SA-342 Gazelle 2023 "FM" Update

[nazradu]

On 6/11/2023 at 12:56 PM, Tuturuu said:

After a whole weekend flying the Gazelle, I can say that my opinion about the FM got super positive and it's a very different feeling than from other heli. It such an interesting module now.
I love the gyroscope of the L ~Cold war variant

I think the remaining issues that I would like to see investigated are 

• Feels like rudders needed correction are a tad too sensitive at times and it's hard to be perfectly smooth with the instant trim rudder. It's really improved with 80% saturation tho but It still feels exagerated at time.
• Ground effect seems a bit too thin and will sometime feel inconsistent. The Gazelle is very underperforming on few enigma Farp for instance even at 80% load at 10°C (5k feet), it's impossible to even trully take-off sometime. This last part is perhaps true to life tho but feels like it should manage.
• Perahps rolling at high speed act a bit weird sometime it feels like it won't turn the aircraft at all. I don't think it's the stabilisation system that is fighting (This is actually greatly moduled, you can really feel it)  my input as it simply feel weird to be able to roll at 20° without translating at all at more than 200km/h
• And of course the auto-hover but known issue. 

Frankly the job done is already top-notch, I will for sure follow the Kiowa release closely.

PS: I'm curious if it would be possible to show the co-pilot display on screen (top left side for example) if you alt + click on it for instance ? Would be a great tool

The Enigma FARPS at Syria are very often at 800+ m asl. If you then Go with Hot-3 plus recon troops (200 kg) you hit 1800 kg load and thats 100 % according to ME. With that you in those conditions with maybe even sand filter attached you reach the power limit. Take the same load at 0 asl and you have good lift at 70 to 80 % torque.

On Enigma I reduce to 35% fuel and even then it's challenging in some spots.

Edited June 12, 2023 by nazradu

[Rogue Trooper]

Very nice FM update.

Very hard getting used to the increased throw of the Cyclic, weaker collective and the large pedal displacement required to fly this bird... but I will learn a new muscle memory on this airframe.

Hover is very nice and controllable, a quick instantaneous right pressure on the cyclic to push the main rotor out of equilibrium and ride the resulting drift is very nice.... almost as good as the Apache.

Cockpit looks fantastic and the moving reflections (due to head movement) on the glazing is superb.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Rogue Trooper

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

On 6/11/2023 at 10:56 AM, fjacobsen said:

Autohover does work.

Ensure that any movement fwd/aft - left/right is zeroed out (use the NADIR).

Also ensure thst V/S is zero.

Activate AP and Hdg hold then Avtivate Autohover.

The Gazelle should now remain stable in a hover.

But it can be twitchy - any control input might get it into instability.

 

Note that there are two rows of CVS and ALV lights that can be toggled - what each mode is doing I don't know.

A more thorough description of thr current AP would be nice.

 

 

You da real MVP.

On 6/9/2023 at 6:14 PM, stalhuth said:

what a crap the new flight module 

The old one was horrendous, something you'd see in ArmA. Time to practice, dude.

[ldang]

8 hours ago, Hiob said:

You need to trim for aerodynamic (ball centered) if you want to reach topspeed. N-T trim won't get you there.

yeah i get it. I have to take my eyes of things for a second to take the screen shot.

however I would also like to point out that the yaw string doesn't agree with the ball. often time when I'm sitting in copilot seat, the string point straight at me (yaw left compare to the air stream) but the ball is centered. In face, it seem to agree more with the doppler indicator (N-T, rather than aerodynamic trim)

Edited June 12, 2023 by ldang

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

Basically at 90% max load it's better, which means about 50% fuel when fully armed. At 100% max load, you could lose altitude and crash when at low speed/transitioning to a hover if not careful, even at sea level areas. As mentioned elsewhere, there seems to be a pedal trim issue and auto slave bug (works and then spins suddenly and stops working). Auto hover works but is WIP. Without getting into the technicalities, I find strange things happen sometimes, like spins, sideways rocking, having to put in lots of right pedal. Might be just me but I guess the new FM will be tweaked for a while. 

[Devil 505]

On 6/2/2023 at 8:53 AM, Polychop Simulations said:

Updated autopilot system

• Airspeed/Altitude hold mode removed for further consideration

• “Auto-collective” removed for further consideration

So no more auto hover/collective?  It still seems to try to engage this when following the old method of coming into a hover.  Just want to make sure I am not wasting my time with auto hover when trying to shoot from the copilot position.  This would imply you damn near need a friend flying while you shoot the hot missiles unless you have it trimmed out extremely well.  

Can you anyone verify this, the only way to stay somewhat in a hover and nose on is to become a master of the trim while acting as the copilot/HOT missile operator?

