okopanja Posted April 30, 2022 Share Posted April 30, 2022 26 minutes ago, Hobel said: The track is over an hour long and the behavior depicted should hopefully be more than familiar. It served only once again as an example. I was able to read numbers on PC screen. At first I though it was related to speed/angle. It looks like the moment missile got notched is 0:15:00 due to the rapid G reduction immediately after. He seems to be in a perfect notch at this point, and your missile stops turning, which increases the separation of trajectories, since target is still pulls at 5G. Distance is 2.81nm, which is quite the distance, with angle +12.1 degree. At 0:20:00 the missile had a really good chance of reacquiring, but the vertical separation was already 3500ft and distance 1.29nm. Nothing wrong with his notch, he was really there, but why not re-acquiring? Was the missile battery depleted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beamscanner Posted April 30, 2022 Share Posted April 30, 2022 13 hours ago, okopanja said: Thanks! I will try to locate the paperback and in worst case order the kindle version. One last question: did you calculate that accuracy and if yes where did input data come from? Thats a generalized accuracy thrown around, not one I calculated. The actual formula is in the picture i posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobel Posted April 30, 2022 Share Posted April 30, 2022 1 hour ago, okopanja said: Was the missile battery depleted? on 27nm, I don't think so, and the rocket was there pretty fast too, as you can see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team BIGNEWY Posted April 30, 2022 ED Team Share Posted April 30, 2022 11 hours ago, Hobel said: Is such behavior intentional or correct? https://streamable.com/scad96 Not seeing anything wrong here. Forum rules - DCS Crashing? Try this first - Cleanup and Repair - Discord BIGNEWY#8703 - Youtube - Patch Status Windows 11, NVIDIA MSI RTX 3090, Intel® i9-10900K 3.70GHz, 5.30GHz Turbo, Corsair Hydro Series H150i Pro, 64GB DDR @3200, ASUS ROG Strix Z490-F Gaming, HP Reverb G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Raid Posted April 30, 2022 Share Posted April 30, 2022 (edited) vor einer Stunde schrieb BIGNEWY: Not seeing anything wrong here. Would appreciate your point of view why you see nothing wrong. I highly doupt that. By the way if you look closer to the short video -> he is in40k ft.. there is littlery nothing i can or i want to say about that because it is way to easy to see why the missile is "not good". Overall the Missile mechanic seems not working correctly. Still very very easily notchable. Still easy to defeat inside 5NM with just a cold turn. I miss the mechanic from 2020 (and not since the update of the end of the year) but without the desyncs.. Those where Missiles and NOT what we have here right now. Edited April 30, 2022 by Night Raid 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comie1 Posted April 30, 2022 Share Posted April 30, 2022 (edited) Perhaps this is more in line with intended behaviour? /s https://streamable.com/ked0lx ill need to make a clip of my 3nm miss on a cold bandit while I had a rate of closure of 200 Edited April 30, 2022 by comie1 5 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] https://www.twitch.tv/comie1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Raid Posted April 30, 2022 Share Posted April 30, 2022 just sayin. No description necessary. It is painful to see something like that. That is everything but a modern combat Simulaiton 9 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcoscosta Posted April 30, 2022 Share Posted April 30, 2022 2 hours ago, DCSoping said: Nearly every amraam fired now does something that makes my jaw drop. This is not even about notching. Amraam logic right now is to go after everything except the target (chaff, other missiles, the moon's gravitational pull) . Then go after chaff preferably from another aircraft 20 miles away, and then to get confused by the ground. If missile is still tracking after those, there is 'random miss error' or whatever to absolutely make sure it will not hit. Firing from high with better parameters (more alt and more speed) is useless now. So it's best to just fly low in the clown show with the rest of 'm because you'll almost never get hit unless within visual range (and even then, fly low = almost guaranteed of miss). But on top of that, as always, ED is building on ruins. All the missile logic in the world would not help when there is not even lag compensation, and hit registration is still client side. That is literally early 90's multiplayer capabilities. I think this summarizing all of our frustrations. The ED seems dont care too much with multiplayer, patch after patch, the problem seems worse. 7 Computer: Potato Modules: FC3 | M2000C | A/V8B | Viggen | F-5E | F-14B | F-16C | F/A-18 | A-10C | Supercarrier :mad::mad: | UH-1 | MI-8 | Gazelle | KA-50 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Raid Posted April 30, 2022 Share Posted April 30, 2022 Gerade eben schrieb comie1: The following were from ONE session yesterday. https://youtu.be/XrtHY8FXy64 https://youtu.be/XrtHY8FXy64 https://youtu.be/AssVNMgMvUE https://youtu.be/ZFXhQwEghTw https://youtu.be/Zfex4Bg0jpY https://youtu.be/cHW9H20Wstg https://youtu.be/PqBrcl0s1io https://youtu.be/yFBn1Kfu6-I https://youtu.be/4xjMspiKHcc https://youtu.be/VcizRbwtNdM https://youtu.be/poUcLD8QVMA the videos are on privat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archer.xd Posted April 30, 2022 Share Posted April 30, 2022 5 hours ago, DCSoping said: Firing from high with better parameters (more alt and more speed) is useless now. So it's best to just fly low in the clown show with the rest of 'm because you'll almost never get hit unless within visual range (and even then, fly low = almost guaranteed of miss). 