F-15E WIP Update Discussion

[BIGNEWY]

23 minutes ago, Japo32 said:

and still lots of YT videos comming of the F15E. It was a good idea if release was early June, but if it is 20 July, then I would say to all YT (if I was Razbam) to stop and come back in last 2 weeks before release. Hype train can be burned.

 

And some people like to have an idea of what they are buying that maybe sitting on the fence considering a purchase, being able to show previews is helpful, also those who are excited to see more and more content for the F-15E will enjoy. If the content isnt something you like I totally understand, we wont be able to please everyone but we do try.

thank you

[Agg]

22 minutes ago, davidrbarnette said:

It is always surprising to me how many people seem to say stuff like "I don't understand all the complaining"; It is really very simple:

Razbam: "The release is imminent!"

Four months later: "We had a miscommunication. Looks like release is in July (maybe)."

ED: "The Strike Eagle is coming in hot and soon you'll be able to fly...!"

Two weeks later: radio silence. "We'll let you know a date when one has been determined."

^ For those who don't understand the "angst", the above is not a best practice for marketing and communication.

 

And add to that the fact that every YouTuber and their dog has been given a copy. 

"Oh, so you've preordered the Strike Eagle? Well, it's going to be a few months more before you can check it out", meanwhile at the Grim Reapers "Can a Strike Eagle kill the Red Baron while doing the Star Wars trench run?".

[munckmb]

33 minutes ago, Japo32 said:

and still lots of YT videos comming of the F15E. It was a good idea if release was early June, but if it is 20 July, then I would say to all YT (if I was Razbam) to stop and come back in last 2 weeks before release. Hype train can be burned.

 

No! I really enjoy the videos. Don't watch them if you don't like it.

[av8orDave]

5 minutes ago, Agg said:

And add to that the fact that every YouTuber and their dog has been given a copy. 

"Oh, so you've preordered the Strike Eagle? Well, it's going to be a few months more before you can check it out", meanwhile at the Grim Reapers "Can a Strike Eagle kill the Red Baron while doing the Star Wars trench run?".

I got a chuckle out of that one! I never really understood the "could a Tomcat have stopped Pearl Harbor?" or the "can one F-16 defeat 437 FW-190s?" type thing. Reminds me of an adult version of "Who would win, a Polar Bear or a Siberian Tiger?".

[Japo32]

I think you misunderstood. I love see content. I have seen all of them. I am talking about marketing.

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

9 minutes ago, Japo32 said:

I think you misunderstood. I love see content. I have seen all of them. I am talking about marketing.

I dunno but somebody still cannot distinguish between the two. I have made a few analogues but I would let them be.

Edited May 25, 2023 by VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants

[Scott-S6]

1 hour ago, davidrbarnette said:

It is always surprising to me how many people seem to say stuff like "I don't understand all the complaining"; It is really very simple:

Razbam: "The release is imminent!"

Four months later: "We had a miscommunication. Looks like release is in July (maybe)."

ED: "The Strike Eagle is coming in hot and soon you'll be able to fly...!"

Two weeks later: radio silence. "We'll let you know a date when one has been determined."

^ For those who don't understand the "angst", the above is not a best practice for marketing and communication.

 

How would you have liked these fluctuating dates to be communicated to you?

If they'd given dates and then changed them, the same people would have been just as upset.

If they'd said nothing, the same people would be just as upset.

[fragal]

1 hour ago, BIGNEWY said:

And some people like to have an idea of what they are buying that maybe sitting on the fence considering a purchase, being able to show previews is helpful, also those who are excited to see more and more content for the F-15E will enjoy. If the content isnt something you like I totally understand, we wont be able to please everyone but we do try.

thank you

So it's ok for people to watch other people play the module they've paid for, for weeks or months with no hint on when it's actually going to be released and remove all the enjoyment they could have had themselves ? 

The end result being "oh another f15 vid released ":* youtubers:"

Is It right to ask people to pay for ea only to have to watch other people playing the product they've paid for? 

