DCS: AH-64D Flight Model discussion

[dedlike.]

agree, the latest update did wonders , maybe it takes a bit of getting used to again,but overall its far better than it used to be, this update was huge for the apache

[Raven434th]

yup seems you can dance with her more now...BUT...george can't fly worth a sh*t and will kill ya quick if told to maneuver out of danger at low altitudes

 

humph...but he does exceptionally well at slow low using H.B mode.....hmmmm 

Edited May 18, 2023 by Raven434th

[Amarok_73]

I can't see, or feel any "wonders" after the last patch when it comes to the hover stability.
Still it's impossible to me to get in the hands free hover as it was possible before last Christmas patch. I am flying this machine since the release and I have good memory of the changes in Apache's FM, and there was the time it was much better.
Perhaps it's the specificity of the FFB hotas? Is there anybody else with FFB that could share his feelings about it?
When I enable the AT mode, all maneuvers i do with the Force Trim/Hold Mode Switch - R/Up depressed, releasing it when hover criteria are met, but FMC seems to be unable to keep authority even if the joystick position is within the gray area on the controls display.
I am starting to get really frustrated about it seeing as others praise, how the behavior of the helicopter has improved.
Here's some clip I've recorded showing how it looks when I am trying to get hands free.

By the way, my Special settings are as follows:

Edited May 18, 2023 by Amarok_73

[Boogdud]

48 minutes ago, Amarok_73 said:

FMC seems to be unable to keep authority even if the joystick position is within the gray area on the controls display.
I am starting to get really frustrated about it seeing as others praise, how the behavior of the helicopter has improved.
 

Well you don't need to feel alone, I'm experiencing similar things and I'm not on a ffb setup. FMC seems to just 'break wild' for me even during level trimmed flight. Almost like flying in a storm. I get the same experience in hovering as well, it may actually be worse than before the patch. Instead of holding a trimmed hover the aircraft just seems to randomly drift (while still maintaining 0 speed somehow). 

forgot to mention, I'm on VKB nxt evo stick and nxt omni throttle with the gnx-thq add on, as well as t-rudders.

Edited May 18, 2023 by Boogdud

[Amarok_73]

9 minutes ago, Boogdud said:

Well you don't need to feel alone,

Thanks for confirmation it's not only me...

[firefox121]

+ one here too with a  ffb joy...now I am going to delete apache module and reinstall again, to see if some file has not been overwritten. 

[Floyd1212]

Do you have a non-FFB stick you can test with?  Just curious if changing to Center Trimmer Mode and a regular stick is more workable.

[Boogdud]

2 minutes ago, Floyd1212 said:

Do you have a non-FFB stick you can test with?  Just curious if changing to Center Trimmer Mode and a regular stick is more workable.

I'm on non-ffb as I mentioned previously and tried both central and instant same results on both but obviously with more 'bob' from the instant trimmer mode. Honestly the aircraft is flying like SAS is disengaged. I've only experimented with the aircraft hot (instant missions), I wonder if doing a cold start might see different results.

[admiki]

2 hours ago, Amarok_73 said:

I can't see, or feel any "wonders" after the last patch when it comes to the hover stability.
Still it's impossible to me to get in the hands free hover as it was possible before last Christmas patch. I am flying this machine since the release and I have good memory of the changes in Apache's FM, and there was the time it was much better.
Perhaps it's the specificity of the FFB hotas? Is there anybody else with FFB that could share his feelings about it?
When I enable the AT mode, all maneuvers i do with the Force Trim/Hold Mode Switch - R/Up depressed, releasing it when hover criteria are met, but FMC seems to be unable to keep authority even if the joystick position is within the gray area on the controls display.
I am starting to get really frustrated about it seeing as others praise, how the behavior of the helicopter has improved.
Here's some clip I've recorded showing how it looks when I am trying to get hands free.

