Pre-order, 17th of February’23

[Beirut]

4 hours ago, cfrag said:

 

Now, if RB don't see it that way, that's their decision. We'll see if they can afford to also forego Early Access sales on Steam - which after all have the exact same conditions as pre-order sales. If not (and I doubt they can/will), RB unfortunately lost money and goodwill on this - somewhat uncommon - decision. Here's still holding both thumbs for RB and the F-15E to be a great success.

 

 

 

I'm sure the plane will be excellent and sell a ton. Unfortunately that guaranteed success might well have been what led to the lack of courtesy on their part. Has Razbam posted even once here to speak to the Steam part of their customer base? One post? One word?

 

That silence tells the whole story. 

 

I think it's fair to differentiate between developers that make good planes, and developers that make good planes and respect the customers.

 

 

[AhSoul]

You buy the module through ED, ED have explained why Razbam don't want to offer 30% on Steam (they'll make too little after Steam's cut), but have confirmed the 20% discount will be on Steam. I'm not sure what else you want/need them to say? The reasoning has been explained, and it makes sense. You might not agree with that reasoning, but I'm not sure that's on Razbam.

BTW I can understand being a bit miffed that you can't get the same discount, but it is what it is. You always have the choice to move to standalone if getting that extra 10% means that much.

Edited February 21, 2023 by AhSoul

[ARM505]

Random question: can Steam users migrate their existing modules etc. to the ED launcher/installation method?

I've always used the ED launcher, and recommended its use to those who've asked me, exactly because of specials, pricing, access to latest patches/releases etc. and of course not having to divert money to a 3rd party other than ED. The ED launcher is quick, convenient, independant, and flexible. I don't know why people use Steam for this product, and I say this as somebody with 242 games in my Steam library, and having used it since the launch of Half Life 2.

 

tl;dr - if there isn't a path for people to migrate from Steam to the basic ED install, their should be, and people should use it.

[AdrianL]

3 minutes ago, ARM505 said:

can Steam users migrate their existing modules etc. to the ED launcher/installation method

Yes. See https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/support/faq/steam/#3303126

I did it following those instructions. People just have to be aware that it is 1 way i.e. you transferring licenses from steam to ED store. Licenses purchased on the ED store do not transfer to steam

[cfrag]

Just now, ARM505 said:

Random question: can Steam users migrate their existing modules etc. to the ED launcher/installation method?

Yes. The transition is one-way though.

Just now, ARM505 said:

I don't know why people use Steam for this product

For some of the twelve or so points enumerated in a post above, and maybe even some others not listed. Each to their own. I hated having multiple launchers (EA, Origin, Rockstar, GOG, Ubisoft, ...), and now only have one.

 

[ARM505]

For a niche product like simulators, I'm more than prepared to run one more launcher. As you say though, each to their own. However, I fully understand that in the case of this niche product, payment to a 3rd party, non-contributing (let's be real here) piece of software may produce adverse financial results to those who choose that option. You are paying for your (perceived) convenience. Again, just IMHO.

[cfrag]

2 minutes ago, ARM505 said:

However, I fully understand that in the case of this niche product, payment to a 3rd party, non-contributing (let's be real here) piece of software may produce adverse financial results to those who choose that option.

Perhaps - except that Steam is anything BUT non-contributing. It makes DCS visible to a much greater audience and provides a trusted clearing service for it's own (Steam's) customers - it therefore vouches for ED. So the opposite is true: the smaller the vendor, the greater they can profit from cooperating with a large (gargantuan in Steam's case) distributor. Without Steam, I posit that DCS would have far less modules, as the sales that come in from Steam, even after deducting the 30% tariff, dwarf that of ED's own store. Those (Steam's) are sales that ED would very likely not have made because of their size and lack of reputation; they would have been forced to spend a lot more money on visibility - making their expensive niche products even more expensive. So I posit that not having Steam would have adverse affects on all us DCS customers. 

[ARM505]

On 2/19/2023 at 1:49 PM, VpR81 said:

1. Download rate.

2. Customer protection.

3. Payment methods.

4. DRM via Steam servers.

5. Comfort. Switching language or between OB / stable is just a mouse click. No need for a reinstall or fiddle around with any files like back in the 90s.  Same for moving the DCS install to another drive. Game starts as if nothing was changed, also no need to fiddle around with any files.

