Clarification on future of WW2 Asset Pack

[kablamoman]

1 hour ago, NineLine said:

[...] I would love to see some sort of option to allow MP server play without it, but giving it away outright is not really an option. [...]

As a customer who has already purchased the WWII asset pack and maps, I would love nothing more than to see the policy on this change, as it would mean a healthier online community, and more intrinsic value bestowed upon each of the warbird aircraft modules. Because of this added value, I would not feel short-changed one bit for having paid full price to support the product prior. I also believe, though I obviously can't substantiate this with any meaningful proof, that it would generate more interest in the WW2 product overall, which would hopefully lead to more module sales (in addition to asset pack and map sales for mission makers and single player enthusiasts).

Heck, even a slight increase in aircraft module price to offset the cost of the asset pack would be a better way to go.

You may not be able to say, but has any serious internal cost-benefit analysis been done or brought up in regard to this aspect of the MP segment of the customer base?

It kills me to see so much being done right with WWII -- with all of the amazing flight and systems modeling -- but then to see the MP side of things be consistently hamstrung by this one business decision, since the beginning.

Edited August 30, 2023 by kablamoman

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

 

1 hour ago, NineLine said:

I do not think this is a fair statement, giving away something that has costs associated with a product doesn't always help. I would love to see some sort of option to allow MP server play without it, but giving it away outright is not really an option. The costs associated with making highly detailed models these days is growing all the time, not to mention the time it takes to create them. 

 

How is that different that every other modern AI\static item I can plop on the map in the ME?

Did those not have any production costs?  

Why do I not have to buy a Modern War Asset Pack?  You just have all those items in the ME as part of the base game.  Why don't you give the finger to those guys?

 

I understand you guys had some additional costs when you first took over the WWII kickstarter project but that was YEARS ago.

You're just shooting yourselves in foot.  You're going to lose a lot of sales on much more expensive modules and maps because you are trying to nickle-and-dime players on a asset pack.

 

How would you feel if you just bought a Ferrari and the salesman said, "Wonderful.  Now, would you also like to buy a steering wheel and tires to go with that?  Those are extra."

 

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by [16AGR] CptTrips

[razo+r]

1 hour ago, NineLine said:

I do not think this is a fair statement, giving away something that has costs associated with a product doesn't always help. I would love to see some sort of option to allow MP server play without it, but giving it away outright is not really an option. The costs associated with making highly detailed models these days is growing all the time, not to mention the time it takes to create them. 

We do care about the modelling and realism of our WWII modules, but we have chosen a different path of quality vs quantity. Things take time, but when they are done they are done the very best they can be. IMHO. 

Ideally, more 3rd Parties doing WWII would be the ultimate, but also realize while WWII aircraft do not have complex computer systems to model, they have their own challenges. 

I have mixed feelings about this statement. I get that people need to get paid for their work, but the way it is currently implemented in DCS raises questions, at least for me. 

Why do we need to pay for WWII assets, but not modern assets that ED is slowly implementing? Units that are already existing but get reworked, okay you can argue if they should be free or not. But what about units that didn't exist just like the WWII assets? Why do we have to pay for a Panzer IV but not for a T-72B3? Or the SCUD, Silkworm, Chieftain, Leo 2A4, 2A6, 2A6M? All these could have been in a modern units assets pack to buy, but they were given for free instead. 

 

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

 

 

What do you think would happen to your business if you took all modern war AI\static assets out of the base game and put them into a Modern War Asset Pack that players had to buy to put them on their map or play on a server that had?

 

Would that help your business, or hurt your business?

 

If you admit that would hurt your business, explain to me why the WWII Asset Pack doesn't.

 

If you claim that wouldn't hurt your business, do it and prove me wrong.

 

[MadKreator]

I always wondered why ED doesn’t let/ have 3rd parties develop asset packs for the game ( maybe they do in a way). Payware or not. I have a couple mod packs, Military asset mod, civilian asset mod, and one for ships( can’t think of the name) and they are great when you see them in action. It really brings more life into the DCS World. Considering what it probably costs ED to pay their developers to make these, why not offer the people that make these free ones some money to buy their asset pack(s) and officially merge them into the game? I mean they work just fine in the game. Seems like a win win. There’s thousands of static and AI objects that could be added. All sorts of military and civilian vehicles, aircraft replicas, structures, even just hay bales, sandbags, fuel tanks, different fences, even piles of dirt or rubble from construction. Anything and everything to flesh out the world more. Even if they are just fillers.  Customers are happy to get more assets in the core game that aren’t considered “mods”, Campaign/ mission makers have a huge variety of things to choose from, the people developing them get paid something for them, and  it would probably cost ED less than having one of their own developers sit there and create them. Not my business of course, but subcontracting that kind of thing seems like a relatively cheap way to add a lot of detail to the game that many people want.

