Preorder but no miles?

Nahen · February 23, 2023

4 hours ago, Gorn_GER said:

I think what you wanted to say is not "I couldn't care less about additional goodies like miles" but "I couldn't care less about money to spend because I am moneyboy and I have the MONEY. Now go aside you poor monkeys"

Yes i did preorder the F-15E myself because I want it and I do not have to care about money to spend for DCS. But nevertheless I can understand people having a problem with the F-15E-miles loss.

When you have low income, it is hard to play aside with people who can efford the newest Modules and having the best PC with newest VR Ready eqiuipment and expencive HOTAS.

So if you have the money and the best DCS eqiupment, STFU in discussions that have to do with money problems of other people.

This is the same silly statement, like War thunder player saying "it is okay that the F-5C Paket cost 59,99€ while the P-51D-20 is just 29,99€ because one is just Tier IV while the other is a more modern jet at Tier VI. There has to be a difference in price because reasons".

Again, no one is forcing you to buy DCS. If you don't have the money for the module, don't buy it. It doesn't matter how much you earn, if it's too expensive, change your hobby instead of whining.

sparrow88 · February 24, 2023

13 hours ago, Nahen said:

It's called "free market"

And this is called "Forum" so people can give their opinions about the game.

I had no idea that devs can opt out from miles programme. If thats the case then I guess the only reason to buy modules in DCS Shop rather than Steam is gone since you never know if other studios will also decide to opt out from it.

Edited February 24, 2023 by sparrow88

Nahen · February 24, 2023

3 minutes ago, sparrow88 said:

And this is called "Forum" so people can give their opinions about the game.

I had no idea that devs can opt out from miles programme. If thats the case then I guess the only reason to buy modules in DCS Shop rather than Steam is gone since you never know if other studios will also decide to opt out from it.

Writing - "it is a pity that there is no mileage program in this case" - is than expressing an opinion about the fact.
And it's another thing to accuse creators/developers of cheating, stealing, having bad intentions, and worst of all - that they want to earn by selling their work on their own terms.

sparrow88 · February 24, 2023

7 minutes ago, Nahen said:

And it's another thing to accuse creators/developers of cheating, stealing, having bad intentions, and worst of all - that they want to earn by selling their work on their own terms.

Please show me who says anything about cheating or stealing? Running Ctrl+F on this thread shows that you are the only one to use these words in here

Edited February 24, 2023 by sparrow88

AdrianL · February 24, 2023

19 minutes ago, sparrow88 said:

I had no idea that devs can opt out from miles programme

And you only have yourself to blame for this. It is very clear in the terms and conditions, from the start of the programme

21 minutes ago, sparrow88 said:

reason to buy modules in DCS Shop rather than Steam is gone

You not planning on buying ED modules ever again? And there are still the trials.

Nahen · February 24, 2023

15 minutes ago, sparrow88 said:

Please show me who says anything about cheating or stealing? Running Ctrl+F on this thread shows that you are the only one to use these words in here

This is not the only place where people vent their grievances about this fact. Maybe read the whole topic about the pre-sale, which after its launch went to "oh man, I can't use the mile" ... People here and there accuse others that they can afford or can't afford the purchase, or throw mud on ED or RaZBAM because they didn't turn on the program mile F-15E.
Do I have to explain for them? I can repeat what I've already said - if someone can't afford it, let them change their hobbies or adapt their needs to their abilities. And he's not looking for someone to blame for not being able to spend his miles to save money - if you don't buy an F-15E, you probably won't die. You don't need it to live. You want to buy it, buy it. I don't understand where is the room for any further discussion here?
You can discuss the module, its quality and whether it's cool or not. But not about the financial policy of ED and RAZBAM - this is just their buissnes. You or I accept or don't - buying or unlisted module. I'm always amused by people who try to straighten out someone's wallet, the way they earn or spend their own money. Maybe you can advise ED how they should run the whole "company"?

erniedaoage · February 24, 2023

14 minutes ago, Nahen said:

