SA-342 Gazelle 2023 "FM" Update

[cfrag]

12 hours ago, MADLOU1 said:

WE NEED MORE  CONTENT!! More instant missions, more missions, campaigns.  All the other helos have loads of content.

Agreed. One thing that was holding the Zelle back until now was it's FM. 

So, let's dig in and create Zelle Missions and share them. I'm thinking about a 'Gunship Tango' variant for the Zelle. What's your current project to share with the community?

[Mordants]

Anyone have issues with the update for SA342 and use StreamDeck DCS Interface, would be grateful for a solution since I spent ages creating my profile for the original model. I mean switches are mostly the same in the new version, cheers.

[daemon1808]

JUAS ... the autohover is more or less working but, as I think that the rudder instant/center trim have some kind of bug, you can't lock the rudder during Autohover.

That makes imposible to remain stable unless you are using physical pedals (not the twist axys on a stick or a rocker in a throttle, like me).

 

[ldang]

4 hours ago, vsTerminus said:

1. The Gazelle should require some aft and right cyclic in a hover with calm winds, right? Well, right now it requires aft and left cyclic, but wants to roll right so hard that it still hangs right skid low. Something is generating a lot of right roll that probably shouldn't be.

 

I'm not sure about this part though. It was tripping me out at first but looking back at these graphs, the cyclic should almost always be on the left side.  I find the cyclic position is pretty well established, w.r.t the graphs from this video

However, other controls doesn't match where they should be. I found myself constantly have to put right pedal, and the tail surface doesn't seem to have any effect (50% right pedal at around 200kmph). Also 60% torque in a hover make you go straight up without ever slowdown, even as you go past 1000ft.

Also I thought gazelle is able to break 200kmph, but it is not the case right now. 30% fuel and 90% torque get you exactly 200kmph

 

null

[Ramsay]

46 minutes ago, scoobie said:

This:

5 hours ago, vsTerminus said:

1. The Gazelle should require some aft and right cyclic in a hover with calm winds, right? Well, right now it requires aft and left cyclic (...)

Where do you get this information ?

AFAIK the control positions have been tuned using SME feedback and US Flight Test Data which show the cyclic aft and slightly left of center (50%) in a hover (0 knots) in both IGE (3-5 ft) and OGE (75-100 ft)

Edited June 11, 2023 by Ramsay

[Bremspropeller]

20 minutes ago, ldang said:

Also I thought gazelle is able to break 200kmph, but it is not the case right now. 30% fuel and 90% torque get you exactly 200kmph

I saw 260 yesterday in a slick, while testing. Pretty much straight an level.

That was soon followed by a smoking hole in the ground, as I tried a quick roll.

Quote

After looking into the weight thing more deeply i saw that removing the doors has no effect on weight, would be cool if this could make her loose some extra pounds...

Yes, please make the door-removal beneficial.

[ldang]

7 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

I saw 260 yesterday in a slick, while testing. Pretty much straight an level.

 

you are right, I just did a quick test and reach 240 in a slick L

 

[Gizmokev]

The NASA Data clearly shows the trim positions are correct.

All the talk about, "I think it should be this or that" is irrelevant when IRL data provided shows your thoughts are wrong.

[Tuturuu]

After a whole weekend flying the Gazelle, I can say that my opinion about the FM got super positive and it's a very different feeling than from other heli. It such an interesting module now.
I love the gyroscope of the L ~Cold war variant

I think the remaining issues that I would like to see investigated are 

• Feels like rudders needed correction are a tad too sensitive at times and it's hard to be perfectly smooth with the instant trim rudder. It's really improved with 80% saturation tho but It still feels exagerated at time.
• Ground effect seems a bit too thin and will sometime feel inconsistent. The Gazelle is very underperforming on few enigma Farp for instance even at 80% load at 10°C (5k feet), it's impossible to even trully take-off sometime. This last part is perhaps true to life tho but feels like it should manage.
• Perahps rolling at high speed act a bit weird sometime it feels like it won't turn the aircraft at all. I don't think it's the stabilisation system that is fighting (This is actually greatly moduled, you can really feel it)  my input as it simply feel weird to be able to roll at 20° without translating at all at more than 200km/h
• And of course the auto-hover but known issue. 

Frankly the job done is already top-notch, I will for sure follow the Kiowa release closely.

