only available on B-Die kits, so is 3600-16-16-16-36. Those kits are 100% B-die and like to overclock if you intend to do so.

My new 64GB kit is a 3200-14-14-14-34 B-Die and my old 8700k uses a 32GB 3600-16-16-16-36 kit, also B-die.

Kits with 3600 16-18-18-38 can be B-die but could also be made of a few others but none of those can do such tight timings as B-die can.

 

Going to speeds above 3800-4000MHz and beyond makes little to no sense with DDR4. latency penalties equals the gains in clock cycles usually & the price is unproportionaly high. With AMD it's mostly contra-productive above 3600~3800MHz. 

 

The sweetspot is 3600-CL16 with a little tendency to more bandwith at a higher cost vs 3200CL14 with equal latency and a little less bandwith but therefor ~100€ cheaper ( 64GB kit ).

I bought the 3200CL14 and overclocked it to 3600CL16-16-16-36-1T and it runs fine, not even the slightest glitch or anything. But tbh, you wont see much difference

as long as you stay somewhere between 3200-3600 even if the latency is worse. Still, if you want to be on the safe side get low latency modules.

Since overclocking beyond 3600 makes little sense with my AMD CPU I opted for the 3200 kit and hoped it would run 3600 with CL16 all the way and it did.

And yes, they are also Black, no LED !

 

edit:

usually, 3600 CL14 is only available at 1.45v...and I would be cautious with this, depending on what CPU you run because it may not harm RAM but your IMC may not like 1.45v ( or even 1.47xv depending on your Bios/Board ) for a longer period of time. I would not do this on my 8700k as I know that chip doesn't like such high voltage on RAM modules. I honestly dont know how other CPUs or even my 5900x would handle that. iirc Buildzoid considers 1.45v as the absolut max for every day use, that is already a warning for me to step back to 1.40v, which is what I am using for most overclocks, and currently use for this rig. Out of the box the board applies 1.374v to XMP3200 and for 3600 it needs a little more with 4 modules. If it would need 1.45v to be stable I would dial back until 1.4v was enough to be stabe. That's roughly my guideline when I play with RAM.

 

 

Edited November 7, 2021 by BitMaster

[Hiob]

22 hours ago, Bossco82 said:

Cheers Hiob, didn't know that i'll keep that in mind. I've not seen them in online stores in the UK.

To be honest though if I was thinking of upgrading dram at the moment I would have to weigh up on DDR5. IE cost vs what you get for upgrading etc etc. I'm running a 5600x X570 system right now so on the fence regarding what comes next and the gains it offers.

@BitMaster is right though, all 3600/cl14 modules I‘ve found (all G.skill btw) are 1.45Volts.

[Taz1004]

These are the videos that convinced me to get higher clock speed rather than lower clock speed with lower latency.

 

 

But again, to original question, faster RAM only comes into play if you have enough RAM.  And 16GB isn't enough for DCS.

Edited November 7, 2021 by Taz1004

[javelina1]

been rock'n with 64GB's of 3200/CL14 for the 18 months. 

Cool vid though Taz!

[Thinder]

On 11/6/2021 at 4:13 PM, JetCat said:

Hi pilots

Because of aesthetic reasons I am upgrading the RAM of my computer. I like this black pure minimalism techy military prototype design of the T-Force Dark Pro, plus it is the fastest RAM available - it can go up to 3600MHz with CL14 timings. This thing is way faster than the current RAM but also very pricey and that´s why only 16 Gigabyte of RAM is possible.

Currently 32 GB g.Skill Trident Z 3000MHz CL14 is implemented into the system and DCS fills it up very good as you see in the Taskmanager. Will there be any performance problems when only having half the RAM gigabytes available in my computer next week for the first time? The RAM upgrade is necessary to make the computer look more stealthy and minimalism and techy.

Have users with only 16 gigs on board any performance issues with this sim? (I also have a Corsair Force MP600 NVMe which was the fastest NVMe in 2020 to install Windows and DCS on it for virtual RAM extension if necessary.)

Have a beautyful weekend!

 

 

RAM is not only used by the games.

There are ways to optimize the amount of RAM avaiable for gaming, starting by uninstalling/disabling every single app running in the backgroud that you don't use, allocating paging files to windows on a different disk, typically twice the size of your RAM, and maintaining your temp and superfetch folders (Run/%temp% and Run/temp%).

Those who optimize their P.Cs for gaming don't feel the need for more than 32GB, 64GB is an overkill for any game at the moment, but I can't pronounce myself on a 16GB RAM kit even this fast.

Your g.Skill Trident Z should have been running at 3200MHz without any issues.

How to Overclock RAM

Then there is the little matter of your CPU, because Intel and AMD doesn't make use of the RAM the same way, Intel are more like the old AMD, depending more on frequencies than latency, while the last generation of AMD, starting with the 5000, uses lower latencies very well, with a considerable gain obtainable when bounded with B.Die RAM due to tighter timings.

Consider this: Your PC is like a sport car, you need to service it and when you fit new parts, fine tune it so it can run as it is designed to.