This is not the only place where people vent their grievances about this fact. Maybe read the whole topic about the pre-sale, which after its launch went to "oh man, I can't use the mile" ... People here and there accuse others that they can afford or can't afford the purchase, or throw mud on ED or RaZBAM because they didn't turn on the program mile F-15E.
Do I have to explain for them? I can repeat what I've already said - if someone can't afford it, let them change their hobbies or adapt their needs to their abilities. And he's not looking for someone to blame for not being able to spend his miles to save money - if you don't buy an F-15E, you probably won't die. You don't need it to live. You want to buy it, buy it. I don't understand where is the room for any further discussion here?
You can discuss the module, its quality and whether it's cool or not. But not about the financial policy of ED and RAZBAM - this is just their buissnes. You or I accept or don't - buying or unlisted module. I'm always amused by people who try to straighten out someone's wallet, the way they earn or spend their own money. Maybe you can advise ED how they should run the whole "company"?

100% right, i mean honestly everyone tries to save money where its possible and you already get a really good discount with it. And people can always wait for a sale if their pockets are tight.

And if people sacrifce their daily needs, like food, water and clothes, for luxuries like DCS, those people have a serious problem and should seek help, instead of blaming others.

Edited February 24, 2023 by erniedaoage

Jojothebox · February 24, 2023

56 minutes ago, sparrow88 said:

And this is called "Forum" so people can give their opinions about the game.

I had no idea that devs can opt out from miles programme. If thats the case then I guess the only reason to buy modules in DCS Shop rather than Steam is gone since you never know if other studios will also decide to opt out from it.

it’s annoying but no one has denied or hidden that razbam opted out. if you read the miles agreement it’s in there like three time. i sympathize with you because you’re right, it is an advantage. and personally it’s one of many reasons i’m not going to get the F-15.

Jojothebox · February 24, 2023

12 hours ago, Nahen said:

Again, no one is forcing you to buy DCS. If you don't have the money for the module, don't buy it. It doesn't matter how much you earn, if it's too expensive, change your hobby instead of whining.

i think it’s less a money thing than a customer experience type of thing. you’re right, companies don’t have to opt into the miles program, but the way i understand it there is no revenue loss too the third-party, only to ED and the program itself is a thank you to those of us who fly in dcs. secondly @Gorn_GER isn’t whining. they clearly stated that this wasn’t an issue for them. but they bring up a very valid point. if you have a loyal customer who happens to be tight on cash or has to worry about where their spends go then that customer is more than within their rights to ask about that program. i haven’t seen anyone in this thread complain about it, just asking questions and clarifying confusions. but it’s not the best look from a company that (again to my knowledge) wouldn’t be loosing revenue and has projects being funded by governments (working with the ecuadorian govt to develop the A-29) to look at the customer and say “we messed up the release of this project more than five times and complained when the work we presented to ED did not meet their standards so we had to delay even longer. so now you, the consumer aren’t getting what was promised for release and you don’t get a reward for still being a loyal customer”

Jojothebox · February 24, 2023

On 2/18/2023 at 8:45 PM, Funkysak said:

Miles or not the $56 price tag seems more than fair to me. It is cheaper than the Mirage and is a model of a much newer air frame.

so the airframe you’re getting from the F-15E is not at all complete, not what was promised, and has been delayed more times than i can count. compare that to the mirage F1. you get two variants with at least four planned and clear expectations and communication from the dev team with the added bonus of miles. don’t get me wrong i can’t and refuse to tell you how to spend your money, but the value you see isn’t really there especially when you realize there’s nothing this plane can do in game that can’t be done with something else.

sparrow88 · February 24, 2023

1 hour ago, AdrianL said:

You not planning on buying ED modules ever again? And there are still the trials.

I am saying that Steam usually is slightly cheaper for me. Previously thanks to miles the prices were almost the same but now that I realised I might not be able to spend miles on what I want I will buy on steam and transfer.

Nahen · February 24, 2023

55 minutes ago, Jojothebox said:

.......

