Any Cold War map, not only modern day. Like 1950s Korea, 1960s Vietnam, 1970s Egypt/Israel, 1980s Iraq/Iran, 1991 Gulf.

[bies]

There are many maps in DCS, available and in developement, but except for WW2, they are all modeled like in civilian simulator as 2020 modern day timeframe - and this takes away some of the combat simulator atmosphere and makes DCS feel like cockpit simulator/civilian simulator/sandbox etc. when you fly historical aircrafts like 1944 Bf109, 1972 MiG-21bis or 2005 F/A-18 over 'modern day 2020 civilian map'. Other military simulators had maps modeled as particular warzones with proper timeframe.

All the maps like 2020 Persian Gulf, Marianas, South Atlentic, Sinai, Kola Peninsula, Australia etc. are proper only for fictional scenarios - there were no wars over them in ~2020. What is more even "modern" modules like F/A-18, F-16, Apache etc. are modeled as year ~2005. 15-20 years old standard of second Iraq war, not 2020. Fictional scenarios are not exactly bad, but there is a problem when all scenarios have to be only fictional.

My wish is to have e.g. 1950 Korea map, or 1967 Six-Day-War Syria map, 1960s Vietnam map, 1973 Yom Kippur Sinai map, 1980s Libyan map, 1980s Iraq/Iran border map, 1991 Gulf War map. As they would portray real all out conflicts and match aircrafts we have in DCS.

Or when fictional - at least some plausible like 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis map of Cuba, Cold War Fulda Gap divided Germany map e.g. during Berlin Crysis, Arctic Crisis 1970s-1980s Kola Peninsula map etc.

cheers

Edited August 28, 2023 by bies

[Gunfreak]

I assume if we are still alive when a Korean war and Vietnam war map comes they will be period specific. 

I too would have preferred Sinai to be 1980s era at latest. But at least this era still uses some of the aircraft in the game.

 

A 2022 Kola map is a bit useless. Norway now uses F35, Finland will soon also use F35. Sweden uses Gripen. Russia while still using Some Su27 and MiG29s  generally now uses later models.

 

So really none of the main players on that map uses aircraft we have in game. Should have modeled it on Mid to late 90s. When Norway still used F16s, Finland F18s, and Russia was still flying around with early MiG29 and Su27s and even MiG21s.

[Dragon1-1]

I don't think Kola map will be 2022, also remember that more remote areas, such as that one, changed relatively little between 1990s and mid-2000s. From 1990s to 2022 there will likely be more changes, but Google Maps started out in 2005, and I think that data should still be available somewhere. For earlier eras, there's often just not enough imagery to go on, before large scale digital satellite photography many places were simply never properly documented. That's part of the reason why a WWII-era map of the whole world is unlikely to ever be done - nobody knows how large swatches of it looked back then.

[Exorcet]

On 3/30/2023 at 2:57 PM, bies said:

There are many maps in DCS, available and in developement, but except for WW2, they all have one common feature - they are modeled like in civilian simulator as 2020 timeframe - and this takes away some of the combat sumulator atmosphere. Other military simulators had maps modeled as particular warzones with proper timeframe.

The maps are fine in my opinion. They also aren't 100% accurate representations remember, so they're also a bit flexible. They don't represent one set date, they can span maybe a decade or so. The other problem is, war is big usually. We don't have any maps large enough to actually capture real theaters of war. Gulf War requires Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar. Korea requires N and S Korea. Vietnam, all of Vietnam, etc. I think the maps we have are partially because it's the best we can get right now.

On 3/30/2023 at 2:57 PM, bies said:

All the maps like 2020 Persian Gulf, Marianas, South Atlentic, Sinai, Kola Peninsula, Australia etc. are proper only for fictional scenarios - there were no wars over them in ~2020. What is more even "modern" modules like F/A-18, F-16, Apache etc. are modeled as ~2005, 15-20 years old standard of second Iraq war, not 2020. Fictional scenarios are not exactly bad, but there is a problem when all scenarios have to be only fictional.

Fictional is fine and so are the modules. The maps are close enough for the 4th gen stuff we have and those planes also would exist for a few years without changes (depending on the exact history of updates, etc)

On 3/30/2023 at 2:57 PM, bies said:

My wish is to have i.e. 1950 Korean War Korea map, or 1967 Six-Day-War Syria map, 1960s Vietnam map, 1973 Yom Kippur Sinai map, 1980s Libyan map, 1980s Iraq/Iran border map, 1991 Gulf War map. As they would portray real all out conflicts and match aircrafts we have in DCS.

Would love to have all of this for sure.

On 3/30/2023 at 2:57 PM, bies said:

Or when fictional - at least some plausible like 1962 Missile Crisis Cuba map, Cold War Fulda Gap or Kola Peninsula map etc.

All of our maps are plausible, I don't understand what you mean.

But I do agree with the desire for historical maps, especially if we get them in full. Part sized maps I'm personally less interested in.