100% Agreed. There was another forum topic titled "is a bvr a thing of past?" and I definitely think it is. Other than public pvp servers, I can't remember a single long range (at this point with these amraams my lr definition is above 10+) amraam hit its target. AMRAAMs guidance logic is broken. Yeah doppler gate was also a problem but not the biggest one because missile will do something weird and either drain its energy or just dive into ground before the terminal phase doppler gate can be a factor. And even though in the patch notes its said to be adjusted, I couldn't see any difference in 3 hours of 1v1-2v2 all terrain testing. It'd be enough if they just revert to pre-ins update amraams, they also were not perfect but way better than what we have rn. After that update, amraam guidance logic is just guidance without actual logic imo 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archer.xd Posted April 30, 2022 Share Posted April 30, 2022 To put in some more flavor : Many broken things with amraams in a single round, very easy to reproduce in fact it always happens. Mind the altitudes, ranges, and aspects. Back in old amraams these ranges were horribly lethal. Tacview 2022.05.01 - 01.09.16.01 (streamable.com) ?? no description, just found it funny how these amraams can do this (launching to jettison them, without radar lock or memory guidance) Tacview_2022.02.18_-_17.18.17.10 (streamable.com) PvP in DCS has been really annoying for a long time, kinda started with phoenix desyncs and all. After many months, and many reports, its still being said there is nothing wrong with missiles and we can't see any improvement. Even though patch notes sometimes include fixes or adjustments, nothing changes. Im getting tired of saying "I hope they'll fix it" and kinda getting tired of being patient. This is not an insult. I and probably many others just want the best for both ED and us. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comie1 Posted May 1, 2022 Share Posted May 1, 2022 (edited) Here are 11 examples from one session. Edited May 1, 2022 by comie1 4 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] https://www.twitch.tv/comie1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARLAN_ Posted May 1, 2022 Share Posted May 1, 2022 Had a mission tonight, 5 aircraft, 18 AMRAAM fired, 3 hits. 16.7% PK. Almost every single was missing ridiculously easily, something is definitely very wrong this patch. Hopefully this gets fixed soon! An AMRAAM should have a very reliable and high Pk vs. a target that does not kinematically defeat the missile (drag away/turn cold), missiles are being defeated right now by gentle descents hot aspect. 6 Virtual CVW-8 - The mission of Virtual Carrier Air Wing EIGHT is to provide its members with an organization committed to presenting an authentic representation of U.S. Navy Carrier Air Wing operations in training and combat environments based on the real world experience of its real fighter pilots, air intercept controllers, airbosses, and many others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobel Posted May 1, 2022 Share Posted May 1, 2022 (edited) 20 hours ago, BIGNEWY said: Not seeing anything wrong here. Okay but shouldn't the notch vulnerability be adjusted with the update? Before the patch an approach speed of over 55km/h was necessary for a flying object (with 5RCS) if the value was below that the missile did not see it anymore. This can be tested pretty accurately in dcs they will always observe the same result. After the update this is exactly still the case, there was no change. And this also coincides with the experience reports of the others here So was this forgotten to include here or are there problems elsewhere? Or how exactly is this statement to be interpreted? Quote Weapons. AMRAAM's were too easy to notch when performing a notching maneuver inside of pitbull range - solved. Improved range gate modeling for missiles with active radar sensors. Edited May 1, 2022 by Hobel 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team BIGNEWY Posted May 1, 2022 ED Team Share Posted May 1, 2022 The team are looking into the close range shots currently. thanks Forum rules - DCS Crashing? Try this first - Cleanup and Repair - Discord BIGNEWY#8703 - Youtube - Patch Status Windows 11, NVIDIA MSI RTX 3090, Intel® i9-10900K 3.70GHz, 5.30GHz Turbo, Corsair Hydro Series H150i Pro, 64GB DDR @3200, ASUS ROG Strix Z490-F Gaming, HP Reverb G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archer.xd Posted May 1, 2022 Share Posted May 1, 2022 (edited) Is it possible for them to just revert to old amraams if thats a thing? I understand it's open beta (although broken amraams are also in stable) but its been really long with these problems. If we could just get the old amraams at least we could enjoy literally only thing we do in DCS. Meanwhile team would work on new amraams and if they need testing they always have the cb testers (Late 2020 versions is what I mean by old amraams) @BIGNEWY Edited May 1, 2022 by vtaf_archer added date 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBigTatanka Posted May 1, 2022 Share Posted May 1, 2022 Model MPRF, don't allow any defeat besides kinnematic once the missile is MPRF. Problem solved. Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk 1 1 Dances, PhD Jet Hobo https://v65th.