Edited August 30, 2023 by MadKreator

[Silver_Dragon]

1 hour ago, MadKreator said:

I always wondered why ED doesn't let/ have 3rd parties develop asset packs for the game ( maybe they do in a way). Payware or not.

Sorry but that has false, from 2013 some 3rd parties have "assets pack teams" and others move to add them.

• Deka (Chinnese Assets Pack) with some aircrafts, ships and vehicles and more on develop
• Heatblur (UsNavy Assets Pack) with ships and some aircrafts (UsNavy / Sweden) on develop
• RAZBAM (France/USMC/UK/Argentine assets pack) with aircrafts, ships and vehicles and more on develop

Other on progres:

• Check Six Simulation (Australia Assets Pack) with aircrafts on progress
• Magnitude 3 (WW2 Pacific Assets Pack) with aircrafts, ships and vehicules on progress
• Miltech 5/PD (Germany Assets Pack) with aircrafts and vehicles on progress

The problem with those "hundreds" of 3D mods and AIs made by the community, is that none of them have brought to the table if there are any legal issues or third party claims on their work. In that case, ED is not going to get their fingers caught in the vice that by adding vehicle, plane or ship X or Y, they will run into a copyright claim or a cease and desist from a third party or even that it is another company's 3D model used by a Modder.

In that case ED will always ask either that team becomes a 3rd party, signs a contract, their work is approved by ED, that a certain standard of quality is reached in the models and will ask for legal guarantees that the developers work is legal. I don't think ED will outsource because of the problems outlined above. There have been problems before, even with a certain defunct 3rd Party, for ED to now get into legal trouble.

[MadKreator]

8 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

Sorry but that has false, from 2013 some 3rd parties have "assets pack teams" and others move to add them.

• Deka (Chinnese Assets Pack) with some aircrafts, ships and vehicles and more on develop
• Heatblur (UsNavy Assets Pack) with ships and some aircrafts (UsNavy / Sweden) on develop
• RAZBAM (France/USMC/UK/Argentine assets pack) with aircrafts, ships and vehicles and more on develop

Other on progres:

• Check Six Simulation (Australia Assets Pack) with aircrafts on progress
• Magnitude 3 (WW2 Pacific Assets Pack) with aircrafts, ships and vehicules on progress
• Miltech 5/PD (Germany Assets Pack) with aircrafts and vehicles on progress

The problem with those "hundreds" of 3D mods and AIs made by the community, is that none of them have brought to the table if there are any legal issues or third party claims on their work. In that case, ED is not going to get their fingers caught in the vice that by adding vehicle, plane or ship X or Y, they will run into a copyright claim or a cease and desist from a third party or even that it is another company's 3D model used by a Modder.

In that case ED will always ask either that team becomes a 3rd party, signs a contract, their work is approved by ED, that a certain standard of quality is reached in the models and will ask for legal guarantees that the developers work is legal. I don't think ED will outsource because of the problems outlined above. There have been problems before, even with a certain defunct 3rd Party, for ED to now get into legal trouble.

Ah yes, the legal side. That makes sense. They would need to be a bit more cautious I suppose with aircraft and military vehicles. Probably not so much with generic structures and scenery. It was just a thought, no harm done

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

2 hours ago, Silver_Dragon said:

• Magnitude 3 (WW2 Pacific Assets Pack) with aircrafts, ships and vehicules on progress

 

There is going to be a separate Pacific WW2 Asset Pack?

Separate from the WWII Asset Pack I already bought? Not just added to?

Is that going to be a free pack?

 

[Gunfreak]

4 hours ago, [16AGR] CptTrips said:

 

There is going to be a separate Pacific WW2 Asset Pack?

Separate from the WWII Asset Pack I already bought? Not just added to?

Is that going to be a free pack?

 

It's going to come with the Corsair as far as I know. 

[Art-J]

10 hours ago, [16AGR] CptTrips said:

How is that different that every other modern AI\static item I can plop on the map in the ME?

Did those not have any production costs?  

Why do I not have to buy a Modern War Asset Pack?  You just have all those items in the ME as part of the base game.  Why don't you give the finger to those guys?

I'd hazard a guess it's because modern aircraft and asset modules have always been and will always be THE core of ED business (and of majority of 3rd parties who flooded the last months newsletters with their jets and tuboprops announcements). Big modern module sale figures allow them to add modern ground and naval assets to the coregame free of charge.