[karasinicoff]

23 minutes ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

Basically at 90% max load it's better, which means about 50% fuel when fully armed. At 100% max load, you could lose altitude and crash when at low speed/transitioning to a hover if not careful, even at sea level areas. As mentioned elsewhere, there seems to be a pedal trim issue and auto slave bug (works and then spins suddenly and stops working). Auto hover works but is WIP. Without getting into the technicalities, I find strange things happen sometimes, like spins, sideways rocking, having to put in lots of right pedal. Might be just me but I guess the new FM will be tweaked for a while. 

Now Gazelle with poor engine becomes a sight seeing chopper. Never fit in for fights unless AI units on ground. Sucks.

4 hours ago, Rogue Trooper said:

Very nice FM update.

Very hard getting used to the increased throw of the Cyclic, weaker collective and the large pedal displacement required to fly this bird... but I will learn a new muscle memory on this airframe.

Hover is very nice and controllable, a quick instantaneous right pressure on the cyclic to push the main rotor out of equilibrium and ride the resulting drift is very nice.... almost as good as the Apache.

Cockpit looks fantastic and the moving reflections (due to head movement) on the glazing is superb.

 

If you try to cold start and jumping into PVP server, will be noticed this chopper is just  broken and unable to fly. Only for sight seeing.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

1 hour ago, Devil 505 said:

So no more auto hover/collective?  It still seems to try to engage this when following the old method of coming into a hover.  Just want to make sure I am not wasting my time with auto hover when trying to shoot from the copilot position.  This would imply you damn near need a friend flying while you shoot the hot missiles unless you have it trimmed out extremely well.  

Can you anyone verify this, the only way to stay somewhat in a hover and nose on is to become a master of the trim while acting as the copilot/HOT missile operator?

Auto hover is still there but is WIP. You can try it. But releasing auto hover can sent me into a spin at times. Auto collective is gone and might be gone for good, for realism reasons. I hope they can put it back for SP users. Auto speed/altitude is gone for the time being, hopefully to be reworked and put back. A bit of a bummer, like 2 steps forward, 1 step back. I was trialing this module before and after the update so the change was quite stark. While the FM was questionable pre upgrade, things generally worked.  

[Hiob]

14 hours ago, ldang said:

yeah i get it. I have to take my eyes of things for a second to take the screen shot.

however I would also like to point out that the yaw string doesn't agree with the ball. often time when I'm sitting in copilot seat, the string point straight at me (yaw left compare to the air stream) but the ball is centered. In face, it seem to agree more with the doppler indicator (N-T, rather than aerodynamic trim)

 

I'm not 100% sure if trim "ball centered" gives you an airflow straight from ahead. When a regular helicopter is flying in a straight line it crabs due to the side push of the tail rotor and the angled rotor disc. When you trim N-T you're basically flying a curve. (and as usual you won't hit topspeed when cornering ).

However, I don't exactly know if "trimmed aerodynamicly" really gives you exactly straight head wind. 

Would be nice if one of the real chopper drivers could help out here.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Hiob

[idenwen]

I have weid problems with the new flight model. It feels great when flying medium speed but has some spots where controls are going crazy when slow or hovering.

For example: Hover, enter a slow descent and then go back to a ascend while very slowly adding power. The whole chopper moves a bit and tumbles a bit, thats ok and normal, but there are spots in the power courve where it "snaps" like on rails into place or alternates snapping violently betweeen two places about 5° from each other. A bit more power and everyting back to normal.

[Devil 505]

1 hour ago, idenwen said:

I have weid problems with the new flight model. It feels great when flying medium speed but has some spots where controls are going crazy when slow or hovering.

For example: Hover, enter a slow descent and then go back to a ascend while very slowly adding power. The whole chopper moves a bit and tumbles a bit, thats ok and normal, but there are spots in the power courve where it "snaps" like on rails into place or alternates snapping violently betweeen two places about 5° from each other. A bit more power and everyting back to normal.

I am experiencing the exact same thing, which sucks, because the periscope is amazing in VR and I need the pilot to keep the Helo still.  Only way I have managed to work it for the time being is using Trim for both cyclic and rudder.  Still difficult though because I cannot get it to stay in one place without it rolling on me once in auto hover.  I have tried disengaging the trim system when using the auto hover which helps a little, but then you are at the mercy of holding the aircraft nose on with the rudder while in hover without rolling it out of auto hover.  

Not a deal breaker, I want this to be like the real thing and if this is the case, then I am fine with that.  Just wanted to see if others were struggling like I was flying solo and trying to use the missiles now.

[Hiob]

I think the FM, even though it has vastly improved, still needs some polishing. But I'm confident that the developers know that as well and collect data for improvement right now.

[Bashibazouk]

I have a question. Firstly, I know nothing about flying choppers IRL. But after the update, to me the Gazelle is more sluggish and, paradoxically, more twitchy than the Huey. Especially before ETL kicks in. Is this right?