I think you should be asking youtubers to step away from the 15 due to the the current drama because now it really is going to be having to watch other people play the module we paid for - for literal weeks. 

Market in moderation - youtube access should have only been given for a limited period, because now it's just going to annoy people and this has been the case for the last 3 modules released it's getting old and quite frustrating.

[av8orDave]

14 minutes ago, Scott-S6 said:

How would you have liked these fluctuating dates to be communicated to you?

If they'd given dates and then changed them, the same people would have been just as upset.

If they'd said nothing, the same people would be just as upset.

I don't like the fluctuating dates being communicated to me... that is the problem. They said "imminent" when it clearly wasn't. They said "coming in hot" and "soon" when it clearly wasn't.

My suggestion is to start communicating stuff like "imminent" when you have a product actually ready for early-access... as in "we could ship today if we had to, but we're going to communicate that it is coming next month and spend that time doing the over-and-above polishing." Instead what was communicated was an "imminent" release, when they clearly had no idea when it would release or even really be ready for release.

Edited May 25, 2023 by davidrbarnette

[evilnate]

The radar looks very powerful and useful, I hope it doesn’t get nerfed!

[Ich Dien]

32 minutes ago, fragal said:

 It right to ask people to pay for ea only to have to watch other people playing the product they've paid for?

1). It went on sale, people decided to pre-order it. Nobody was requested to pre-order a product. 

People can be dissatisfied with their purchase, but the way you've worded it here is misrepresentative. 

1a). You also don't have to watch the videos. I think you should seriously consider taking a break if this is actually an issue that affects your wellbeing. 

2). These sorts of videos are standard fair and have been produced for virtually every module or map DCS have sold. This point has been repeated ad naesum in these threads, even by ED themselves. 

The timing is unfortunate, but the existence of the videos is not the problem

3). Asking Youtubers to step away completely neglects that some of them are businesses and can't accept such a request. It's not their fault in the slightest. 

4). If you find it "annoying and frustrating" multiple times, then why are you still pre-ordering things? The terms of the deal are never going to change. It will always be like this. 

If you are not pre-ordering things, then what is there to be annoyed about? You (like me) don't have any sunk cost here. 

 

Edited May 25, 2023 by Ich Dien

[BIGNEWY]

35 minutes ago, fragal said:

So it's ok for people to watch other people play the module they've paid for, for weeks or months with no hint on when it's actually going to be released and remove all the enjoyment they could have had themselves ? 

The end result being "oh another f15 vid released ":* youtubers:"

Is It right to ask people to pay for ea only to have to watch other people playing the product they've paid for? 

I think you should be asking youtubers to step away from the 15 due to the the current drama because now it really is going to be having to watch other people play the module we paid for - for literal weeks. 

Market in moderation - youtube access should have only been given for a limited period, because now it's just going to annoy people and this has been the case for the last 3 modules released it's getting old and quite frustrating.

 

First please do not use profanity here on the forum, even if it is masked, you can give feedback without it just fine. ( I have edited the profanity )

 

Content creators have access to the preview build and can create videos if they wish to, some may decide to wait also, it will be up to them. 

I understand your frustration, waiting can be tough for some people and you may not agree with the marketing, we have given the feedback to the team from many people. 

When we are ready to give you all a date for the early access we will, but it will depend on how the testing and preparations go, we do want to be 100% sure before giving a public date. 

again I appreciate you maybe frustrated and I hope once you do get your hands on the F-15E you will enjoy it. 

thank you 

[munckmb]

33 minutes ago, fragal said:

I think you should be asking youtubers to step away from the 15 due to the the current drama because now it really is going to be having to watch other people play the module we paid for - for literal weeks. 

Because you don´t like to watch them? What about others who do want to watch them? They would have no choice if ED asked youtubers to stop making videos. Bit selfish isn't it? You have a choice NOT to watch them as it is now.

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

33 minutes ago, evilnate said:

The radar looks very powerful and useful, I hope it doesn’t get nerfed!