By the way, my Special settings are as follows:

 

Try stick without springs and ffb trim option

[Strannix]

For me it's far more stable than the last update, so hovering is pretty easy. I play with non ffb stick and basic pedals with spring.

My setting in the attached picture.

Edited May 18, 2023 by Strannix

[Rogue Trooper]

I hope the new upgrade is more stable but has the same personality.... if that makes sense.

A bit of airframe roll in the pedals, auto pilots not as strong/dominant as European choppers!

Auto hover a little flimsy.... I like that.

What is the pedal like in autohover, is it easier to overcome the directional auto pilot with a pedal left or right to rotate the nose onto a new fire zone?

Hope to fly her in a day or two.

Edited May 18, 2023 by Rogue Trooper

[Poptart]

Things seem OK to me. I have the same trim settings (I don't trim pedals). I don't hold the trim button down though. I trim, then release, then trim, then release, until the helicopter is somewhat still.

 

 

Edited May 18, 2023 by Poptart

[SloppyDog]

10 hours ago, Amarok_73 said:

I can't see, or feel any "wonders" after the last patch when it comes to the hover stability.
Still it's impossible to me to get in the hands free hover as it was possible before last Christmas patch. I am flying this machine since the release and I have good memory of the changes in Apache's FM, and there was the time it was much better.
Perhaps it's the specificity of the FFB hotas? Is there anybody else with FFB that could share his feelings about it?
When I enable the AT mode, all maneuvers i do with the Force Trim/Hold Mode Switch - R/Up depressed, releasing it when hover criteria are met, but FMC seems to be unable to keep authority even if the joystick position is within the gray area on the controls display.
I am starting to get really frustrated about it seeing as others praise, how the behavior of the helicopter has improved.
Here's some clip I've recorded showing how it looks when I am trying to get hands free.

By the way, my Special settings are as follows:

 

 

I believe the problem that you are having is related to the collective, not so much to the pitch and roll axes. It seems to me that your controls are inputting too much collective, too fast, thus creating the 'wild horse' scenario you get yourself into. The Apache needs a very light touch on the collective, you start (obvioulsy) at 0% torque and slowly, very slowly, bring it up to 60%. I do it in steps, because the torque spikes up and down, so I let it go to 30%, then settles down, then 40%, settles down, then 50... until you get at 60%. At around 60% for most situations of height, temperature and loadout, the Apache will get light on wheels. Then you correct with pedals and cyclic, until you start to hover. 

Mine collective was crazy too, so I changed it to straight line and I go very slowly during takeoffs, landings and hovers. Only time I "Tom Cruise" it, is when flying at speed and feel the helicopter falling, but that's rare. It is usually very light, very slow commands.

 

Regarding the pacth I felt it easier to hover, George more responsive and easier to cruise around. However, I'm having this strange pitch attitude, nose down attitude when after taking off, nosing down to pick up speed. It does a more pronounced nose down attitude, very much so that I had to change pitch saturation to 60% in my control.

Anyone else having a similar problem?

[Amarok_73]

7 hours ago, SloppyDog said:

I believe the problem that you are having is related to the collective

Nah, even if I am not touching the collective, trying just to position myself to get into hover, the heli is way too twitchy.
In general, if I am coming into the hover, as long as controls indicators (those available with Ctrl+Enter) stays within gray area, the heli should be stable and with the AT/AL enabled, the flight computer should dump all inputs and hold the parameters of flight according to the speed that heli has at the moment, the Force Trim Up button/hat was released. And this is not happening since the End of the Year Patch I've mentioned before.