 

Given the range of experiences here, I'm wondering if joystick might be a factor. I have a cheapo HOTAS (T16000 and TCMS throttle plus the pedals that came with the set) but I've managed to find every other chopper's appropriate settings so it feels right enough, so maybe I need to do some experimentation with curves/sat etc.

The old Gazelle felt like an RC toy to me. But I could do plenty of work with it and quite enjoyed myself, as long as I ignored the suspension of disbelief with the UFO elements. But now it feels like a bit of a bus and that if I'm not careful, it's going to spin and drop out of the sky. An underpowered bus at that. Yes, I've reduced weight to 80% in ME and I'm still struggling to take off without the chopper lurching all over the place. Yes, a skill issue no doubt, but I don't have this with any other choppers.

Anyway, the only thing I have to compare to are other modules in DCS and the Gazelle feels to me more like a Hind needing a diet than the Huey. I'd assumed that as the Huey is an early design that it'd feel more underpowered, and the Gazelle would feel like, well, a Gazelle (the animal). One of the reasons I enjoyed the old FM was because it was a bit arcade-y, and although I'd prefer it to be accurate, is it really less nimble than the Huey? 

I'm disappointed if the current power state is going to be the final one.  Apart from the HOT missiles, which are close to unusable for me without autohover, the Huey holds its own for weaponry - it has more rockets although it has no 20mm and feels more fun to fly as a gunship.

I can accept it all if its realistic but I was really hoping for a snappy, nimble gunship-lite for the times I didn't want to drag out the Hind or the Apache.

 

[ldang]

13 minutes ago, Bashibazouk said:

But after the update, to me the Gazelle is more sluggish and, paradoxically, more twitchy than the Huey

while i still find the Gaz more agile and quicker than Huey, it is indeed quite under power. It is however much lighter and has lower disk load (idk how well they are modelled but still) so you will find the Gaz twitchier than other helicopters in DCS

I find the gaz fly best with aggressive collective input and smooth cyclic input.

[Hiob]

28 minutes ago, Bashibazouk said:

I have a question. Firstly, I know nothing about flying choppers IRL. But after the update, to me the Gazelle is more sluggish and, paradoxically, more twitchy than the Huey. Especially before ETL kicks in. Is this right?

 

Given the range of experiences here, I'm wondering if joystick might be a factor. I have a cheapo HOTAS (T16000 and TCMS throttle plus the pedals that came with the set) but I've managed to find every other chopper's appropriate settings so it feels right enough, so maybe I need to do some experimentation with curves/sat etc.

The old Gazelle felt like an RC toy to me. But I could do plenty of work with it and quite enjoyed myself, as long as I ignored the suspension of disbelief with the UFO elements. But now it feels like a bit of a bus and that if I'm not careful, it's going to spin and drop out of the sky. An underpowered bus at that. Yes, I've reduced weight to 80% in ME and I'm still struggling to take off without the chopper lurching all over the place. Yes, a skill issue no doubt, but I don't have this with any other choppers.

Anyway, the only thing I have to compare to are other modules in DCS and the Gazelle feels to me more like a Hind needing a diet than the Huey. I'd assumed that as the Huey is an early design that it'd feel more underpowered, and the Gazelle would feel like, well, a Gazelle (the animal). One of the reasons I enjoyed the old FM was because it was a bit arcade-y, and although I'd prefer it to be accurate, is it really less nimble than the Huey? 

I'm disappointed if the current power state is going to be the final one.  Apart from the HOT missiles, which are close to unusable for me without autohover, the Huey holds its own for weaponry - it has more rockets although it has no 20mm and feels more fun to fly as a gunship.

I can accept it all if its realistic but I was really hoping for a snappy, nimble gunship-lite for the times I didn't want to drag out the Hind or the Apache.

 

I have not yet tried the new Huey FM. Compared to the Hip it feels good to me (the Hip is a powerful beast though, when empty).

Regarding the Hotas. I have a long stick with a heavy head () and rather soft springs. Still I feel the need to put a curve on it. (Y Saturation 90%, Curve 10 on x and y axis).

(I used to have the same Hotas as you and I can hardly imagine flying choppers with it due to the strong re-centering force and short throw. I'd definetely need curves with that stick)

Edited June 13, 2023 by Hiob

[Danzig]

On 6/11/2023 at 5:56 PM, fjacobsen said:

Autohover does work.

Ensure that any movement fwd/aft - left/right is zeroed out (use the NADIR).

Also ensure thst V/S is zero.

Activate AP and Hdg hold then Avtivate Autohover.

The Gazelle should now remain stable in a hover.

But it can be twitchy - any control input might get it into instability.

 

Note that there are two rows of CVS and ALV lights that can be toggled - what each mode is doing I don't know.

A more thorough description of thr current AP would be nice.

