The F-35 Thread

[aaron886]

No, it's not funny. To my understanding, since Desert Storm, the majority of on-call CAS strikes by weight have been flown by Vipers and Hornets. There's a lot of guys flying multi-role jets that would be pretty sad to hear you think they don't fly CAS. Better yet, tell a Marine Hornet driver that only Marine Harriers do CAS.

[NineLine]

https://theaviationist.com/2017/02/28/red-flag-confirmed-f-35-dominance-with-a-201-kill-ratio-u-s-air-force-says/

[SkateZilla]

20:1 is the best Debut in the History of Redflag IIRC...

[Esac_mirmidon]

I want to see a report about F-35 against fifth generation fighters like the PAK-FA ( simulated ) and modern SAM systems like S-400/500. ( simulated )

 

I doubt this 20/1 could be keeped.

 

Kill ratios of a fifth generation fighter agains fourth ones must be very high for sure. Is like the kill ratio of a F-15 against a Mig-21.

[gekoiq]

I want to see a report about F-35 against fifth generation fighters like the PAK-FA ( simulated ) and modern SAM systems like S-400/500. ( simulated )

 

I doubt this 20/1 could be keeped.

 

Kill ratios of a fifth generation fighter agains fourth ones must be very high for sure. Is like the kill ratio of a F-15 against a Mig-21.

 

Read through those reports... They say this 'Flag was designed to test the F35/F22/Etc against modern advanced threats, it does not specify which, but they pretty much spell out that this was a brutally difficult mission in terms of surface and air threats, near impossible for legacy 4th gen fighters to accomplish without the F35 and F22 to kick down the door.

[Esac_mirmidon]

If you are able to tell me what is Modern Advanced Threats could be great.

 

Again, even Su-35/Mig-35 are no match against stealth technology.

 

A balanced kill ratio report for a Fifth Gen. fighter must be taken against same level generation stuff. You are not going to extract useful info facing the F-35/F-22 against older fighters.

 

Everybody knows how superior is stealth/data fusion/high tech sensors facing no stealth/ no fusion no high tech frames.

 

A Red Flag event simulating a High Tech IADS with the last models of SAMs ( S-500/S-400 ) and counterpart stealth fighters could be much more interesting. i doubt in this scenario a 20/1 kill ratio could be possible. It´s easy you only need to put some F-22/F-35 in the Red Side and let them fight simulated. Bye bye 20/1 kill ratio.

[GGTharos]

If you are able to tell me what is Modern Advanced Threats could be great.

 

RF scenarios are typically more difficult than RL situations. That's about as much as we get to know.

 

A balanced kill ratio report for a Fifth Gen. fighter must be taken against same level generation stuff. You are not going to extract useful info facing the F-35/F-22 against older fighters.

 

Yes you are. Just not for 5th gen fighters.

 

A Red Flag event simulating a High Tech IADS with the last models of SAMs ( S-500/S-400 ) and counterpart stealth fighters could be much more interesting. i doubt in this scenario a 20/1 kill ratio could be possible. It´s easy you only need to put some F-22/F-35 in the Red Side and let them fight simulated. Bye bye 20/1 kill ratio.

 

This sort of setup isn't done in red flags AFAIK ... much like you don't see F-22 vs F-22 in RF. It's being done though :)

[Esac_mirmidon]

Yes, useful and knowed info.

 

Any different result in a 5º vs 4º gen scenario would be surprising. Everyone could expect such result. So for me is, well maybe interesting, but not surprising at all.

 

The real interest for me is how well the F-35 could fight against same level threats.

[Boagrius]

If you are able to tell me what is Modern Advanced Threats could be great.

 

Again, even Su-35/Mig-35 are no match against stealth technology.

 

A balanced kill ratio report for a Fifth Gen. fighter must be taken against same level generation stuff. You are not going to extract useful info facing the F-35/F-22 against older fighters.

 

Everybody knows how superior is stealth/data fusion/high tech sensors facing no stealth/ no fusion no high tech frames.

 

A Red Flag event simulating a High Tech IADS with the last models of SAMs ( S-500/S-400 ) and counterpart stealth fighters could be much more interesting. i doubt in this scenario a 20/1 kill ratio could be possible. It´s easy you only need to put some F-22/F-35 in the Red Side and let them fight simulated. Bye bye 20/1 kill ratio.

 

The dilemma is that (AFAIK) Red Flag generally models "present day" scenarios. Right now the rival 5th gen jets in Russia and China are still in a fairly early stage of development, and the CONOPS for both platforms has yet to really mature in either of their airforces. What actual capabilities they will bring to the table is correspondingly not set in stone.