I think we all would appreciate if someone from ED would clearly state what is the ultimate behavour model they're trying to achieve, otherwise all this thread is just a guessing game leading us to nowhere.
As an example of this empty efforts in guessing whether it is as it should be can be the @Apache 64's post from May 4, when he stated that after last patch the the heli is more predictable with shifted CoG and the @BIGNEWY's answer, that the patch have not brought any changes to the Apache's FM and there were no any information about changes in Release Info.
After the last patch I feel opposite, like EDs sits and observe, like we're circling around the subject, with conflicting opinions, because in Release Information there was communicated changes in FM, while in fact there were nothing of any substance provided.
Observing how we all loosing in the assumptions, and guessing, I think we would benefit from the honest dialogue with the tester(s) working with Apache's FM, otherwise, with every patch where the changes in FM are announced, in many of us the frustration increases with feelings that the things goes wrong way and in the end, we will be left with the product that offers no fun for many of Apache Lovers, especially the ones, that have in mind how the Kamov behaves, and appreciating the way the FMC works in that module.
And yes - I _know_ that the FM between these two have to differ, but still I don't believe the real Apache require from pilots so much attention and focus to tame the heli as the ED's implementation do in current version. This feeling is even amplified with the statements like from Casmo, who in one of his movies confirms, that the DCS' Apache is too sensitive.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Amarok_73

[backspace340]

Seeing a big difference in the behaviour when the force trim release is held, feels much more stable in this latest patch compared to the previous one. Since release holding the FTR would make the helo start to roll and feel very top-heavy, but that's now entirely gone - it actually feels natural (like the KA-50) to hold the FTR while changing attitude/orientation and then let go to hold the course once steady. So much easier to fly than it was before!

[backspace340]

1 hour ago, Amarok_73 said:

Nah, even if I am not touching the collective, trying just to position myself to get into hover, the heli is way too twitchy.
In general, if I am coming into the hover, as long as controls indicators (those available with Ctrl+Enter) stays within gray area, the heli should be stable and with the AT/AL enabled, the flight computer should dump all inputs and hold the parameters of flight according to the speed that heli has at the moment, the Force Trim Up button/hat was released. And this is not happening since the End of the Year Patch I've mentioned before.

I think we all would appreciate if someone from ED would clearly state what is the ultimate behavour model they're trying to achieve, otherwise all this thread is just a guessing game leading us to nowhere.
As an example of this empty efforts in guessing whether it is as it should be can be the @Apache 64's post from May 4, when he stated that after last patch the the heli is more predictable with shifter CoG and the @BIGNEWY's answer, that the patch have not brought any changes to the Apache's FM and there were no any information about changes in Release Info.
After the last patch I feel opposite, like EDs sits and observe, like we're circling around the subject, with conflicting opinions, because in Release Information there was communicated changes in FM, while in fact there were nothing of any substance provided.
Observing how we all loosing in the assumptions, and guessing, I think we would benefit from the honest dialogue with the tester(s) working with Apache's FM, otherwise, with every patch where the changes in FM are announced, in many of us the frustration increases with feelings that the things goes wrong way and in the end, we will be left with the product that offers no fun for many of Apache Lovers, especially the ones, that have in mind how the Kamov behaves, and appreciating the way the FMC works in that module.
And yes - I _know_ that the FM between these two have to differ, but still I don't believe the real Apache require from pilots so much attention and focus to tame the heli as the ED's implementation do in current version. This feeling is even amplified with the statements like from Casmo, who in one of his movies confirms, that the DCS' Apache is too sensitive.

One thing that seemed a bit confusing from your video - it looked like you engaged Atittude Hold straight after takeoff when you weren't actually hovering and then left it engaged for the whole video. But once you went over 5 knots it would have gone to normal attitude hold (not position hold/hover hold) and so I wouldn't expect it to hold a hover after that. I think perhaps worth trying getting into a stable hover first (without lateral movement) with FTR held and then releasing the FTR and activating attitude hold (and alt hold if you want), that should hold the hover. And if you go over 5 knots and then want to hover again, I'm assuming you need to cancel attitude hold, bring it to a hover and re-activate it.

[Amarok_73]

13 minutes ago, backspace340 said:

One thing that seemed a bit confusing from your video

I keep AT enabled all the time, but working with the Force Trim Up and when I am below 5 knots, I am releasing it so the FMC should get it stabilized. This was already working like that (correctly as I assume) before the end of the year patch was released.