I will write it differently - ED did DCS. You installed it and you play it. More or less successful modules come out from time to time. Some are improved for years, others announced for years.
You decide whether to buy them, when and for how not ED, Razbam or others. They only put the goods on the shelf in the state in which it is at the time of selling. You decide whether you want him or not. Certainly none of us has the right to negate the sales policy, loyalty or related to the issue of subsequent elements of this product. Unless you are a co -creator and one of the parties has not fulfilled the contract. If you are a user/customer, you can always change the "store" and buy something else.
When I go shopping, I do not point out in the store "A" and that in store "B", they added a half kilo of meat to the bought loaf of bread - I return to store B. I do not organize a protest before the store, rally/congregation because the store decided that some articles will not be covered Promotion - I'm going to another store. And if another store does not have what I need/I want, I either buy and not whine or give up shopping.

And as for the question that any module does not give you wants, and you can do the same in other module ... Maybe in DCS there should only be F-16 in total everything can be done with it ... Why other modules? You assess what maybe and what the F-15E which you have not seen on the eyes, it is not known when it will come out. From the announcement, you conclude, at most, the likelihood of what he will have and what he will not. It may be, conclude that he will be released for the Christmas 100% complete... problems and divagations and subsequent reasons to complain...

Jojothebox · February 24, 2023

1 hour ago, Nahen said:

I will write it differently - ED did DCS. You installed it and you play it. More or less successful modules come out from time to time. Some are improved for years, others announced for years.
You decide whether to buy them, when and for how not ED, Razbam or others. They only put the goods on the shelf in the state in which it is at the time of selling. You decide whether you want him or not. Certainly none of us has the right to negate the sales policy, loyalty or related to the issue of subsequent elements of this product. Unless you are a co -creator and one of the parties has not fulfilled the contract. If you are a user/customer, you can always change the "store" and buy something else.
When I go shopping, I do not point out in the store "A" and that in store "B", they added a half kilo of meat to the bought loaf of bread - I return to store B. I do not organize a protest before the store, rally/congregation because the store decided that some articles will not be covered Promotion - I'm going to another store. And if another store does not have what I need/I want, I either buy and not whine or give up shopping.

And as for the question that any module does not give you wants, and you can do the same in other module ... Maybe in DCS there should only be F-16 in total everything can be done with it ... Why other modules? You assess what maybe and what the F-15E which you have not seen on the eyes, it is not known when it will come out. From the announcement, you conclude, at most, the likelihood of what he will have and what he will not. It may be, conclude that he will be released for the Christmas 100% complete... problems and divagations and subsequent reasons to complain...

i know what the 15 will have because i read what razbam put out. i know other planes can do what the 15 can do in its current state because i talk to people who have had access to it. i’m not buying it because razbam, mainly their CEO, treated their customers like excrement and expected us to take their half complete, mostly broken product at average preorder price. i know they’re doing the CTU upgrades because their product wasn’t ready for release and they need time that they don’t have. what you mentioned with store a and store b is exactly what i’m doing, i don’t care if people buy it but i’m going to give my thoughts to make sure no one has buyer’s remorse. and yeah sure we could do just 16. but then you loose the unique ability of all of the other planes. the 18 does anti ship the 16 has speed and ranged firepower the 10 has time on station and load out supply. the 15E? it’s a faster buggier 14B without jester. sure the ED modules are released unfinished but that is the expectation the 15s expectation has been shifted so many times you can’t trust what comes out of razbams public affairs department. so if you wanna go and fly out your budget tomcat absolutely be my guest, but when you cant pick out targets with your lantern tgp at angles 15+ orbiting the target area like the plane was intended to operate i dont want to hear a peep of complaint out of your "f-15's used fox twos to kill 29's in Yugoslavia" headass

Edited February 24, 2023 by Jojothebox

Nahen · February 24, 2023

What RAZBAM will release will be known the day you install the module. Announcements from a year ago about what is to appear on the release date of the module with announcements from the last month are not 100% consistent. So what will happen in the next X months who knows? Sure you know...
Anyway, it's fun to evaluate something that doesn't exist and compare it to something that is Or maybe telling me what other modules are that will do the same or more, remind me how much time after the release of F/A-18C got ATFLIRA? Or how long after release did he get the ability to drop laser-guided bombs? Not to mention a whole lot of other stuff...
So keep telling yourself how other modules will do better what the F-15E will do. So much for the quality of the modules. And it all boils down to a simple want buy, don't want don't buy. And what, how, for how much and on what terms the seller decides - that's about it.