My first reaction, especially the one by GS fighting against a F-14, it hurts and they have retired the F-14 too soon. If it were a D model, I could only speculate on who will win at the end.

[Jarhead0331]

25 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

First please do not use profanity here on the forum, even if it is masked, you can give feedback without it just fine. ( I have edited the profanity )

 

Content creators have access to the preview build and can create videos if they wish to, some may decide to wait also, it will be up to them. 

I understand your frustration, waiting can be tough for some people and you may not agree with the marketing, we have given the feedback to the team from many people. 

When we are ready to give you all a date for the early access we will, but it will depend on how the testing and preparations go, we do want to be 100% sure before giving a public date. 

again I appreciate you maybe frustrated and I hope once you do get your hands on the F-15E you will enjoy it. 

thank you 

This just adds to the state of confusion and frustration. If you don't have a date yet, why on earth did Razbam tease a July date in the Cold Start video? That July tease is what has triggered this crap-storm.  Yet here you are saying once a date is known it will be revealed.  By saying there is no date, what exactly are you now suggesting?  Could it be June? Could it be August? September? I guess anything goes. Regardless, this conflicting messaging is what drives everyone up a proverbial, and I guess in some instances, a literal wall. it is simply mystifying. The left hand needs to figure out what the right hand is doing and they both need to get on the same page before anything is communicated.  ED has been failing at this for years. Its either done on purpose or is a result of utter incompetence. I'm not sure which would be worse.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Jarhead0331

[Scott-S6]

1 hour ago, davidrbarnette said:

I don't like the fluctuating dates being communicated to me... that is the problem. They said "imminent" when it clearly wasn't. They said "coming in hot" and "soon" when it clearly wasn't.

My suggestion is to start communicating stuff like "imminent" when you have a product actually ready for early-access... as in "we could ship today if we had to, but we're going to communicate that it is coming next month and spend that time doing the over-and-above polishing." Instead what was communicated was an "imminent" release, when they clearly had no idea when it would release or even really be ready for release.

 

If they did communicate nothing, as you suggest, then there'd be a bunch of people screaming about how there's no updates.

if you overhype yourself over obviously deliberately vague comments like "soon" and "imminent" then maybe just disengage from the communication?

Or, you know, chill out and be patient. It'll be out when it's out.

[AhSoul]

These threads go in more circles than an orbiting Reaper

[Rodeo]

17 minutes ago, AhSoul said:

These threads go in more circles than an orbiting Reaper

 

 

[Ignition]

3 hours ago, Japo32 said:

and still lots of YT videos comming of the F15E. It was a good idea if release was early June, but if it is 20 July, then I would say to all YT (if I was Razbam) to stop and come back in last 2 weeks before release. Hype train can be burned.

 

You can always stop watching youtube videos.

[PD919]

1 hour ago, BIGNEWY said:

First please do not use profanity here on the forum, even if it is masked, you can give feedback without it just fine. ( I have edited the profanity )

 

Content creators have access to the preview build and can create videos if they wish to, some may decide to wait also, it will be up to them. 

I understand your frustration, waiting can be tough for some people and you may not agree with the marketing, we have given the feedback to the team from many people. 

When we are ready to give you all a date for the early access we will, but it will depend on how the testing and preparations go, we do want to be 100% sure before giving a public date. 

again I appreciate you maybe frustrated and I hope once you do get your hands on the F-15E you will enjoy it. 

thank you 

It's all well and good for marketing but with the sheer volume of F-15E content it looks like it's out.  If I had just discovered DCS I'd being going to this forum wondering why my F-15E download isn't working because someone on Youtube seems to have theirs working.  We are talking 1000 sub channels here too.  I want a quality product more than it being rushed out the door, but if it works well enough for a content creator, it probably works well enough for people who ordered it understanding it's early access.  It'll still be buggy as anything on initial release.  No one will be upset about that.  If someone is upset about bugs in early access that's their problem.  I don't remember the Apache getting sent to that many people before release.  There were maybe a few previews and Wags.  If there was one or two previews and Notso's tutorials, I think the backlash would be minor or nonexistent.