 

 

[Thinder]

On 11/7/2021 at 11:24 PM, Taz1004 said:

These are the videos that convinced me to get higher clock speed rather than lower clock speed with lower latency.

You can't apply this to a Cl14 simply because they are mostly B.Die with tighter timings which mean better CPU performances under load compared to a Cl16 3600MHz, it will run slower under load, 6.04% at 4K in my case with a gain in GPU performance as well because the channel isn't shut down by the CPU controller.

Quote

But again, to original question, faster RAM only comes into play if you have enough RAM.  And 16GB isn't enough for DCS.

See above for the first part, second part, I agree with, 16GB is marginal even with super-fast/low latency RAM kits, but 32GB is enough if you run a Cl14 kit.

 

[Thinder]

Now, if I may share my little experience to give a wider insight on the subject:

To me it is a little bit of a false issue/subject, simply because those RAM kits cannot really be compared, they make good, selling Youtube videos but little more than this, the main thing here are Chips materials (B.die) and timing available to the CPU controller.

The rest depends on your CPU (Intel or AMD and their generations), and good RAM-to-CPU bounding makes all the difference.

Before I upgraded to the G.Skill kit, I used a Crucial "Gaming" Cl16 3200MHz 2 X 2 ranks 2X 16GB kit.

After watching a video while waiting for my G.Skill kit, I decided to try to O.C my RAM to 3600MHz using DRAM-Calculator-for-Ryzen, probably the best tool for the purpose, the results were rather disapointing: When it would boot (depending on timings tried), it would either crash during the test (3D Mark Fire Strike Ultra, 4K 2X MSAA) or run just over 1% slower than at normal timings and 3200MHz. CPU was the same 5600X that I am using today.

So at the end of the day, one should always do some thorough homework to figure which RAM kit will be the best bound for his CPU, there is no point fitting 64GB of Cl16 3600MHz if you're after performances, chances are you're going to run slower under load than with 32GB of Cl14 3200MHz especially playing DCS where load is the issue, your CPU will throttle back.

That's the main isse with CPUs, their controllers only can cope with extreme load under precise and controled circumstances, that is 4 X ranks and 3200MHz for non-bi-die RAM kits, if you want to go over this bootleneck, you need a B.die kit.

Those who have the budget and are willing to run higher frequencies can always go for a 3600MHz Cl14 kit, there will be a gain of course but this is only because the Cl14 kits are B.Die and posseses the right range of timing, allowing the CPU controller to cope with the load, without them you'll loose in performance or experience crashes.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Thinder

[JayRoc]

This was already testet with DCS. Conclusion 3200Mhz is the sweet spot.

 

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

Last time I checked, DDR4 3600 CL14 is 50% more expensive than 3600 CL16, and probably past diminishing returns.

For my current system I decided to go with 64GB because of an interview with Simon (iirc), where he said that the new version of EDGE (with Vulkan/multicore) would benefit from having 64GB of RAM.

[Thinder]

2 hours ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Last time I checked, DDR4 3600 CL14 is 50% more expensive than 3600 CL16,

Not saying it doesn't come with a premium but it sure come with a significant increase in CPU performance, it's a matter of choice, some might prefer O.Cing their CPU but the best they can get even with liquid cooling is still half than what a Cl14 3200MHz B.Die kit gives you at 4K.

I'm not saying people should get this sort of RAM kits, I'm saying that there are different solutions and that it is a matter of personal preferences.

Still, I was told by MSI support very clearly that for performances, the B.die kits have no equal especially if one plays games such as DCS which have a heavy load, more to the point, since the Ryzen 5600X make good use of lower latency, using it like an Intel CPU  with higher frequencies or larger capacities can be counter-productive.

Quote

and probably past diminishing returns.

Well actually, looking at the performances of a Ryzen 7 5800X, you'd be better off with this solution and running a 5600X without bottleneck, at the end of the day, with -6.04% under load, the 5800X will be slower if fitted with Cl16 non B.die RAM, <> 3.87% at 4K X 2 MSAA.

They share the same architecture and controlers, they have the same plus and minus, the plus is the architecture and use of low latency but you need a B.Die kit to make full use of it.

Having said that, it is not about the ultimate frequencies obtainable by those CPUs but that obtainable under load, when their controllers will throttle back, so one might well get the full CPU speed from a Ryzen 7 5800, but with a non B.Die Cl16, under load, the CPU will throttle back and limit its frequency all the same.

The under load bit is the most important because if you're doing secretary work you don't need B.Die but as much RAM capacity as possible, while if you play DCS where the RAM load is way superior, at some point, your non B.Die Cl16 RAM will hit its ceilling 6.04& sooner on its frequency scale.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Thinder

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

Perhaps some people are willing to pay almost €500 extra for a 3.87% performance boost, but I’m not

[Thinder]

59 minutes ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Perhaps some people are willing to pay almost €500 extra for a 3.87% performance boost, but I’m not

That's your choice, perhaps you prefer running a faster (and more expensive) GPU and Cl16 with this bottleneck and not been able to get the same results at 4K, I personally optimized my PC in view to use VR at this sort of resolution, so even a Ryzen 7 5800X with non B.Die RAM wouldn't do, in fact it would run slower, I chose to get the performances I needed, my cost were cut at other levels.