 

I imagine this really complicates attempts to model them in an exercise where realistic representation/imitation of OPFOR threat systems is of paramount importance - you can't just throw an F22 into the Red team inventory and call it a PAK FA, or do the same with an F35 and call it a J31... at least not without first understanding what the PAK FA/J31 can actually do, and how they are typically employed.

 

The reality is it will be some years yet before the 5th gen competitors to the F35 and F22 reach a state of developmental/operational maturity. By this time the F35s themselves will have matured as well, with all the bells and whistles that Block 4 (and beyond) will bring.

 

Yes, useful and knowed info.

 

Any different result in a 5º vs 4º gen scenario would be surprising. Everyone could expect such result. So for me is, well maybe interesting, but not surprising at all.

 

The real interest for me is how well the F-35 could fight against same level threats.

 

Fair enough. With that said, the phrases "double inferior" and "can't turn, can't climb, can't run" have been catch cries for plenty of the anti-JSF voices out there over the years. The assertion being that F35s would get "clubbed like baby seals" even by 4th gen opponents. The Red Flag result at least goes some way to putting that notion to rest.

Edited March 1, 2017 by Boagrius

[Hummingbird]

Aren't they saying that the F-35's impressive result is most likely due to the F-22 support?

[Maximus_G]

Funny...

 

I deployed to the Middle East repeatedly during my career. 4-5 times a year 45-90 days at a time or more. I also deployed Tanker planner dozens of times between 1992 and 2009. I have planned literally hundreds of Tanker sorties supporting combat operations in Iraq and Afghanistan and I have flown hundreds of hours in tanker orbits over both countries. I can tell you for fact...the predominate "CAS" platform we supported was the A-10. And those sorties involved multiple Air Refueling's of the same receivers during their Vul period.

 

The "consistent flow of sorties" you describe occurs during wartime, tapers of to a structured assignment of missions during ongoing operations. It's done this way to because after the initial "war" because it's expensive to maintain the same combat presence AND to ensure a more orderly assignment of support assets based on threat. I.E. We assign the appropriate assets to the appropriate missions. Are there other aircraft in country? Yes. But there is a signifigant difference between "CAS" training and "Interdiction" training which is what many of the other sorties are tasked with. Absolutly.

 

Units have an assigned mission they train for. As far as I know, only the A-10 and AV-8 have dedicated CAS missions.

 

Sierra

 

What about UAV strike platforms? Combined with F-35s, are they expected to do CAS as good as A-10s do?

 

BTW, what was the intensity of A-10 flights in OIF, OEF etc? How much time did they spend in the air when things got hot?

[Boagrius]

Aren't they saying that the F-35's impressive result is most likely due to the F-22 support?

 

AFAIK Tyler Rogoway floated that idea at one point, but it got

in short order.
Edited March 1, 2017 by Boagrius

[Sierra99]

No, it's not funny. To my understanding, since Desert Storm, the majority of on-call CAS strikes by weight have been flown by Vipers and Hornets. There's a lot of guys flying multi-role jets that would be pretty sad to hear you think they don't fly CAS. Better yet, tell a Marine Hornet driver that only Marine Harriers do CAS.

 

Your understanding is incorrect. There is a signifigant difference between dedicated CAS and Interdiction missions. Yes Vipers and Hornets have dropped lots of bombs...who directed where the bomb hits defines weather or not it was a strike mission or CAS.

 

SIERRA

[aaron886]

Your understanding is incorrect. There is a signifigant difference between dedicated CAS and Interdiction missions. Yes Vipers and Hornets have dropped lots of bombs...who directed where the bomb hits defines weather or not it was a strike mission or CAS.

 

SIERRA

 

Please, factually refute this if possible: Air Interdiction is striking targets of potential future threat to friendlies but not an immediate threat to friendlies. CAS is striking targets that are an immediate threat to friendlies.

 

There are Hornet drivers doing both missions overseas right now. Again, as an example, Marine Hornet pilots specialize in CAS, and you just tried to say that only A-10s and Harriers fly that mission!

[Shaniaxx]

Well how the hell USA did/do CAS when A-10 and Harriers arent available, rotate out and they only have bombers, drones and fast movers? And its really USN out of CAS business?

 

And what about rest of the NATO?