DCS WWII playerbase is and will likely remain small in comparison, so we pay extra for being a niche segment. Economy of scale 101, simple as that. And I say it as warbird player for the most part. Even if a bit more attention might be given to WWII content by ED in the near future (as per Wags' statements in recent podcast), I still expect it to remain a side-project of their whole business. As mentioned, 3rd parties are popping up all over the place to support DCS, but apart from two, they don't seem to be in hurry to make WWII content for this platform. There's just much more money to be made in modern combat offerings and it applies not only to DCS or flight sims but just PC video games in general.

The only thing which could make more warbird players from other platforms switch to DCS would be a complete flop of upcoming/unannounced 1C project, or cancellation of Combat Pilot project, or flop of next CloD/TF project. First two are very unlikely in my opinion.

[Gunfreak]

37 minutes ago, Art-J said:

I'd hazard a guess it's because modern aircraft and asset modules have always been and will always be THE core of ED business (and of majority of 3rd parties who flooded the last months newsletters with their jets and tuboprops announcements). Big modern module sale figures allow them to add modern ground and naval assets to the coregame free of charge.

DCS WWII playerbase is and will likely remain small in comparison, so we pay extra for being a niche segment. Economy of scale 101, simple as that. And I say it as warbird player for the most part. Even if a bit more attention might be given to WWII content by ED in the near future (as per Wags' statements in recent podcast), I still expect it to remain a side-project of their whole business. As mentioned, 3rd parties are popping up all over the place to support DCS, but apart from two, they don't seem to be in hurry to make WWII content for this platform. There's just much more money to be made in modern combat offerings and it applies not only to DCS or flight sims but just PC video games in general.

The only thing which could make more warbird players from other platforms switch to DCS would be a complete flop of upcoming/unannounced 1C project, or cancellation of Combat Pilot project, or flop of next CloD/TF project. First two are very unlikely in my opinion.

The nr 2 biggest complaints people have with DCS WW2.

1. Price, and the assets pack is a big reason for that.

2. Lack of real ww2 environment. 

ED can easily fix the first one, by adding the asset pack free to any payed ww2 modual/map

 

The second one requires that ED starts to prioritise ww2. 

[Silver_Dragon]

1 hour ago, Gunfreak said:

The nr 2 biggest complaints people have with DCS WW2.

1. Price, and the assets pack is a big reason for that.

2. Lack of real ww2 environment. 

ED can easily fix the first one, by adding the asset pack free to any payed ww2 modual/map

 

The second one requires that ED starts to prioritise ww2. 

29.99$ has none issue here, has a false stament repeat ever and ever... the Assets pack has update and expand from your release.

The "lack of real ww2 enviroment" has only fulling by more content by ED and 3rd parties with more modules and maps.

[Silver_Dragon]

8 hours ago, [16AGR] CptTrips said:

 

There is going to be a separate Pacific WW2 Asset Pack?

Separate from the WWII Asset Pack I already bought? Not just added to?

Is that going to be a free pack?

 

Yes.... what is the problem? as other 3rd parties as make before. That build by M3, and nothing to do with ED assets pack. About get "free" has decission by M3.

[OLD CROW]

3 hours ago, Art-J said:

The only thing which could make more warbird players from other platforms switch to DCS would be a complete flop of upcoming/unannounced 1C project, or cancellation of Combat Pilot project, or flop of next CloD/TF project. First two are very unlikely in my opinion.

The only 2 limitations to enlarge users in this DCS niche are:

A-Initial limitations:

1- You have to own a mid- High spec PC to run DCS in a decent & balanced way between CPU logical processes and mid-high detailed graphics. This point has improved with the MT, but still been heavy for most part of 4-5 years old PC's, but we have to admit that other sim products in the market require less specs to give a similar quality cause clicking cockpits are not a "must" in WW2/piston engines managing terms.

2- The price you have to pay for hopping on in a piston warbird is almost the double than hopping on in a 4th. Gen jet fighter. Today's product prices extract from the official website:

FW-190 A8: 49,99 $

I-16: 39.99 $

Spitfire: 49.99 $

ME 109 K-4 (This model is just as displaced as the russian one): 49,99 $ 

FW-190 D9: 49.99 $

Mosquito: 47.99 $

P-47D: 49.99 $

P-51D: 49.99 $

Normandy 2.0 map: 47.99 $

The Channel map: 49.99 $

WW2 Assets Pack: 29.99 $

Scripted Campaigns: from 9.99 $ to 11.99 $

Aircraft + "historical" map + assets pack = more than 100 bucks????!!!! (*)

4th. gen jet + 2 base game free maps + base game free assets= between 63.99 $ and 79.99 $ 

(*) I perfectly know DCS is a sandbox and one can discuss this easily saying: you can retail this price just downloading the base game with the Caucasus and the Marianas free maps and the TF-51 or just buying one model and flying it in the free maps.... If your intention is "emulating" Kermit's weekend flights then is a great option.... but if you want to go further and "emulate" Chuck Yeager or Gunter Rahl, or you love the Multiplayer option then you have to prevent your credit card from a more than a possible melting process.