6. Refund is just a mouse click without having to deal with the dev studio.

7. A working friends list.

8. Games guaranteed to work even after the developer is bancrupt because of 4. 

9. Most people have Steam anyways . No need for another annoying launcher or transmitting payment informations to another platform. Some ppl are sensible with their payment infos.

10. Modules are cheaper in general. Just a few €uros, but for some ppl this may make a difference as not everyone is living in the rich west like we do.

11. DCS embedded in the same ecosystem like the rest of the games.

12. I can buy modules on Steam and transmit them to standalone anytime. Vice versa is impossible.

I don´t think it is that hard to accept, that some ppl are just not willing to switch from steam to standalone because of one (or several) of these advantages. That broken "switch to standalone" record sometimes sounds like a sect trying to convert people, but not like a reasonable arguement. At least not to me.

Oh, and while I'm at it (and I don't intend this to be a debate between the two, but I will chip in my personal experience, bearing in mind that I have 200+ games in Steam, but have used the ED launcher since it's birth)

 

1) Download rate via Steam is excellent, but unless an ED module has literally just been released within the hour, the P2P method of the ED launcher is also excellent.

2) Ok. Steam offers the refund within two hours (and no doubt other plusses), but since I've never, ever used any of this, I'm not sure how much of an advantage this is - with ED modules, I always know exactly what I'm buying, so it's hardly like I'll return them anyway.

3) Steam - two clicks. ED - enter CC details and pay. 20 seconds vs 60 seconds. Brutal.

4) DRM via Steam. DRM via ED. Offline modes available via both. I'm not sure what the practical difference is for you, the user.

5) Since this is a personal opinion, and I have no need to switch languages, this is irrelevant to me.

6) See point 2 - I've never refunded, either with Steam or attempted to with ED.

7) I fly on specific servers, not with specific people. The value of this point will vary wildy from person to person, for me it's value is zero.

8 ) Valid. If ED dies, I'm not sure the Steam version will work, but I'll accept that. If anybody bought the Steam version of the Hawk, let me know if it still works please.

9) Yes, most have Steam, as do I. Even so, the ED launcher is so unobtrusive that calling it 'annoying' is stretching my imagination to breaking point, but fine - different people have different tolerance for these things.

10) The discounts from miles and specials via ED have more than satisfied my need for 'cheap', and if ED and it's 3rd part devs get more, I'm fine with that. I'm struggling to believe that modules are cheaper on Steam (despite their cut) in general, but that's my problem because I lack the data.

11) Again, click on 'run DCS', game updates if updates are needed, or I run the deliberate update. Despite Steams ease of use, I have never, ever, been frustrated at DCS's launcher.

12) Irrelevant in the case of only using the ED launcher.

 

 

tl;dr - my personal opinion. Others may find themselves in the same situation. It's not a 'cult', it's just logical. And again, if Steam is taking a cut, then it's less for ED and associated developers, so it is ENTIRELY logical if they decide that they cannot accept that cut, and not offer discounts on that platform. 100% logic.

[ARM505]

5 minutes ago, cfrag said:

Perhaps - except that Steam is anything BUT non-contributing. It makes DCS visible to a much greater audience and provides a trusted clearing service for it's own (Steam's) customers - it therefore vouches for ED. So the opposite is true: the smaller the vendor, the greater they can profit from cooperating with a large (gargantuan in Steam's case) distributor. Without Steam, I posit that DCS would have far less modules, as the sales that come in from Steam, even after deducting the 30% tariff, dwarf that of ED's own store. Those (Steam's) are sales that ED would very likely not have made because of their size and lack of reputation; they would have been forced to spend a lot more money on visibility - making their expensive niche products even more expensive. So I posit that not having Steam would have adverse affects on all us DCS customers. 

Valid points.

But something to note: 30% is a lot. While DCS may certainly benefit from the relationship with Valve, a 3rd party like Razbam may decide that they don't. As is the case here so far. DCS (the core) is already benefitting, they may decide that the rule of diminishing returns has been reached, and ride it as they can with what they think will be a popular product in any case. My perception is also biased as I used ED's launcher from the beginning, and was running sims since before the Flanker days, and have followed them since they existed - ie. not reliant on Steam, despite also liking Steams ease of use (put another way - I like sims, and I would have found ED, regardless of platform).

