WWI Planes in DCS

[Maberickxx88]

That would be cool to have some really early planes in DCS. B.E.2, Sopwith Camel, Fokker Dr.1 , Albatros, Nieuport and much more. To climb to 10000ft and fight against each other only with MG's. I wonder if People would like to buy and Fly planes from WWI. I like all kind of planes and since People like the Warbirds I think WWI planes would be a cool addition to the DCS hanger.  Is it even possible for the Devs to create WWI planes with a propper FM, since in deep data and specs are hard to find. And the chances to talk with real WWI pilots are very rare. 

What do you guys think about WWI planes in DCS?

Edited December 27, 2022 by Maberickxx88

[Gunfreak]

Like every "new thing" in DCS. I'm sceptical. 

Sure it would be very cool to have well made WW1 planes in DCS, since DCS has better graphics,  sound(so much better sound) and flight model than that "other sim with WW1 planes) 

However I'm at that point when I don't want a plane. I want a simulator.

 

So I don't want 1 or 2 random ww1 planes. I would want an appropriate map, at least half a dozen plane types foe each side. I would want balloons and ground units.

And all those things are very slow to come to DCS. But I would pay 20 bucks for a well made camel and DR1 just to try some WW1 dogfighting in DCS. 

[Tank50us]

honestly, if a 3PD came up with a WW1 aircraft as a first module for DCS, they'd be in pretty good shape as it would not only allow them a comparatively easy module to make, but also good experience in focusing purely on what's critical for the plane to function since there isn't much to any of the WW1 aircraft. The most complex part would be the engines and the instruments.

As for maps... if it were up to me, I'd make one that's appropriate for WW1/2, but also appropriate for the modern day. A "War torn Europe" map would be quite the battlefield to fly over, whether in a Sopwith Camel going 150kts, a P-51D going 350kts, or an F-16 going 650kts.

[1MajorKoenig]

vor 48 Minuten schrieb Gunfreak:

Like every "new thing" in DCS. I'm sceptical. 

Sure it would be very cool to have well made WW1 planes in DCS, since DCS has better graphics,  sound(so much better sound) and flight model than that "other sim with WW1 planes) 

However I'm at that point when I don't want a plane. I want a simulator.

 

So I don't want 1 or 2 random ww1 planes. I would want an appropriate map, at least half a dozen plane types foe each side. I would want balloons and ground units.

And all those things are very slow to come to DCS. But I would pay 20 bucks for a well made camel and DR1 just to try some WW1 dogfighting in DCS. 

While I love that early era of aviation I have to agree.

DCS is a clusterbunch of silos with little connecting pieces. It is already missing density in its most fleshed out scenario around the 80s/90s.

In my opinion the game needs a dynamic campaign the most so one can really bring all these gems into action. 

 

I wouldn’t rule out a WW1 scenario but just a couple of planes wouldn’t cut it — the same way as WW2, Korea and such don’t really come to live.

 

Plus: rise of flight is a relatively decent WW1 game out there 

[Gunfreak]

6 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

While I love that early era of aviation I have to agree.

DCS is a clusterbunch of silos with little connecting pieces. It is already missing density in its most fleshed out scenario around the 80s/90s.

In my opinion the game needs a dynamic campaign the most so one can really bring all these gems into action. 

 

I wouldn’t rule out a WW1 scenario but just a couple of planes wouldn’t cut it — the same way as WW2, Korea and such don’t really come to live.

 

Plus: rise of flight is a relatively decent WW1 game out there 

I'm waiting for VR support for Wings over flanders field. Seems to be THE ww1 flight sim for realism. Apparently best flight models, more or less all the planes. Dynamic campaign spanning most of the war.

Very lacking graphically of course. But I'll definitely try it out when it gets VR. 

[Maberickxx88]

I agree that we need a cool map. Somme or something like this. Ground units are not that important for me, mainly i want Dogfighting in 10000ft+.

Avionics should be easy for the Planes, cause there are none. I don´t know how complex a goog FM would be, but for DCS I would say WWI Planes are much less complex than any other module in DCS.

[bies]

Overall WW1 air combat has great potential, but WW1 module would have purpose only if we would have WW1 map, WW1 asset pack and a few WW1 AI aircrafts before.

Without all of that it would be even more out of context than I-16, with 0 WW1 enviroment. It would make DCS even thinner, spread over even wider timeframe.