 

 

In my opinion:

In Vietnam almost every airplane can do CAS, today everybody have some capability to perform CAS, some have more options, some do it differently, but they do. When bombers and A-10 can provide CAS from altitude (this is what C upgrade is for), rest of the aircraft can too. When drones can target militants in buildings and get hellfire trough window... from altitude, rest can do it too... its about sensors, smart weapons, network, not one platform with big gun...

 

A-10C can a will do CAS well, with some upgrades and new weapons even better, but dot say rest of the platforms cant do this mission, in many instances they will be even better in CAS that A-10.

[Maximus_G]

20:1 is the best Debut in the History of Redflag IIRC...

[Rangi]

RAAF F-35s arrive for Avalon air show, their first public display in Australia.

 

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-03/joint-strike-fighters-to-make-public-debut-at-avalon-air-show/8320856?pfmredir=sm

[WRAITH]

RAAF F-35s arrive for Avalon air show, their first public display in Australia.

 

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-03/joint-strike-fighters-to-make-public-debut-at-avalon-air-show/8320856?pfmredir=sm

 

I will be there with some friends and my son to support the new F-35 beast.

 

I was notified today via email that it will be shown to public as well

 

Link- http://www.airshow.com.au/airshow2017/enews/AS2017-Media-Release-ED23-JSF-To-Fly-At-Airshow.html

 

Also the new Roulettes PC-21's in transition should be at show -

 

Link - http://australianaviation.com.au/2017/03/p-8a-pc-21-and-c-27j-make-avalon-debuts/

 

Link - https://www.facebook.com/RAAF.Roulettes/

 

Some good camera shots!

[probad]

youtube

that was quite literally the most vain and vapid attempt at humor ive seen in a long time. trying to first paint trump's use of the word fantastic as "too casual" and then further constructing it as "sleazy" has no basis in reality and takes the joke 2 orders into "i'm stretching really hard to make up something here guys" territory. the punchline, besides being completely forced, is utterly devoid of any semblance of wit.

 

the writers are confused, ambivalent, or at best completely unconcerned about the f-35 itself, and the joke (if i can even call it that) takes a crude scattergun approach to appeal to anti-trump sentiment, anti-lockmart and by extension, anti-military-industrial sentiment and f-35 opponents, while attempting to quietly skirt the f-35 itself to leave a backdoor open for those actually impressed by the aircraft.

 

in the end, the real sleazeballs here are the show's writers -- shame on them.

Edited March 3, 2017 by probad

[aaron886]

Whew... talk about getting political. :lol:

[Pocket Sized]

Sorry to interrupt this vital discussion regarding the F-35's L33T K/D...

 

I have always heard of the F-35 having a rather bad TWR (which is believable given its M1.6 top speed).

 

However I've recently had a few people tell me that it can go from brakes off to angels 10 faster than a Viper... apparently this was part of an airshow demo. I am 99% sure it's total bogus, has anyone here heard similar claims?

[probad]

just where did you hear the f-35 having poor twr? the f-35 has the most powerful single engine installed in a fighter, and excellent acceleration is one of its core fortes.

 

1.6m topspeed is a result of the diverterless supersonic intakes, not lack of power.

[RyboPops]

I call BS on it as well. I don't have hard numbers but I can't fathom how a slick F-35 could possibly have a lower DI than a slick Viper. Add that to the fact that the F-35 has a lower TWR (allegedly) and the laws of physics tell you that the Viper wins the TTC to 10k competition every time.

[Sweep]

Sorry to interrupt this vital discussion regarding the F-35's L33T K/D...

 

I have always heard of the F-35 having a rather bad TWR (which is believable given its M1.6 top speed).

 

However I've recently had a few people tell me that it can go from brakes off to angels 10 faster than a Viper... apparently this was part of an airshow demo. I am 99% sure it's total bogus, has anyone here heard similar claims?

 

The TWR is fine if you take gas out of it. A lot of TWR calculations are early test stand engines + full internal fuel/clean aircraft. That's just fine and dandy with a Block 52 Viper with 7k gas and a 229 - But with the Lightning you basically have an aircraft that's *always* in a combat configuration where fuel is concerned; 20,000lbs of gas is a LOT. If you're doing airshows as mentioned, how much gas are you really gonna take in any jet? :)

 

Also, there's a story from a while ago about an internal A/G loaded F-35A out-accelerating a one bag F-16C (unknown block/engine/whatever) chase jet on a test sortie. IIRC this was on climb-out and something around Mil power for both jets. Not bad at all IMO.

[aaron886]

apparently this was part of an airshow demo.?

Boy, I hope that's a demo we get to see this year! Highly doubt there's a shred of truth to that.

 

 

DI

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