Gorn_GER · February 25, 2023

vor 12 Stunden schrieb Nahen:

I will write it differently - ED did DCS. You installed it and you play it. More or less successful modules come out from time to time. Some are improved for years, others announced for years.
You decide whether to buy them, when and for how not ED, Razbam or others. They only put the goods on the shelf in the state in which it is at the time of selling. You decide whether you want him or not. Certainly none of us has the right to negate the sales policy, loyalty or related to the issue of subsequent elements of this product. Unless you are a co -creator and one of the parties has not fulfilled the contract. If you are a user/customer, you can always change the "store" and buy something else.
When I go shopping, I do not point out in the store "A" and that in store "B", they added a half kilo of meat to the bought loaf of bread - I return to store B. I do not organize a protest before the store, rally/congregation because the store decided that some articles will not be covered Promotion - I'm going to another store. And if another store does not have what I need/I want, I either buy and not whine or give up shopping.

And as for the question that any module does not give you wants, and you can do the same in other module ... Maybe in DCS there should only be F-16 in total everything can be done with it ... Why other modules? You assess what maybe and what the F-15E which you have not seen on the eyes, it is not known when it will come out. From the announcement, you conclude, at most, the likelihood of what he will have and what he will not. It may be, conclude that he will be released for the Christmas 100% complete... problems and divagations and subsequent reasons to complain...

Funny, you are talking about Store-A and Store-B. Tell me, what is Store-B when DCS was Store-A? maybe Falcon BMS or MSFS? Pahaha. There is no real competitor for DCS so ED can ask the hard core community for any price they want for modules until they reach a point, none of them can handle the price anymore and there is no playerbase left.

It is always good to see, when you point out something problematic with a company and when you try to tell people, some customer just place themself defensive infront of the company, earning nothing from them, like a simp for a streamergirl. While the company just stands there, doing nothing and just watch.

People are different in handling the Market. A Market does not simply put goods in a shelf. They do marketing to make the customer hot before and try to get as much money, they can get from it before people stop buying things. If you buy a car and something brakes, would it be okay for you if the price for spare parts is so high that you better buy another car because it is cheaper? But you may not find an example for that because there are people complaining about high prices for spare parts and therefor the market can not just ask for randome prices.

(To be clear: Even though this is a DCS Forum Topic about Module prices, the following sentence does not directly refer to DCS or EDs price calculations)

people like you are the reason that prices do not have to be adjusted down when they are too high and instead rise for no reason just because there is noone willing to stop the companys

And while you repeat your "noone is forcing you to buy": There are many people who are low on budget but very interested in Flight sims. And these people get pushed to buy "cool modules" because there are people like you around, having no problem to buy that expencive stuff and telling them how good the module is or will be later.

This is like telling people to give up the dream "of becomeing a doctor and heal people in need" just because their family has not the money to pay the study costs.

Can you see in poor people what they can and what they can't? Is it you to decide who is worth playing DCS and who is not?

I bet there are many very good virtual pilots out there giving it up because it is too expencive while there is a whole bunch of people who just keep buying stuff for DCS and are not even worth being called a virtual pilot because they fly so bad.

AhSoul · February 25, 2023

It's a free market. ED/RB can set the price they want - their aim being to cover costs and make a profit - and we as consumers choose to buy at that price (or not). The price at which costs are covered depends on volume sold, so there's trade-offs to be made. If the price is too high for the consumers, they won't purchase in sufficient quantities for costs to be covered and profit to be made, and ED/RB reflect on that and can choose to change.

We don't know their costs, so we're missing fairly vital info on whether the pricing is fair or not. They do know their costs, so we trust they are setting prices that are not exploitatively high. This is not a high-volume market (I imagine), and I would suggest they are not, but we are all free to individually chose the price at which we comfortable making this (or any) purchase.....

Do I personally buy at full price? No - sales are regular enough that clearly ED can make profit at the lower sales/discount prices. You could even argue that the sales are frequent enough that the 'real' price is the sale price, as I can't imagine why many people would buy outside of the sales.