PS: I'm curious if it would be possible to show the co-pilot display on screen (top left side for example) if you alt + click on it for instance ? Would be a great tool

[bengo]

Collective behavior. When moving the collective down aggressively and then pulling it up again, the torque drops/cuts-out significantly before recovering. Is this real-life behavior or a sim-feature ?

[Huggy54]

19 hours ago, RealDCSpilot said:

Yes it moves with the trim hat and this works somehow. The big problem is trim release, it's hard to describe but the stick "runs away" from every new trim position. Everytime you trim it for a new position it kind of multipies the x and y position value of the position you intended and the stick snaps further away from the intended position. It seems to have the exact same offset from the position before the trim. It's either a bug or a wrong concept.

 

Try to change the Special setting for the SA 342. There are - besides none - 3 types of trim for pedal and cyclic which have differend effects on the trimmer.
You can choose between 3 modes:  Instant - Fade in/out and Central position mode. 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Huggy54

[jef32]

Some here are speaking here about trimming the helicopter for using the missiles HOT:

In first, even well trimmed, It's impossible to use the same joystick after for pointing the targer.

In 2nd: In the real Gazelle, the crew are 2 persons. One for piloting, the other for managing and using the weapons. Us, behind our computers, we are alone ( excepting in the share cockpit mode on multiplayer). So the auto-hover fonction was here to compensate the fact that we are alone. For me, for now, the Gazelle is totally out of fonction until the return of the auto-hover function.

 

 

Edited June 11, 2023 by jef32

[ldang]

13 minutes ago, jef32 said:

Some here are speaking here about trimming the helicopter for using the missiles HOT:

In first, even well trimmed, It's impossible to use the same joystick after for pointing the targer.

In 2nd: In the real Gazelle, the crew are 2 persons. One for piloting, the other for managing and using the weapons. Us, behind our computers, we are alone ( excepting in the share cockpit mode on multiplayer). So the auto-hover fonction was here to compensate the fact that we are alone. For me, for now, the Gazelle is totally out of fonction until the return of the auto-hover function.

 

 

 

the solution is hopefully an AI pilot/copilot like George/Petrovich. May be he should be named Piere?

or Suzanne if Polychop decided to make a she flier

 

To be fair, the SAS do a pretty good job of maintaining position if you trim the gaz well. At least I feel so in the Lima, whereas if that the case for the Mike I don't know yet

Edited June 11, 2023 by ldang

[daemon1808]

Sometimes I think there are two versions of DCS out there. ^_^

Please, could anyone whose RUDDER TRIM works well post a video using it? You know: takeoff, go around doing some maneuvers, full stopping and hover, landing, etc.. using the trim constantly.

I want just to compare it with what I have found (in the bugs thread). It should be easy for anyone that have an NVIDIA card (using the GeForce Experience)

Thanks in advance

[RealDCSpilot]

3 hours ago, Huggy54 said:

Try to change the Special setting for the SA 342. There are - besides none - 3 types of trim for pedal and cyclic which have differend effects on the trimmer.
You can choose between 3 modes:  Instant - Fade in/out and Central position mode. 

Already tried everything, instant trim should be the right choice for a FFB stick. It simply doesn't work right.

[Danzig]

i want the old FM back

or at least the autohoverfunction as it was

Edited June 11, 2023 by Danzig

[fjacobsen]

Autohover does work.

Ensure that any movement fwd/aft - left/right is zeroed out (use the NADIR).

Also ensure thst V/S is zero.

Activate AP and Hdg hold then Avtivate Autohover.

The Gazelle should now remain stable in a hover.

But it can be twitchy - any control input might get it into instability.

 

Note that there are two rows of CVS and ALV lights that can be toggled - what each mode is doing I don't know.

A more thorough description of thr current AP would be nice.

 

Edited June 11, 2023 by fjacobsen

[Teeps]

4 hours ago, jef32 said:

Some here are speaking here about trimming the helicopter for using the missiles HOT:

In first, even well trimmed, It's impossible to use the same joystick after for pointing the targer.

In 2nd: In the real Gazelle, the crew are 2 persons. One for piloting, the other for managing and using the weapons. Us, behind our computers, we are alone ( excepting in the share cockpit mode on multiplayer). So the auto-hover fonction was here to compensate the fact that we are alone. For me, for now, the Gazelle is totally out of fonction until the return of the auto-hover function.

 

 

 

Ah, I see the problem. I'm fortunate enough to have a pair of axes that I can dedicate to control of the sight whilst the joystick remains in control of the cyclic.