[kseremak]

Agree with historical maps. Flying Sabre over skyscreapers and modern infrastructure feels wrong and kills immersion. WW2 has its own maps, cold war should have something as well.

[Northstar98]

While I absolutely agree on having historically accurate maps, I think the primary reason why they're all modern is because modern data is typically going to be much more abundant and readily available than historical data.

For maps like the Kola Peninsula, even if it is a present day map, it should still be incredibly usable as a late Cold War map. I can't really name much in the way of significant changes from say, how it was in the 80s, to how it is now.

Some airbases on the Kola Peninsula itself have been closed down - but the overwhelming majority are still extant with their layouts clearly visible, as such it shouldn't be too much of a challenge to model them (such as Kilpyavr, Afrikanda, Severomorsk-2, Umbozero, Taliy Ruchey, Kosha Yavr, Luostari). Some S-75 sites have been converted into S-300 sites and have had their layouts changed accordingly, but again, most of the air defense sites are clearly visible in present day satellite imagery, with some having the positions of revetments and buildings visible (though are mostly ruined).

Edited April 2, 2023 by Northstar98

[Mr_sukebe]

My preference would be for all of the specific theatres to be a suitable "historic" time period.  For one thing, if/when we get the world map, that's most probably going to be present day, which would result in either conflict in detail between the maps or our current day theatres suddenly being pointless.

It also gives a specific reason to chose DCS over certain Civ sims that cover the whole world as they're unlikely to ever offer a historic version.

[-SkyRaider-]

I also agree; maps where to fly low tech jets, especially in the period 1950-1970s.

Edited April 1, 2023 by SkorpioN1606689188
correction

[draconus]

7 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

I think the primary reason why they're all modern is because modern data is typically going to be much more abundant than historical data).

I think both sides of cold war have much more satellite data than they're willing to admit

[Northstar98]

11 minutes ago, draconus said:

I think both sides of cold war have much more satellite data than they're willing to admit

Hmm, perhaps I should add a "readily available" after abundant.

[Dragon1-1]

They don't necessarily have it anymore, remember that any data from the 60s or 70s might not have been perfectly preserved, in addition to concerning only areas of interest to the military. With satellites of the era, something like Google Maps wouldn't have been possible, because of technical limitations. Those images were taken on photographic film, and the people who managed the satellite program had to carefully plan when the satellites would be taking pictures, and what they'll be looking at, in order to avoid wasting valuable film. Satellite data from mid-Cold War will be patchy at best, even assuming it was stored in perfect conditions.

We have plenty of old maps, but actual appearance of many things that weren't of immediate military interest will in many cases be lost forever. This complicates creating maps set before the 2000s.

Edited April 1, 2023 by Dragon1-1

[Exorcet]

2 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

We have plenty of old maps, but actual appearance of many things that weren't of immediate military interest will in many cases be lost forever. This complicates creating maps set before the 2000s.

 

I feel like this is good enough. Even the modern maps aren't 1:1 representations. Give us a reasonable 50's map with 50's autogenerated buildings (outside of important landmarks of course) and I think that's plenty good.

If we can get 100% accurate maps all the better, but I don't think we absolutely need them.

[draconus]

Who knows what tech and  experience ED gets from Marianas modern vs WW2 development.

Generally what changes in older times is:

- less and smaller roads

- less road and city lights

- smaller cities with older and less tall buildings

- more forests and farmlands

- no wind farms

- specific time airbases, ports, industrials and structures

...so unless it's area of specific interest it all can be educated guess.

[Dragon1-1]

7 hours ago, Exorcet said:

Give us a reasonable 50's map with 50's autogenerated buildings (outside of important landmarks of course) and I think that's plenty good.

The thing is, for us, "important landmarks" include airbases. I think that's what killed oldtimey Sinai - not enough pictures of important airbases. Granted, those were prime targets for spy satellites for European terrains, but for anywhere else... not so much. 

[Northstar98]

On 4/2/2023 at 12:02 AM, Dragon1-1 said:

They don't necessarily have it anymore, remember that any data from the 60s or 70s might not have been perfectly preserved, in addition to concerning only areas of interest to the military. With satellites of the era, something like Google Maps wouldn't have been possible, because of technical limitations. Those images were taken on photographic film, and the people who managed the satellite program had to carefully plan when the satellites would be taking pictures, and what they'll be looking at, in order to avoid wasting valuable film. Satellite data from mid-Cold War will be patchy at best, even assuming it was stored in perfect conditions.

We have plenty of old maps, but actual appearance of many things that weren't of immediate military interest will in many cases be lost forever. This complicates creating maps set before the 2000s.

I mean, at least for Kola there's satellite maps available from the mid 1980s onwards, but it's obviously very low resolution. However, it is enough to spot some differences in some areas when comparing it to present day imagery.