B- Once "you're in" limitations:

1- Plane set: It is the most horrible plane set in the WW2 sim market..... by far !!! Talking about "balance" is opening diehards' "Pandora's Box" (here is not the correct thread dudes). Content creators insist in introduce K-4's vs. MK.IX Spitfires or P-51D's over France cause it's the only 109 available in game. 

2- AI's Issues: Due a core game limitation AI's use a "less complex" FM-DM than human users (it's like Neo once He learnt how to manipulate "the physics" in the Matrix... so it can only be translated to most people as: The most "EMERSIVE" thing that push your frustrations to the point of hating their scripters, not only in air against A/C, also on ground with a AAA directly imported from "Palpatin's Exegol fleet", or using 88's against fast, small and single fighters cause they have to erase you from air at "ALL COSTS".

3- "Spotting": LOD's & FOV's.... Human eye has naturaly evoluted and has became a great tool for reacting against any potential moving threat. Due tech limitiations moving "threats" in game could be everything cause there's  no difference between the "threat" and the background surrounding it, diluting its pixel/pixels (depending on the LOD /zoom level your using) and giving it an extra chameleon camo point to frustrate you. All WW2 veteran interviews you can find out they insist in ONE capital concept in WW2 terms: The EYE SIGHT. This problem becomes "no problem" once you're flying a 4th. gen A/C with all its sensors pointing "bad guy's 6" with no human eye sight needed: problem solved then!!!  

So basically after all this long ten years time, if ED's responsibles still wrongly applying the nowadays WW2 era pricing politics and a "few people" that become "the most in this forum" (we can call them superfans) still thinking they're doing right cause other"wise" products quality would decrease then DCS WW2 will be what has being for all this ten years: a niche of the niche of the niche.... ad infinitum,.... but We always have a "poor's solution":  the 15 days trial. 

IMAO ED should start thinking in integrate the assets pack in any/ or both WW2 maps from now on for incoming people and those who have already paid it... well... you can feel so proud of being part of the creating process, like a patreon... don't get me wrong I'm saying this from the side of one who had already paid it, so I'm not complaining at all. I suggest ED can compensate us with a custom T-shirt with the sentence: "we have the WW2 Assets Pack..." (at the front)".... And we "proudly" paid for having it!!!" (at the back): My size is L and I want it in black with the sentence in black too... if it's possible. 

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

6 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

It's going to come with the Corsair as far as I know. 

 

Well that's a step in the right direction.

At least they get it. 

 

 

[Gunfreak]

2 minutes ago, [16AGR] CptTrips said:

 

Well that's a step in the right direction.

At least they get it. 

 

 

Yes. 

What we know is coming with the Corsair is;

1. Working Essex class carrier.

2. Japanese ground units (armor, artillery) unknown if we'll get AAA and infantry.

They are working on AI zero but unknown if it will be released at the same time as the Corsair.

Someone did dig up an American escorts carrier model worked on by Mag3 someplace in the deep down Internet, but seemed to be in very early stages. No info on American or Japanese ships(outside of the American carriers) no info on other Japanese planes like betties, Vals etc.

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

 

But what about WWII being a niche?

What about the development costs?

OMG.

3 hours ago, Silver_Dragon said:

29.99$ has none issue here, has a false stament repeat ever and ever...

 

Ahhh.  Then pulling all the modern objects out of the ME and selling an Modern Ware Asset Pack instead would be no problem then, right?

That wouldn't hurt business at all, right?

 

It is a slap in the face of the customer.  It is the clearest signal you can send to potential customers that WWII is considered a second class citizen of the DCS ecosystem.  That the members of the WWII community have to be nickel-and-dimed in ways the CW and modern war players aren't.

 

I own the stupid thing so I am not arguing for self interest.  I think ED is shooting themselves in the foot.  They are being pennywise but pound foolish.  More importantly they are stifling the possible growth of the WWII DCS community.  

Making WWII fans pay for things the other genre do not telegraphs to them that WWII players are second class citizens in the DCS ecosystem.

M3 gets it.  Maybe they could explain to ED why it would have been bad business to sell customers a 60$ Corsair and then turn around and charge them for a separate asset pack.