[Moxica]

1 hour ago, fjacobsen said:

Autohover does work.

Ensure that any movement fwd/aft - left/right is zeroed out (use the NADIR).

Also ensure thst V/S is zero.

Activate AP and Hdg hold then Avtivate Autohover.

The Gazelle should now remain stable in a hover.

But it can be twitchy - any control input might get it into instability.

 

Note that there are two rows of CVS and ALV lights that can be toggled - what each mode is doing I don't know.

A more thorough description of thr current AP would be nice.

 

 

True!
I do not know what they do either, and without using mentioned autopilot or NADIR, I allways manage to obtain a hover solid enough to find and lase targets until boom!
Sometimes when activating second row light, I start to spin. Hope to learn more soon.
But thank you for mentioning the NADIR in this context, as I have never checked it out, but now I feel inspired and believe I will find something useful. Do I will immediately google the term

[Moxica]

I just love the "new" Gazelle!
Flying the The Apache is like being in a Hollywood movie.
Flying the Gazelle is like being in a documentary

[scoobie]

10 hours ago, Ramsay said:

Where do you get this information ?

AFAIK the control positions have been tuned using SME feedback and US Flight Test Data which show the cyclic aft and slightly left of center (50%) in a hover (0 knots) in both IGE (3-5 ft) and OGE (75-100 ft)

I'll speak for myself only. I got the data from the best data source I've got - the ceiling over my head Meaning I assumed that since all helos (AFAICR) in DCS need either left pedal and aft-left cyclic or right pedal and aft-right cyclic, this means Gazelle should be the same. If I'm wrong, that's fantastic! That would mean PC got it right.

Edited June 11, 2023 by scoobie

[FlyGuyTN]

11 hours ago, Mordants said:

Anyone have issues with the update for SA342 and use StreamDeck DCS Interface, would be grateful for a solution since I spent ages creating my profile for the original model. I mean switches are mostly the same in the new version, cheers.

Following:

 

Yep, my profile (Downloaded SA342) doesn't work either. it was WONDERFUL to have this with the SA342 before the update. Really quite tired of something breaking every update, but alas, seems the way it is.

 

Regards,

 

Edited June 11, 2023 by FlyGuyTN

[daemon1808]

13 hours ago, Moxica said:

True!
I do not know what they do either, and without using mentioned autopilot or NADIR, I allways manage to obtain a hover solid enough to find and lase targets until boom!
Sometimes when activating second row light, I start to spin. Hope to learn more soon.
But thank you for mentioning the NADIR in this context, as I have never checked it out, but now I feel inspired and believe I will find something useful. Do I will immediately google the term

I think that the second light used to be the auto-center. In the old gazelle rotate the helicopter to match where the Viviane camera was pointing. Now it doesn't work and the helicopter just spin arround. As the autohover seem to be a WIP, I belive this will be fixed at some point.

[Hiob]

On 6/11/2023 at 12:10 PM, ldang said:

you are right, I just did a quick test and reach 240 in a slick L

 

You need to trim for aerodynamic (ball centered) if you want to reach topspeed. N-T trim won't get you there.

On 6/10/2023 at 9:13 PM, daemon1808 said:

THIS:

 

I have test it and it seems to have some kind of weight problem, that request max power at low speed/hover. Or maybe have I lost something?

Except that, I like it... seems very similar to the other helicopter flight models

 

I really don't think, she's a cow now.  Quite the opposite.

The FM only take weight in proper account now. When you add the big fat sight, you add about 20% to her gross weight. Add some HOTs and full fuel and you above her limits. Remove that crap and fill only in the fuel you actually need and she's a nimble little bug.

[daemon1808]

2 hours ago, Hiob said:

You need to trim for aerodynamic (ball centered) if you want to reach topspeed. N-T trim won't get you there.

I really don't think, she's a cow now.  Quite the opposite.

The FM only take weight in proper account now. When you add the big fat sight, you add about 20% to her gross weight. Add some HOTs and full fuel and you above her limits. Remove that crap and fill only in the fuel you actually need and she's a nimble little bug.

Yes, someone said in the comments of the video that the problem is been at full fuel, even with no payload.

As usually, in the ME, I do not adjust the standard fuel amount for the other helicopters (unless I have a huge payload). So, I didn't realize that the fuel now must be ajusted even with no payload and been at sea level.

Once taking this into account, all seems better (except the problem with the trim).

Thanks!