I don't think people should be arguing about whether poor people should be able to play DCS or not though. DCS modules are not a necessity - owning them is not a 'right'. ED is a business in a niche market, and prices are going to reflect that. I'm sure they try to make the prices as reasonable as possible, so as many people can buy as possible while still making profit as a business. Many of the modules are very well priced in the sales, so there are modules for people on tighter budgets if you cannot afford the $55 for the F-15.

Edited February 25, 2023 by AhSoul

Rudel_chw · February 25, 2023

8 hours ago, Gorn_GER said:

Can you see in poor people what they can and what they can't? Is it you to decide who is worth playing DCS and who is not?

I wonder how those poor people can afford a dcs-capable computer on the 1st place.

Scott-S6 · February 25, 2023

On 2/25/2023 at 1:53 AM, Gorn_GER said:

And while you repeat your "noone is forcing you to buy": There are many people who are low on budget but very interested in Flight sims. And these people get pushed to buy "cool modules" because there are people like you around, having no problem to buy that expencive stuff and telling them how good the module is or will be later.

Lots of people are interested in doing things they can't afford to do. It has nothing to do with anything.

ED (and other devs) need to make profit or there will be no more modules. There is no sustainable price at which everyone that might want it can afford it, there will always be someone that can't. Their job is to balance profit per sale with total sales to get the optimum balance. You can see that module prices have tracked pretty closely to the upper end of new video game releases which suggests that it's not a prohibitive price.

Also, rudel makes an excellent point - if you can afford the computer and controllers is buying one or two modules a year really a problem? Especially with regular sales.

ETA, it's pretty fun that in here you're talking about how the modules should be cheaper so that everyone can afford them but in another thread you're telling a guy that his 3070 is obsolete and "who would even buy less than a 3080 to play DCS?".

Edited February 28, 2023 by Scott-S6

Cab · February 25, 2023

10 hours ago, Gorn_GER said:

This is like telling people to give up the dream "of becomeing a doctor and heal people in need" just because their family has not the money to pay the study costs.

More often than not this is the best advice you can give someone. I know this isn’t a popular observation, but too many people waste so much of their lives chasing unattainable dreams.

Nahen · February 25, 2023

1 hour ago, AhSoul said:

...

1 hour ago, Rudel_chw said:

...

35 minutes ago, Scott-S6 said:

...

Just now, Cab said:

More often than not this is the best advice you can give someone. I know this isn’t a popular observation, but too many people waste so much of their lives chasing unattainable dreams.

Scott-S6 · February 25, 2023

28 minutes ago, Cab said:

More often than not this is the best advice you can give someone. I know this isn’t a popular observation, but too many people waste so much of their lives chasing unattainable dreams.

It can be a good thing for someone that is extremely driven - even if they don't get to that dream they'll still get a long way.

Other people will accomplish nothing while waiting for the dream to fall in their lap and would have done better with a much more attainable goal.

AhSoul · February 25, 2023

I also tend to view many of my video game purchases in £££s/hour of enjoyment. It you pay £55 for the F-15, and get 100hrs of enjoyment from it, then I would argue it's a very cost-effective purchase vs some of the other leisure activities you could pay for....

Coota0 · February 26, 2023

On 2/20/2023 at 9:25 PM, trev5150 said:

Are you done?

Are you ready to not be condescending? I asked a question, I didn't ask for a lecture.

Edited February 26, 2023 by Coota0

Letusg345 · March 31, 2023

On 2/25/2023 at 4:45 AM, Rudel_chw said:

I wonder how those poor people can afford a dcs-capable computer on the 1st place.

DCS is surprisingly capable on just a laptop. With the graphics turned to low, it still looks awesome, and the only problem I have with my laptop is the internal hard drive runs out of space pretty quickly.

pii · April 1, 2023

On 2/24/2023 at 4:47 AM, sparrow88 said:

If thats the case then I guess the only reason to buy modules in DCS Shop rather than Steam

You seem to have forgotten at least one reason, that being ED makes more money if you don't buy on Steam and that is good for ED and us so that they can afford to keep making these amazing modules

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