 

 

is it still displayed in the crtl+ enter  axisoverlaywindow as it was before when the hover is activated?

[fjacobsen]

36 minutes ago, Danzig said:

is it still displayed in the crtl+ enter  axisoverlaywindow as it was before when the hover is activated?

No - there are no indications - only the 2x2 lights on the Autopilot panel

[Bashibazouk]

Ok. I've improved things no end. It turns out my curves for the original Gazelle FM were very, very flat with a sharp rise at the extremes, I'd forgotten that I'd done that and didn't check with the new FM. The image below shows them how I've adjusted them now, with the red line overlay showing roughly how it was previously. I have User Curve on for this, I don't like setting saturation under 100 for any flight controls, so doing this gives me the same effect, except I still have full extension at the extremes for when I need it. It does require me to generally keep my stick away from the extremes except for emergencies, which rarely happen but I'm used to that. I did this originally for the Spitfire rudder, as I was told to reduce saturation but, again, I didn't like the idea of not having full control for those rare times. 

So, when I changed the curves to be less extreme, the Gazelle FM came into focus on my el cheapo HOTAS. It feels much better now, I don't roll wildly from side to side on takeoff, which I assume was happening as I needed more control, grabbed a fistful of cyclic and veered right into the extremes as the change from a moderate slope to a very steep one is quite sudden if you're not used to it. The whole chopper feels better now, I even get a sense it has more power for some reason. This can't be true, of course, but maybe the new FM is better suited to a more typical curve whereas the older one suited having a very flat main control area.

null

[FlankerKiller]

I'm not a helicopter pilot, and certainly not a Gazelle pilot. But I did some serious testing with this thing and I can say it definitely flies like a DCS chopper now. I have a vary good HOTAS setup so it's not as twitchy to me as others report. I also spend alot of time just flying helicopters in DCS. I didn't really compare it to the Huey, because something with the Huey feels off compared to the other choppers. But I did lots of test. One was to test ground effect and transitional lift. Put the thing in a ground effect hover. Then take your hand off the collective. Fly out of the hover and control altitude and airspeed with just the cyclic. I compared it directly against the Hind. They both behave about the same. You climb out, find an equilibrium airspeed, fly around. Then as you slow down you start to sink. Keep some forward airspeed to manage your sink rate and stay out of VRS and you will decend until you feel the air cushion you as you reenter ground effect. The thing definitely feels like it's a pendulum being suspended under a rotor. And just like the Hind, Hip, Apache it turns on way much better then the other. Left in the case of the Gazelle. It's weird that the cyclic is held the the left. But that is addressed earlier in this thread, and is apparently accurate. I find hovering to be easier then the Apache, because I don't feel like the tail rotor is fighting me the whole time. I do hope that one day they can come up with a Petrovich style Ai for this. Or maybe work a deal with ED. But even as is its usable. Just once you've had that Ai it's noticeably lacking. They say this is the first interation of the new FM. And for basically a new module this thing feels good. 

[Apocalypse31]

New flight model. 

 

Strike 2 on Polychop. 

 

Not better. Just different and more twitchier. 

[Hiob]

6 hours ago, Apocalypse31 said:

New flight model. 

 

Strike 2 on Polychop. 

 

Not better. Just different and more twitchier. 

Yeah, sure buddy. Maybe the problem isn't the new FM - which is regarded a vast improvement by like 95% of all commenters and reviewers? 

What's your point of reference here? Warthunder? 

Edited June 16, 2023 by Hiob

[Moxica]

She's acting like I have spikey pedals. It even has spikes when not moving pedals. Also "negative spikes" as in no effect to some pedal inputs.
This is a pretty serious flaw, and should get a priority quick fix.
-Because this thing is addictive, and that makes me run into this way to often.

 

[kotor633]

Hi,

Well, it was clear that something had to be improved here. Just be happy that there has been an elementary important boost for this module (after years), enjoy it & give Polychop some time to fine-tune 'the screws'.

[Hiob]

1 hour ago, Moxica said:

She's acting like I have spikey pedals. It even has spikes when not moving pedals. Also "negative spikes" as in no effect to some pedal inputs.
This is a pretty serious flaw, and should get a priority quick fix.
-Because this thing is addictive, and that makes me run into this way to often.

 

The sensitivity to pedal input is my biggest issue as well. I usually only have curves on the cyclic, but I may need to thoroughly adjust the curve for the pedals.
I kind of get used to her behavior with practice though.

[Moxica]

5 minutes ago, Hiob said:

The sensitivity to pedal input is my biggest issue as well. I usually only have curves on the cyclic, but I may need to thoroughly adjust the curve for the pedals.
I kind of get used to her behavior with practice though.

I can't imagine me getting used to those sudden and powerful "spikes" out of nowhere.
Especially when she start spinning, and the pedal inputs don't do anything.