Flying a WW1 Albatros over 1990s Caucassus or WW2 Normandy against WW2 aircrafts, strafing WW2 tanks would be just stupid, without any atmosphere, absolutely hopeless and boring after 1-2 flights. It would be basically an aerobatic plane, not a fighter.

 

(Another thing is RoF/FC devs stated there is only so much WW1 aircrafts hard data available, thus it wouldn't allow DCS devs to create more detailed modules than RoF/FC already has - nullifying DCS high fidelity advantage)

Edited December 28, 2022 by bies

[BIGNEWY]

please keep the discussion about DCS and not other simulators. 

rules can be found at the top of the forum 

thank you

[Maberickxx88]

Yeah the lack of data is a problem. ED or third party devs have their own expectations of a good FM and they are properly not ok with a semi good FM.

But there a some Replicas. 1 to. 1 rebuilds with real blueprints.

Maybe thats something we will see in DCS in 5 or 10 years, when there no other Planes left to develope.

For the Jetfighter section the most important Planes are already avaiable. I cant think of much more. After the EF2000 and Mig 23 and some US cold War jets, the Jet section is complete. We want see The F-22, F-35 or modern Russian Modules in DCS anytime soon. 

Still hope for some early WWII Planes and Jets. P-36, P-40, IL-2, MiG-3, Yak-15, P-80, Me-262 and some US and Japanise Naval Planes.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Maberickxx88

[Silver_Dragon]

22 minutes ago, Maberickxx88 said:

Yeah the lack of data is a problem. ED or third party devs have their own expectations of a good FM and they are properly not ok with a semi good FM.

But there a some Replicas. 1 to. 1 rebuilds with real blueprints.

Maybe thats something we will see in DCS in 5 or 10 years, when there no other Planes left to develope.

For the Jetfighter section the most important Planes are already avaiable. I cant think of much more. After the EF2000 and Mig 23 and some US cold War jets, the Jet section is complete. We want see The F-22, F-35 or modern Russian Modules in DCS anytime soon. 

Still hope for some early WWII Planes and Jets. P-36, P-40, IL-2, MiG-3, Yak-15, P-80, Me-262 and some US and Japanise Naval Planes.

 

Jet section never was complete but always have persons with like "X dream modules", and have a great number of Cold War jets on the "To Do" list. Remember ED continue researh about Me-262 (planned by the old KS) and ED and 3rd parties working on pacific WW2 aircrafts. Has only a matter of time with WW1 coming, with some 3rd party build a Arras map or/and build flying circus aircrafts.

[upyr1]

World War I aircraft would be awesome, there is the question of how much data is available. As stated before there are 1:1 replicas so we might be able to get that information. The second question is who should do it? One of the problems with DCS is it covers a wide area with an uneven depth. As I have stated before, there is almost nothing Soviet in the second World War and Korean War. It is important to work on an eco system for the modules. This is at least two opposing fighters, assets and a map. I'm not shooting the idea down I am though saying if we get them I'd rather see a new developer who plans to focus their time on developing an great war eco system so we can dog fight over the trenches with proper ground and naval assets fighting.

[Gunfreak]

38 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

World War I aircraft would be awesome, there is the question of how much data is available. As stated before there are 1:1 replicas so we might be able to get that information. The second question is who should do it? One of the problems with DCS is it covers a wide area with an uneven depth. As I have stated before, there is almost nothing Soviet in the second World War and Korean War. It is important to work on an eco system for the modules. This is at least two opposing fighters, assets and a map. I'm not shooting the idea down I am though saying if we get them I'd rather see a new developer who plans to focus their time on developing an great war eco system so we can dog fight over the trenches with proper ground and naval assets fighting.

You have to make planes based on existing examples,  modern replicas and written sources about the capabilities. 

 

Only way I see DCS WW1 happening. 

Is if a 3rd party does it all, a big enough team makes planes, map and AI assets. They would need to also write code for a completely new plane AI logic so they actually behave like WW1 planes and not WW2 planes or F16s.

[Silver_Dragon]

8 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

You have to make planes based on existing examples,  modern replicas and written sources about the capabilities. 

 

Only way I see DCS WW1 happening. 

Is if a 3rd party does it all, a big enough team makes planes, map and AI assets. They would need to also write code for a completely new plane AI logic so they actually behave like WW1 planes and not WW2 planes or F16s.