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunder Chicken22 Posted May 2, 2022 Share Posted May 2, 2022 Throwing my little test against the AI in the hat. The last shot was particularly egregious but I'd argue most of these are high Pk shots. I think the only way I got the kill on the first Flanker was because it was firing just about the same time my missile completed the intercept. I couldn't get get kills on a PvE training server at all this morning despite firing at highly favorable targets and launch conditions. This includes supporting the shots until they go pitbull. Keep in mind this is on a training server with lower skill AI. I took like 8 or 9 shots and couldn't buy a kill. Tacview-20220502-085340-DCS-Syria Air Combat Training-1.zip.acmi 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J20Stronk Posted May 2, 2022 Share Posted May 2, 2022 It's all skill issues guys - have you all thought about getting good? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoorMouse Posted May 2, 2022 Share Posted May 2, 2022 On 4/30/2022 at 7:24 AM, BIGNEWY said: Not seeing anything wrong here. A giant radar return less than a mile directly off the nose of the missile doesn't raise any red flags for you? Its going to be hard to have a discussion If the starting point is that far apart, quite frankly. Only because stating something as 100% certain is foolish- I find it HIGHLY UNLIKELY that an Aim120's seeker and couldn't tell the difference between terrain very far away, and a f14 very close (we don't even need to consider that DCS does not simulate geometry of the aircraft to compute RCS either). Under no reaonable circumstances besides a major failure of equipment or software should that missile have missed. Please, I think we would all like to hear the rationale for how that missile, with look down capabilities, Medium PRF signal processing, and a host of other modern features, could lose track of a Tomcat at 1000 feet from impact against clear blue sky or a ground which is miles away. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunder Chicken22 Posted May 2, 2022 Share Posted May 2, 2022 (edited) Another upload if it helps. Did launch a bit on the early side, two shots per target at 27nm from the high 20s. M 1.16 on my jet, bandit M 0.85. Both tracked, lost then regained then were trashed again and the banding wasn't in a 90 degree notch, instead closer to 50 degrees. First missile was doing about M 1.7 when it lost track and went stupid. Following images are when the missile lost track: Both shots lost track at the same time despite being having different intercept angles and positions. Tacview-20220502-122100-DCS-4YA_CAU_PVE_v6.zip.acmi Edited May 2, 2022 by Thunder Chicken22 Adding tacview file 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team BIGNEWY Posted May 2, 2022 ED Team Share Posted May 2, 2022 again I appreciate the tacviews but we need dcs track replays that can be used on our internal versions. With that said I have two good track replays sent to me in private and we will look closer. thanks 1 Forum rules - DCS Crashing? Try this first - Cleanup and Repair - Discord BIGNEWY#8703 - Youtube - Patch Status Windows 11, NVIDIA MSI RTX 3090, Intel® i9-10900K 3.70GHz, 5.30GHz Turbo, Corsair Hydro Series H150i Pro, 64GB DDR @3200, ASUS ROG Strix Z490-F Gaming, HP Reverb G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldIronsides Posted May 2, 2022 Share Posted May 2, 2022 U.S weapons tend to be understated on paper performance wise, while Soviet made weapons are overstated on paper.. The 120 should see a decent bump here and Soviet missiles should be failing about 60% of the time (at least that's what DoD estimates how their missiles are performing in Ukraine). More or less any soviet jet shooting a missile should need only but a flare or 2 to fool it and should probably all out fail a certain % of the time. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xhonas Posted May 2, 2022 Share Posted May 2, 2022 1 hour ago, BIGNEWY said: again I appreciate the tacviews but we need dcs track replays that can be used on our internal versions. With that said I have two good track replays sent to me in private and we will look closer. thanks Here is a track of the main issue, the missile being too easy to notch. There are other issues in multiplayer causing missiles to miss in unreasonable situations as pointed out by others in this thread that are a harder to reproduce in a single player mission. aim120 too easy to notch_1.trk Also, the missile sometimes behaves like an iron dome kind of system. Look at this track. I chose the F/A-18 because its radar can reliably track missiles (for an unknow reason) to demonstrate the following problem: When you're having a close range fight and both planes fires simultaneously, the missiles often will swap target and they start tracking each other instead of tracking the planes, even when youre 100% sure that the contact you fired your missile was an enemy airplane. It happens a lot with the F16 in MP and its radar can't even track missiles, so there is no reason for the missiles to swap targets. Aim120 iron dome_1.trk 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team BIGNEWY Posted May 2, 2022 ED Team Share Posted May 2, 2022 thanks Xhonas we will check them. 2 Forum rules - DCS Crashing? Try this first - Cleanup and Repair - Discord BIGNEWY#8703 - Youtube - Patch Status Windows 11, NVIDIA MSI RTX 3090, Intel® i9-10900K 3.70GHz, 5.30GHz Turbo, Corsair Hydro Series H150i Pro, 64GB DDR @3200, ASUS ROG Strix Z490-F Gaming, HP Reverb G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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