Best example is the fact that I use a Motherboard one can buy below £70 that give me the same performances than some twice as expensive but without making my coffee in the morning, a £19 Artic Freezer 7X for cooling good enough to keep the CPU below 76°C under the most demanding tests and benchmarks including CPU-Z running all cores at 4593.96MHz.

So at the end of the day, it's your choice but facts can't be denied, if one wants to optimize their PC for performances and running at higher resolutions, the best solution are the B.Die kits.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Thinder

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

1 hour ago, Thinder said:

the best solution are the B.Die kits

Mine are verified B.Die (I looked them up).

[Thinder]

2 hours ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Mine are verified B.Die (I looked them up).

Well in that case it's all gain for you.

If you use an AMD of the last generation, your CPU will stay performant at a higher level of load, for Intel I am only sure of one thing, those kits can be used to O.C them as was the case for the previous serie of AMD processors because they posses this B.Die Material and have tighter timings available.

But at the end of the day, it is everyone own choice, some people don't have the budget or don't want to use those kits because they don't see the advantage of using them but since they offer more performances than O.Cing the 5600X with liquid cooling or using the next CPU on the AMD lader with non B.Die Cl6 kit, it make sense if you are looking for performances.

Players who are limited by their budget can of course look at increasing the amount of RAM they have but there are catches as well, since RAM manufacturers can use different chips from batch to batch even for the same RAM kit model, one can end up with systems that doesn't want to boot and we already seen a case like this in this forum

So if one wants to increase RAM capabcity, the best way to do so is to buy a kit with double the capacity they have, if they just add a couple of sticks they take the risks of malfunctions. See below Eurotech Customer Support email to one of my request for information.

[Harlikwin]

A bit late to this party... 

I run like 80gb of ram, and I routinely see DCS use like 30, and it does go over 32 here and there but not by a ton, and I'm not sure if its really that relevant if you only have 32.

At any rate, I'm updating to DDR5 once I can actually find some, and I'm gonna try 32 at first. The only thing there that worries is the much higher CL timings, but I guess that's partly offset by the improved bandwidth.

 

 

 

 

 

[Thinder]

19 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

A bit late to this party... 

I run like 80gb of ram, and I routinely see DCS use like 30, and it does go over 32 here and there but not by a ton, and I'm not sure if its really that relevant if you only have 32.

At any rate, I'm updating to DDR5 once I can actually find some, and I'm gonna try 32 at first. The only thing there that worries is the much higher CL timings, but I guess that's partly offset by the improved bandwidth.

Things that are more relevant than the RAM capacity are: O.S settings, such as the number of apps running in the background while gaming. Paging files, size and location.

Boundind CPU-RAM: Latency? Frequency? Chips material? Number of sticks and number of ranks per stick?

All of this determines the efficiency of your RAM, you can have 32GB of RAM running at 3200GHz paired with a Ryzen 5000 making a better job of high load than 64GB of Cl16 for many reasons, but first of all, a Cl14 kit will be B.die with tighter timings, one rank per stick, if 4 X sticks your CPU will use interleaving as well and your CPU will run at higher load, meaning data will be recycled faster so you won't need as much capacity for the same amount of data.

If you use 4 X 2 ranks your CPU will throttle back under load. so your the channel will run slower and since your RAM will process less data, you'll feel like you don't have enough RAM capacity, same for Cl16 running at 3600GHz, under load it will slow the whole system down starting by the CPU.

Updating to DDR5 doesn't mean you will experience such huge gains, you need to bound your RAM to your CPU, increasing one aspect or the other doesn't necessarily work best, it's not the type of RAM (DDR4/5) which will make the difference, it's the timings your RAM can provide your CPU controller with...

Your CPU controller has limits, generally for non-B.die chips it's 3200Mhz and 4 ranks in total. If you want to go around those limitations, you need to allow your CPU to work with tighter timings and that's mean B.Die chips.

 

Edited November 13, 2021 by Thinder

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

16GB gave very long 'stutters' (up to 5 seconds) where the game just basically stops for me. 
This was no longer the case when i put 32GB in there. 

I have no idea how DCS uses RAM but from my personal experience i think you might be better off with 32GB if it's for DCS. 

Edited November 13, 2021 by Csgo GE oh yeah

[Thinder]

2 hours ago, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

16GB gave very long 'stutters' (up to 5 seconds) where the game just basically stops for me. 
This was no longer the case when i put 32GB in there. 

I have no idea how DCS uses RAM but from my personal experience i think you might be better off with 32GB if it's for DCS. 

 

 

It would be interestingto know what RAM you had before and after the upgrade, but as a thumb rule, 16GB is marginal.

 

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/downloads/world/stable/

Edited November 13, 2021 by Thinder