None 3rd party can make AI logics, that has work of ED on the core. Gunfreak, I see a continuous crusade vs ED, but remember Nick Grey and fighter collection fly real WW2 aircrafts and the P-51 and other WW2 aircrafts has based on real data, no on Warthunder info...

54 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

World War I aircraft would be awesome, there is the question of how much data is available. As stated before there are 1:1 replicas so we might be able to get that information. The second question is who should do it? One of the problems with DCS is it covers a wide area with an uneven depth. As I have stated before, there is almost nothing Soviet in the second World War and Korean War. It is important to work on an eco system for the modules. This is at least two opposing fighters, assets and a map. I'm not shooting the idea down I am though saying if we get them I'd rather see a new developer who plans to focus their time on developing an great war eco system so we can dog fight over the trenches with proper ground and naval assets fighting.

To build a complete "era" as the WW1, a 3rd party require a very big team with three or four teams (aka RAZBAM), one team centred on build maps on TDK, other team centred on build AI units and some teams on build each module aircrafts, on cooperation with ED to implement some features as trenches technology.... and that can take years to build previous a release. Remember WW2 KS... and your ambitions.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Silver_Dragon

[Gunfreak]

7 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

None 3rd party can make AI logics, that has work of ED on the core. Gunfreak, I see a continuous crusade vs ED, but remember Nick Grey and fighter collection fly real WW2 aircrafts and the P-51 and other WW2 aircrafts has based on real data, no on Warthunder info...

 

You keep quoting me and writing words that has no bearing on what I write. I didn't mention ED once. So I have on idea what you are on about. Nor does ww2 warbirds have any bearing on ww1 planes.

[NineLine]

We are getting a new AI FM (GFM) any aircraft using this should fly more like the aircraft that they are based on. This should address many issues seen with AI flight models in DCS (by the way hardly a DCS only problem, but I digress) 

[Gunfreak]

1 minute ago, NineLine said:

We are getting a new AI FM (GFM) any aircraft using this should fly more like the aircraft that they are based on. This should address many issues seen with AI flight models in DCS (by the way hardly a DCS only problem, but I digress) 

One of the main core updates I look forward, ever since it was announced. The early vidoes looked very good. And you're totally right about the last ting. Could go on about it for hours,  but we can't talk about other sims. But one sim that does do ww1 (not name dropping) has no so broken AI that not only does the AI generally fly the ww1 planes wrong. They now don't even attack, like almost nevern players can go 1 v 7 and shoot them all down and not get a single hole in their plane.

So yeah AI is tricky,  and DCS is far from the worst. The Jet AI is getting quite decent now.

[F-2]

Peter Bowers built a number of replica WWI aircraft in the 60s and 70s. He’s no longer living but perhaps someone could contact his family to see if they saved any of his documentation?

Quote

Mr. Peter Bowers, an aeronautical engineer with Boeing in Seattle, is a principal source of detailed information on vintage aircraft in the United States, and has provided much of the data for a number of replicas of 1914-18 War aircraft now under construction or flying. He is currently engaged on a redesign of the Fokker D.VIII monoplane of 1918 in association with Herr Rheinhold Platz, the original designer, with a view to starting a replica building program.

A full-scale Fokker Triplane replica of this period has been under construction by Mr. Bowers for nearly five years. At least six others are known to be under construction from plans that he has provided.

Another aircraft built by Mr. Bowers is a full-scale replica of the Wright Model EX of 1911, the first aeroplane to cross the American continent. This machine was tested as a towed sailplane in the Autumn of 1961 and is to be powered by a converted "B" Ford automobile engine from a 1938 Funk monoplane.

In addition to this work on replicas, Mr. Bowers has designed and built a single-seat light aircraft known as the Fly Baby...

 

Edited December 28, 2022 by F-2

[upyr1]

20 hours ago, Silver_Dragon said:

To build a complete "era" as the WW1, a 3rd party require a very big team with three or four teams (aka RAZBAM), one team centred on build maps on TDK, other team centred on build AI units and some teams on build each module aircrafts, on cooperation with ED to implement some features as trenches technology.... and that can take years to build previous a release. Remember WW2 KS... and your ambitions.

I understand that, which is why World War I isn't high on my list but I think it would be nice to have. Some of the changes you have brought up- mainly trenches I have requested already. The next question I have is how hard would it be to convert WWII infantry into World War I infantry?