"Would you like a steering wheel and tires to go with that Ferrari you just bought, sir?"

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by [16AGR] CptTrips

[DD_Fenrir]

21 minutes ago, [16AGR] CptTrips said:

 

But what about WWII being a niche?

What about the development costs?

OMG.

 

Ahhh.  Then pulling all the modern objects out of the ME and selling an Modern Ware Asset Pack instead would be no problem then, right?

That wouldn't hurt business at all, right?

 

Seriously, just let it go man.

This conversation has been had, repeatedly, over and over and over and over again and every time ED say the exact same thing, that the creation of the WW2 assets takes 1,000s of man hours that the cost of aircraft modules cannot cover.

Why the hell do you think that you bringing out the whip again and heading for the deceased equine will change anything? You so special?

[Gunfreak]

6 minutes ago, DD_Fenrir said:

Seriously, just let it go man.

This conversation has been had, repeatedly, over and over and over and over again and every time ED say the exact same thing, that the creation of the WW2 assets takes 1,000s of man hours that the cost of aircraft modules cannot cover.

Why the hell do you think that you bringing out the whip again and heading for the deceased equine will change anything? You so special?

Because what they have been doing the last 10 years isn't really working.

 

[DD_Fenrir]

7 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

Because what they have been doing the last 10 years isn't really working.

 

Eh?

ED are still apparently solvent and producing content whilst updating their core engine. Seems pretty 'working' to me.

Edited August 31, 2023 by DD_Fenrir

[Gunfreak]

6 minutes ago, DD_Fenrir said:

Eh?

ED are still apparently solvent and producing content whilst updating their core engine. Seem pretty 'working' to me.

We are talking about ww2 here. 

And it's not really working. Very little is happening. Mossie hasn't gotten any real work done in years.

C47 is just a drone with no ability to drop anytime .

AI assets like B24, B25, B26, Me109G and Typhoon planned 6 years ago has not only not come out. But doesn't seem like they have even started work on them.

So yes, people are asking for some real serious work on WW2 before they want to buy more ww2 stuff. 

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by Gunfreak

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

13 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

Because what they have been doing the last 10 years isn't really working.

 

 

It's mind-boggling self-sabotage.

M3 gets it.  It's why they are not going to repeat the same mistake.

I'm starting to lean your direction.  I am now thinking I might can justify buying the Corsair.  M3 is being smart.  I'll have to think more before buying the F6F.  

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by [16AGR] CptTrips

[Silver_Dragon]

1 hour ago, Gunfreak said:

Yes. 

What we know is coming with the Corsair is;

1. Working Essex class carrier.

2. Japanese ground units (armor, artillery) unknown if we'll get AAA and infantry.

They are working on AI zero but unknown if it will be released at the same time as the Corsair.

Someone did dig up an American escorts carrier model worked on by Mag3 someplace in the deep down Internet, but seemed to be in very early stages. No info on American or Japanese ships(outside of the American carriers) no info on other Japanese planes like betties, Vals etc.

Japan AAA units has posted on your develop logs




 25 mm Type 96 gun, 75 mm Type 88 cannons.

None 3rd party has never build Infantry units to DCS... on fact has a old depleted technology comming from LOMAC/FC. 3rd parties has waiting to ED complete the new infantry rigind animations API, has HB waiting ED complete the carrier crew API.

We dont know if M3 has build anithing more by the lack of info. Only 2 carriers.

The Paradrops, was show on 2022 and Beyond video, but today was not release.

@OLD CROW Remember the old WW2 planeset comming from the old RRG Studios KS standalone product (Bf-109K-8, Spitfire MkIX, Fw-190A-8, P-37 and not released Me262), rescue by ED with has intent complete them on the last years, the only ED real projects was the P-51D, Fw-190D-9, Mosquito FB.VI and the on develop F6F Hellcat and future Bob modules. 3rd parties has build Octopus G I-16 and future La7 and 

AI will change with the on progress BFM, and Spoting has form DCS inself, no WW2 only.

Edited August 31, 2023 by Silver_Dragon

[NineLine]

I think this has drifted far enough off the original topic now that we can close it. I know that WWII doesn't move as fast as we would all like and I am sorry for that. Giving away stuff like the Asset pack, which arguably for 14.99 during sales is a giveaway, will not help that. 

 

18 hours ago, [16AGR] CptTrips said:

Did those not have any production costs?  

They do, and that might have to be looked at in the future as well. As we said before, the WWII project was a failed 3rd Party project that we ended up rescuing, we had never intended to do WWII to this degree. We are glad we have it now, but it has extra costs associated with it.