[cfrag]

Just now, ARM505 said:

But something to note: 30% is a lot.

You and I may agree that it surely seems like a lot. And like anything in business, it's not really a question of what constitutes "a lot", it's all about financial viability. If you run the numbers and your business case tells you that it's sustainable, that you can make more money that way, you do it. Looking at other similar stores (Apple, Google, MS for XBox) I see that 30% is industry standard. So yes, it seems a lot. But since ED obviously has run the numbers and concluded that it's beneficial to them, I don't mind that much.

[ARM505]

Me, I'll keep giving more of my money to ED, and less to Valve. But I acknowledge the business case of the mass market access.

[pii]

On 2/21/2023 at 10:12 AM, cfrag said:

business case tells you that it's sustainable, that you can make more money that way, you do it.

And then you look again, at a later date, and the numbers don't add up any longer. What to do?.......Obviously, you stop doing it . 

[YoYo]

I'm looking forward to this module but personally I'm still don't know why we need this kind of pre-order - without any EA date.

If I make a purchase on Kickstarter, I have a date, so ok, I freeze the money for a specific purpose, but I know until when. The discount is nice, but I will pre-order as soon as the date is announced. Now I don't really see the point in freezing money. This is weird for me. 

[Moxica]

I'm fairly new to DCS, and started out when I saw that they were going to release the Ah 64. 
This business model is what we in Norway refer to as "selling the hide before the bear is shot"
The price of a "pre-release" that is going to let me download a WIP seem a little steep, considering the the lesson learned from AH 64 that is still WIP.
I'm really not comfortable with the rhetorics used, as they remind me too much of emails as discussed on Dr Phil involving Nigerian princes.
That said, as it seem to me they are operating on economical margins, I'm hitting the "Purchase" button and give them a "godspeed" as I've done on a few inferior modules with intentions of pure support.
Because all in all; DCS world is my absolute favourite product.
(Well I'm leaving out a couple of my guitars in this equation)

Edited February 22, 2023 by Moxica

[Beirut]

5 hours ago, YoYo said:

I'm looking forward to this module but personally I'm still don't know why we need this kind of pre-order - without any EA date.

 

 

We don't need it. They just want some cash now. 

[AhSoul]

11 minutes ago, Beirut said:

 

We don't need it. They just want some cash now. 

Which is up to them to ask for, and up to us to vote with our wallets as to whether we think it's a valid ask or not.

Those who are happy to give it get a slightly lower price as a result. Those that aren't happy can choose to wait. No-one has a gun to anyone's head here 

[Beirut]

1 hour ago, AhSoul said:

Which is up to them to ask for, and up to us to vote with our wallets as to whether we think it's a valid ask or not.

Those who are happy to give it get a slightly lower price as a result. Those that aren't happy can choose to wait. No-one has a gun to anyone's head here 

 

I have no problem at all with the pre-orders. I'm happy to help finance a project I'm bound to enjoy.

 

I would like a bit more clarity/communication in some cases from the devs, but on the whole it's fine. I think I've pre-ordered... 5 times? Not sure.

[AhSoul]

32 minutes ago, Beirut said:

 

I have no problem at all with the pre-orders. I'm happy to help finance a project I'm bound to enjoy.

 

I would like a bit more clarity/communication in some cases from the devs, but on the whole it's fine. I think I've pre-ordered... 5 times? Not sure.

All good - wasn't aimed specifically at you sorry 

[Beirut]

34 minutes ago, AhSoul said:

All good - wasn't aimed specifically at you sorry 

 

Not at all. I enjoyed your post. 

 

 

.

Edited February 22, 2023 by Beirut

[bfr]

19 hours ago, YoYo said:

I'm looking forward to this module but personally I'm still don't know why we need this kind of pre-order - without any EA date.

If I make a purchase on Kickstarter, I have a date, so ok, I freeze the money for a specific purpose, but I know until when. The discount is nice, but I will pre-order as soon as the date is announced. Now I don't really see the point in freezing money. This is weird for me. 

Sometimes I preorder early, sometimes I leave it very late (like the F-14).  Generally which depends on personal cashflow and how certain a purchase it is (e.g. the AI back-seater for the Tomcat put me off that until i knew more).  Like you say, every module has usually come with at least a couple of days notice of actual rollout. Although that obviously requires you to check forums etc quite regularly to keep on top of things.