 

[jubuttib]

It's been quite interesting for me recently. When the first iteration of MT came in a patch, I found the Apache suddenly really nice and stable in a hover, and overall much nicer to fly, and very easy to get into a hover hold. Then with some of the later updates that went away, it becoming super twitchy again (this despite having my saturations dropped to 70%).

With yesterday's patch I didn't really see much change in the stability, still being insanely squirrely and hard to hold in a hover vs. any other helicopter in the game, getting the hover hold to actually engage a hover instead of veering hard to a random direction seemed to be down to pure luck (even with the speed line ultra short and the acceleration ball centered), but I did notice the SCAS channels behaving themselves better, especially collective.

All of the above (including all my previous tests with older versions) were done with IHADSS visible, in the mode usually used for takeoffs. For some reason I decided to then test flying the Apache without the IHADSS, and after a little bit I found it a lot easier to hover, even if I hadn't been consciously looking at the IHADSS symbology. With the IHADSS visible, there's a HUGE tendency for me to end up in situations where even though I'm making tiny stick movements, the helicopter will just end up banking hard and wandering all over the place. With the IHADSS disabled, this didn't really happen anymore, and I got the helicopter to activate hover hold much more consistently too.

Shrug, worth a try for some peeps, I guess. FWIW I still think it's weirdly unstable compared to any other helicopter in the game, or any other helicopter I've flown in other (civilian) sims for that matter. A Huey also requires constant small inputs to hover, but it's so much more calm than the Apache.

[exil]

52 minutes ago, jubuttib said:

It's been quite interesting for me recently. When the first iteration of MT came in a patch, I found the Apache suddenly really nice and stable in a hover, and overall much nicer to fly, and very easy to get into a hover hold. Then with some of the later updates that went away, it becoming super twitchy again (this despite having my saturations dropped to 70%).

With yesterday's patch I didn't really see much change in the stability, still being insanely squirrely and hard to hold in a hover vs. any other helicopter in the game, getting the hover hold to actually engage a hover instead of veering hard to a random direction seemed to be down to pure luck (even with the speed line ultra short and the acceleration ball centered), but I did notice the SCAS channels behaving themselves better, especially collective.

All of the above (including all my previous tests with older versions) were done with IHADSS visible, in the mode usually used for takeoffs. For some reason I decided to then test flying the Apache without the IHADSS, and after a little bit I found it a lot easier to hover, even if I hadn't been consciously looking at the IHADSS symbology. With the IHADSS visible, there's a HUGE tendency for me to end up in situations where even though I'm making tiny stick movements, the helicopter will just end up banking hard and wandering all over the place. With the IHADSS disabled, this didn't really happen anymore, and I got the helicopter to activate hover hold much more consistently too.

Shrug, worth a try for some peeps, I guess. FWIW I still think it's weirdly unstable compared to any other helicopter in the game, or any other helicopter I've flown in other (civilian) sims for that matter. A Huey also requires constant small inputs to hover, but it's so much more calm than the Apache.

I've tested and disabled the SCAS in pitch and roll axis. Now it's perfectly stable. 

For me it seems that the SCAS is causing the helicopter to wobble because it reacts too sluggish and is countering your inputs. That leads to a reaction on the human side to counter the inputs from the SCAS which again leads to a SCAS countering your inputs and so on. This creates a feeling of steadily fighting the helo. 

[Rongor]

8 minutes ago, exil said:

I've tested and disabled the SCAS in pitch and roll axis. Now it's perfectly stable. 

For me it seems that the SCAS is causing the helicopter to wobble because it reacts too sluggish and is countering your inputs. That leads to a reaction on the human side to counter the inputs from the SCAS which again leads to a SCAS countering your inputs and so on. This creates a feeling of steadily fighting the helo. 

exactly what I am experiencing.

I am at a 20 cm stick extension and have to apply curves to dampen this issue. Feels odd.