Fortunately, much of the Kola map seems like it's more-or-less unchanged - I guess that's somewhat to be expected when much of the land area is mostly un/sparsely inhabited. That's not to say there are no differences, but I doubt they'd be as noticeable as say - the Burj Khalifa and all the other modern buildings in Dubai. I'll list what I've found so far in the spoiler below (though this list certainly going to be far from comprehensive, but I'll try to keep it updated as I find stuff):

Spoiler

Norway:

• GLOBUS II/III radars in Vardø, the GLOBUS I radome (operational in the late 80s to end of the 90s) is still present to the north (alongside what wikimapia thinks is an ATC radar, which is the smaller radome)
• Several air-surveillance radars dotted around Norway (SINDRE I & II replacing AN/FPS-110, AN/FPS-6, S-244, S-266 & S-600 sites).

Russia:

• An ammunition depot ~10 km NNE of Severomorsk-1, in '85 imagery it's difficult to determine if it's there or not, in mid 2000s imagery several large revetments can be seen clustered near a road and in mid 2010s imagery and onwards large bunkers can be seen being constructed in the revetments as well as significant expansion to the west, culminating into how the area looks today.
• There's a very small airstrip near Lovozero which seems to be disused - it isn't there in '85 imagery.
• Obviously, as per my previous post, several airbases are closed, but most are still extant - there are a few however that can be clearly seen to be in a state of disrepair though you can still see the layout fairly well, such as Khariusniy and Kitsa.

Fun fact about Kitsa - there was an R-14U IRBM regiment stationed nearby (according to wiki they became operational in the 60s and were completely retired by the mid 80s, replaced with the RSD-10). There were 2 sites, each with 3 launch silos. The sites appear to have their silo doors removed and filled in (though the silo doors are visible in historical imagery). (Here's the eastern site and here's the south-western site - you can see 2 silo doors present in the former link and 3 in the latter) EDIT: There's another launching position further to the SSE, but is ruined, with the silo doors removed and the silos themselves flooded.

• According to this, the 175th Independent Naval Infantry Brigade was stationed at Turmannyy. However, according to this, in 1993 the 175th was disbanded and some of its elements have been incorporated into the 61st Independent Naval Infantry Brigade (renamed 61st Independent Naval Infantry Regiment in 06/2009) which is based at Sputnik (where buildings, vehicle parks and a tank gunnery range is clearly visible). The Turmannyy site however appears ruined with only very few structures extant.

Edited April 8, 2023 by Northstar98
Included link to Lovozero airstrip

[Dragon1-1]

Looks like as long as we get the airbases looking like they used to, the differences are all correctable in ME. Which, to be honest, is unsurprising, given how sparsely populated the place is. However, Kola is an exception in that it's a sparsely populated region that was nonetheless critically important during Cold War (and it still is quite strategic). Most other strategic have more people living there.

[Northstar98]

6 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Looks like as long as we get the airbases looking like they used to, the differences are all correctable in ME.

Well, all the airbases in the region are basically unchanged since at least the late Cold War and even the ones that are supposedly closed are still extant like they were still in operational use (at least from what I can tell from satellite imagery). It's only really Kitsa and Khariusniy that aren't (Kitsa doesn't seem to be a major airbase, at least from what I can find here, while Khariusniy was used as a staging base for Tu-16s of the VMF), however, for both of them the layouts seem to be easy to infer from satellite imagery, so hopefully they shouldn't be too difficult to do.

Another thing though is SAM sites - many former sites are overgrown, though for the most part, you can still see where they are and even the positions of major elements (such as fire-control radars and launchers). The ones that are still present and easily identifiable are all SA-10/20 sites (some possibly converted from former SA-2 sites).

[Bremspropeller]

A 60s-70s Congo/ neighbouring countries (Angola, Rhodesia, Mocambique, etc) would be awesome, not least for the reasons stated above.

Limited conflict. Motley crew mercenary action, flying vintage to state of the art aircraft over lush jungle canopies and breathtaking landscapes out of small airfields and bush-strips..

As long as you're sticking to the town towns and cities, time-frames should make little impact other than the extent of urban sprawl.

[upyr1]

I would love to see a 1970s/80s Syria and Sainai for both  F-110s.

Phantom vs Fishbed ftw. 

Also a multi era central Europe map or Kola Peninsula. 

Central Europe is a great home for the sabres,  MiG-15 and 19 as well as the F-110s.

Then break out the ABBA tapes a 1970s/80s Kola map would be an awesome Viggen and Draken vs MiG-21 and 23 showdown 

[irisono]

In fact, DCS maps do not cover the major conflicts of our time, with the only exception of the Normandy / Channel map. And it's a pity that the new Sinai map won't remedy this deficiency. An opportunity was missed here to cover conflicts that were so important for the development military aviation, such as the Sinai-Suez War 1956, 6-Day War 1967, Yom Kippur / October War 1973. But maybe a Vietnam map 1960-1980 will come soon and improve the situation regarding aviation history.