[Nahen]

15 hours ago, Moxica said:

I'm fairly new to DCS, and started out when I saw that they were going to release the Ah 64. 
This business model is what we in Norway refer to as "selling the hide before the bear is shot"
The price of a "pre-release" that is going to let me download a WIP seem a little steep, considering the the lesson learned from AH 64 that is still WIP.
I'm really not comfortable with the rhetorics used, as they remind me too much of emails as discussed on Dr Phil involving Nigerian princes.
That said, as it seem to me they are operating on economical margins, I'm hitting the "Purchase" button and give them a "godspeed" as I've done on a few inferior modules with intentions of pure support.
Because all in all; DCS world is my absolute favourite product.
(Well I'm leaving out a couple of my guitars in this equation)

 

Try to count the modules in DCS that are not WIP / Early Access It will turn out that there are almost none

[Tom Kazansky]

11 minutes ago, Nahen said:

Try to count the modules in DCS that are not WIP / Early Access It will turn out that there are almost none

WIP? fair enough.

but concerning EA/release (from the EA shop site):

pre purchase 1

EA 13 + 1 (open beta)

Release 36

 

[Rex]

On 2/20/2023 at 11:19 PM, cfrag said:

There's at least one more reason that made me choose Steam over standalone:

• Convenience: a central, self-updating trusted app that manages all my games ("One app to rule them all!". Errrrm). I removed Origin, Rockstar, EA, Ubisoft, GOG and all the other 'standalone' apps from my drive that mucked up my folders, start-up time and fragmented my library view. Now I don't have to remember who makes/sells/licenses what. I just have one big library. And only steam has my credit card number.

 

 

 

I'm not knocking your decision whatsoever.  To each their own.  I don't use Steam for DCS (I personally don't want ED to take the 30% haircut), but I do use it for some games (I could give a frig less if EA takes a 30% haircut, or a 90% haircut for that matter).

That said, I often worry about having so many games under one tent.  If Steam's servers go down, or they go out of business, there's going to be a whole bunch of things that I can't play.

A few weeks ago I couldn't launch anything until I updated Steam, and the update server wasn't in good shape (at least from my network), leaving me without my content for maybe an hour ... admittedly not long ... but enough to realize "oh crap, I have so much tied up in that thing that if Steam has a bad hair day, I'm out quite a bit of my content".

I get the convenience, but centralization is kind of a double-edged sword. One company could take 20, 30, 50, 100 of your titles (and thousands of your entertainment dollars) with them if they go down.

I mean, if you worry about such things.

 

[cfrag]

21 minutes ago, Rex said:

I mean, if you worry about such things.

I sometimes do, and I think it is a valid concern. What I do to mitigate is what I flatteringly refer to as 'real-time risk management': risk is the product of probability of an adverse event happening, and the impact of that event. Steam is indeed a single point of failure. Should they go down, I'd have to write off a lot of games (some 500). Then again, of those 500 games (as Steam has told me in their personalized "2022 review") I only played 6 (!) longer than 15 minutes last year. Meaning: the impact of steam going down would be manageable. Plus, from a DCS player perspective, I judge the risk of Steam going under smaller than ED's. Pre-supposing that I still can play a DCS module I purchased via Steam after ED goes down, that particular risk (because DCS is the far-away number 1 game I played in 2022), I could argue that via Steam I mitigated ED's vendor risk. 

So, yes, standardizing all your software under one umbrella carries a risk; a risk that you should be clear-eyed about. Just like actively accepting other single-point of failure risks in your life: having all your money at one bank, living in a single house, or being attached to only a single partner (if she finds out I wrote that, I'm dead ). Now, choosing a single point of failure for your entertainment is not as momentous as others in your life; the concern is valid, and I chose to do so because I personally deem losing this bet less likely and momentous than what I gain in convenience of doing so. It is a deeply personal decision, and I understand anyone who feels differently.   

Edited February 24, 2023 by cfrag

[AhSoul]

Not sure I understand your point. If ED's servers are down, you can still start the game and play offline surely? And if MP is your thing, it doesn't matter which version you're on as you log into ED to play MP, so being on Steam hasn't helped you?

Or am I wrong about the above?