Edited May 25, 2023 by PD919

[Ignition]

1 hour ago, evilnate said:

The radar looks very powerful and useful, I hope it doesn’t get nerfed!

It should be very powerful but yeah I don't know how much compared to others.

[Ignition]

7 minutes ago, PD919 said:

It's all well and good for marketing but with the sheer volume of F-15E content it looks like it's out.  If I had just discovered DCS I'd being going to this forum wondering why my F-15E download isn't working because someone on Youtube seems to have theirs working.  We are talking 1000 sub channels here too.  I want a quality product more than it being rushed out the door, but if it works well enough for a content creator, it probably works well enough for people who ordered it understanding it's early access.  It'll still be buggy as anything on initial release.  No one will be upset about that.  If someone is upset about bugs in early access that's their problem.  I don't remember the Apache getting sent to that many people before release.  There were maybe a few previews and Wags.  If there was one or two previews and Notso's tutorials, I think the backlash would be minor or nonexistent.

 

The apache was made by ED. 100% of the revenue goes to ED which is not the case of 3rd party devs so they don't need to market their product outside of their own channels. If you want information of ED products you go to their channels, but a 3rd party may not have enough visitors so they prefer to give their preview product to well known content creators.

You're right about the first part, it may be confusing for new people but not a big thing either.

The preview copy of the youtubers it may be very very buggy and older version, watch the video of the razbam cold start for example and see how the engines work compared to any other youtube version. Youtubers will not complain of bugs since its a very nice opportunity for them to make lots of views, thats their goal. They don't care the aircraft isn't working fine yet since they only care of the views.

Bugs are a big problem in early access release, is the worst thing you can do because the community doesn't forget them.

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Really? Most of them say they were showing preview version which may be changed upon release. Also, some GR videos stated very explicitly that the IFF was not working at all, at the moment.

Continuing above, again I guess they would not tell you the bugs, crashes, etc (except for one I guess), as it would be not helpful to anyone.

Edited May 25, 2023 by VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants

[Cann0nF0dd3r]

20 minutes ago, PD919 said:

It's all well and good for marketing but with the sheer volume of F-15E content it looks like it's out.  If I had just discovered DCS I'd being going to this forum wondering why my F-15E download isn't working because someone on Youtube seems to have theirs working.  We are talking 1000 sub channels here too.  I want a quality product more than it being rushed out the door, but if it works well enough for a content creator, it probably works well enough for people who ordered it understanding it's early access.  It'll still be buggy as anything on initial release.  No one will be upset about that.  If someone is upset about bugs in early access that's their problem.  I don't remember the Apache getting sent to that many people before release.  There were maybe a few previews and Wags.  If there was one or two previews and Notso's tutorials, I think the backlash would be minor or nonexistent.

 

This for me is the main sticking point in this issue. I get the marketing aspect, and I understand release time frames. But the videos that have been flooding youtube aren't just previews by a few big content creators, these have been tutorials, full on missions that are being done by almost everyone with a DCS related channel. You'd swear it was released already or will be shortly because that's typically the pattern. Then to get smacked with a 2-ish month wait, it's understandable for customers to have a WTH moment. Whether it was ED or RB that made the decision to lift the embargo this far out and/or delay it after lifting it, it's not a good look. Just my two cents for what it's worth. 

[npole]

I agree, I left DCS for a while (old user...), I went back only recently and I wasn't following the scene at all.. so I've looked for the long awaited F15E right on Youtube.. I found many videos and tutorials that I was 100% sure that it was already out... soon after I've figured it wasn't ...but I got more surprised to know that it wasn't around the corner, I thought: wow, with so many videos and contents it's gonna being released "tomorrow".. but... nope! It's surely not an usual way to do marketing and legit hype, that thing seems to be owned already by the baker around the corner!

Edited May 25, 2023 by npole