The Germans used the G98 in the first World War and the K98 in the second- so that would need to be lengthened. The helmet and uniform would need to be changed

The Commonwealth used the SMLE in both wars as well as the same helmet the uniform would need to be changed. They would have to add period correct tanks. It would be awesome if someone took up the challenge I know the Great War vehicle I'd want to see first would be the FT-17 as they were the only combat vehicles which I know were used in both World Wars and I believe they were used in the Spanish civil war so they would go along nicely with the I-16

[Silver_Dragon]

17 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

I understand that, which is why World War I isn't high on my list but I think it would be nice to have. Some of the changes you have brought up- mainly trenches I have requested already. The next question I have is how hard would it be to convert WWII infantry into World War I infantry?

The Germans used the G98 in the first World War and the K98 in the second- so that would need to be lengthened. The helmet and uniform would need to be changed

The Commonwealth used the SMLE in both wars as well as the same helmet the uniform would need to be changed. They would have to add period correct tanks. It would be awesome if someone took up the challenge I know the Great War vehicle I'd want to see first would be the FT-17 as they were the only combat vehicles which I know were used in both World Wars and I believe they were used in the Spanish civil war so they would go along nicely with the I-16

I think you are confused... if a 3rd party wants to make a new age or material for a module with access to the SDK, they are going to have to make all the equipment from scratch. ED is not going to supply its material and sources, just to have a WWII Wehrmacht soldier modified to resemble an Imperial German WWI soldier, but when both the uniform, equipment and weaponry It was different. The same situation will happen with the English, French and USA WWI uniform, equipment, weapons, planes and vehicles.

Only a little info about Imperial Uniforms:
https://www.kaisersbunker.com/index2.htm

It will require the 3rd party to demonstrate its capabilities in all areas, especially when it seems that the new infantry models are just around the corner.

 

[upyr1]

1 hour ago, Silver_Dragon said:

I think you are confused... if a 3rd party wants to make a new age or material for a module with access to the SDK, they are going to have to make all the equipment from scratch. ED is not going to supply its material and sources, just to have a WWII Wehrmacht soldier modified to resemble an Imperial German WWI soldier, but when both the uniform, equipment and weaponry It was different. The same situation will happen with the English, French and USA WWI uniform, equipment, weapons, planes and vehicles.

I'm not sure how ED and the other developers work together, that's up to them. All that I am saying is that the SMLE was used in both World Wars and the Kar98 is a G98 that was cut down by 7 inches/18 CM, and that the brodie helmet was used in both World Wars though the m1916 stalhelm vs m1935 stall helm and uniforms differed. Here the two helmets are side by side the guy with the mustache is in the m1916 helmet. As stated before I don't know nor do I really care how ED and the other developers work together I'm just stating what I think the bare minimum you would need to do. I could be wrong again I just know it will take a lot of work

Edited December 29, 2022 by upyr1

[NineLine]

If a 3rd Party wanted to do WWI aircraft and assets they would need to create all that on their own. 

If it made sense to use our German solider there, the ME is quite capable of using most anything anywhere. I have flown the A-10C over 1944 Normandy. 

[Evoman]

I would also find it entertaining to dog fight WWI aircraft.

Not too many people know that Peter Jackson the same director of the Lord of the Rings movies is an avid WWI aircraft connoisseur that has the largest private collection of replicas from the era he has reproduced all in house by his team. He is like the Jay Leno of WWI aircraft. Adam savage even got to out fit some of those aircraft with gear to have a laser tag dog fight with them. Peter Jacksons collections would be like a one stop shop to develop most of the WWI aircraft.

 

Edited December 30, 2022 by Evoman

[upyr1]

On 12/29/2022 at 6:01 PM, Evoman said:

I would also find it entertaining to dog fight WWI aircraft.

Not too many people know that Peter Jackson the same director of the Lord of the Rings movies is an avid WWI aircraft connoisseur that has the largest private collection of replicas from the era he has reproduced all in house by his team. He is like the Jay Leno of WWI aircraft. Adam savage even got to out fit some of those aircraft with gear to have a laser tag dog fight with them. Peter Jacksons collections would be like a one stop shop to develop most of the WWI aircraft.

 

 

It would be awesome if we could get his help to get this done