Many of my control inputs are needed because the SCAS forces me to counteract.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Rongor

[cow_art]

5 minutes ago, exil said:

I've tested and disabled the SCAS in pitch and roll axis. Now it's perfectly stable. 

For me it seems that the SCAS is causing the helicopter to wobble because it reacts too sluggish and is countering your inputs. That leads to a reaction on the human side to counter the inputs from the SCAS which again leads to a SCAS countering your inputs and so on. This creates a feeling of steadily fighting the helo. 

I've only had a short time to try the update yesterday but my initial impressions were similar. The Apache feels great now while the FTR is being held down. But when the SCAS does its thing (without any hold modes) the helicopter feels kinda unpredictable and wobbly. WIP I guess?

[admiki]

44 minutes ago, exil said:

I've tested and disabled the SCAS in pitch and roll axis. Now it's perfectly stable. 

For me it seems that the SCAS is causing the helicopter to wobble because it reacts too sluggish and is countering your inputs. That leads to a reaction on the human side to counter the inputs from the SCAS which again leads to a SCAS countering your inputs and so on. This creates a feeling of steadily fighting the helo. 

Or you can just hold FTR

[Belphe]

1 hour ago, Rongor said:

exactly what I am experiencing.

I am at a 20 cm stick extension and have to apply curves to dampen this issue. Feels odd.

Many of my control inputs are needed because the SCAS forces me to counteract.

 

Precisely what I'm experiencing! All the money spent on extensions and precision oriented gear and we have to dumb down their sensitivity by flattening the curves to actually have control

[Floyd1212]

8 hours ago, SloppyDog said:

I'm having this strange pitch attitude, nose down attitude when after taking off, nosing down to pick up speed. It does a more pronounced nose down attitude, very much so that I had to change pitch saturation to 60% in my control.

Check that NOE/A Mode is not enabled on the main UTIL page.  When enabled, at speeds below 80 the stabilator is used to pitch the nose of the aircraft down to provide better visibility while flying NOE.  (This sometimes gets enabled through some desync issue between the pages of the MFD.)

[Raptor9]

Dear all, it needs to be understood that everyone's experience with the flight model of the DCS AH-64D may vary somewhat based on the hardware used and the individual settings they have set in the options. Because of the various hardware combinations (or personal preferences) that we all have, as many options to tune the individual controls are provided, and some additional options are being looked at to provide even more tailorable configurations for flight control. As an example of the desire to provide as many options as possible, we've provided some additional controller options this patch that allows users without an analog axis to adjust how their 4-way or 8-way hat switches control the TADS.

Having said that, due to the varied experiences that people are having, we can only state when changes are made to the flight model, and when they are not. As I have personally stated multiple times in this thread and others, the facts are the facts when it comes to what is included in any given update. If someone experiences something different following any given update (whether perceived or real), we are not saying these experiences are not occurring, we are simply stating whether the flight model, SCAS, or hold mode logics have changed in any given update. No more, no less.

One final note based on some confusion I am seeing in this thread. The shaded area in the Controls Indicator corresponds with the range that the FMC can move the swashplate independently of the pilot's control positions. However, the Attitude Hold (whether it is in Position, Velocity, or Attitude Hold sub-modes) will only engage if the cyclic is within the "breakout" value of 0.25 inches from the force trim reference position (with some additional criteria as well, such as pitch/roll rates). This equates to roughly 2.5% of the axis travel in either direction (actually 2.5% in pitch, 2.25% in roll). If you enable the Attitude Hold but continue to move your stick around in excess of 2.5% axis travel from the last position that you released the force trim, the Attitude Hold will not engage because you are telling the FMC that your intentions are to fly the aircraft yourself.

To get the Attitude Hold to work for you, fly the aircraft to the desired state while pressing the force trim, then let go of the force trim and do not move the cyclic. If you move the cyclic and exceed the "breakout" value, even if the force trim is not pressed, the Attitude Hold will disengage.