Why do you fly FC3?

[kotor633]

Hi,
So far it was the only way to control the Mig-29 (Full Fidelity of the Mig-29 is coming soon, 2 weeks ;-)).

[P1l0t]

You missed those who don't like the clickable cockpit and that's exactly why FC3 is attractive because it's simple, but so detailed that you can still feel like you're in a real airplane! This is a product that needs further thinking and adding more planes!

[Hiob]

1 minute ago, P1l0t said:

You missed those who don't like the clickable cockpit and that's exactly why FC3 is attractive because it's simple, but so detailed that you can still feel like you're in a real airplane! This is a product that needs further thinking and adding more planes!

I would argue, that a clickable cockpit is easier to use than tons of keyboard shortcuts…..

Unless you take a big simplification of systems into account.

But since both can neatly coexist, there’s no harm in fleshing out FC3(4).

Considering the results of the poll, it looks like most of the users like it for the Eagle/Fulcrum/Flanker that are otherwise lacking so far from „hardcore“ DCS, and not for the simplified cockpit. At least that is my interpretation of the numbers.

[P1l0t]

40 minutes ago, Hiob said:

I would argue, that a clickable cockpit is easier to use than tons of keyboard shortcuts…..

Unless you take a big simplification of systems into account.

But since both can neatly coexist, there’s no harm in fleshing out FC3(4).

Considering the results of the poll, it looks like most of the users like it for the Eagle/Fulcrum/Flanker that are otherwise lacking so far from „hardcore“ DCS, and not for the simplified cockpit. At least that is my interpretation of the numbers.

TF-51 bothered me that I had to manage everything with a mouse. I don't have a 3rd hand. What I have to set on the keyboard and use, my other hand is on the joystick.

For example, clickable airplanes want you to press 3 buttons to perform these 3 button presses to, for example, activate a missile.

I press button 2 and turn on the radar, then I look for the air target I want to attack. I don't want to push buttons all the time!

I try to write respectfully, but ED's marketing text often says that clickable planes are better, but they forget about a lot of people who don't like it.

Look, F-5, MiG-15 and F-86 are coming, there is still more aircraft to enter the FC series.

DCS World has to be attractive, not everyone wants to read a 400 page user manual and it's just one aircraft type. If you want to fly another aircraft 400 pages of learning.

We also exist who only love the FC series! The FC series also uses the same PFM, the same radar range, the same detailed missile flight model and operation. Only we don't stand on the ground for 20 minutes to set up the navigation, after 20 minutes we attack the invaders on the front line and defend our country!

We need more planes and more variety in the game!

Edited April 28, 2024 by P1l0t

[Hiob]

More Power to you! As I said, Both can coexist easily. Not my cup of tea, but it doesn’t need to be.

Only problem that may come up at a point from my pov is MP servers. At least competitive ones. Maybe we will see FC3/4 exclusive servers in the future.

[Rifter]

Well, I want to play devil's advocate now…some (not all!) of those who are strong propagandists of a full fidelity clickable cockpit are not always honest to themselves.
Putting important cockpit switches onto the hotas for quick access is nothing more than a kind of Flaming Cliffs-isation of a FF cockpit. Even the usage of joystick gremlin or similar tools for putting macro sequences on one button is not unusual in the DCS online competitive scene.
So the borders are rather fluid and not black and white. Therefore I honestly don’t understand those different camps discussions.

[Ramius007]

I would add abuse of using own plane position on f10 map, despite flying FF planes, or gamma adjustments during night flying, you can flamingcliff your FF module as much as you like, but still use that BS FC3 simplification argument, A2A in all FF modules are as simple or as difficult as in FC3 one, IFF is done by EWR raports on servers, even for friendlies in massage style, so again-0 fidelity, even if you play FF plane

[falcon_120]

Well, I want to play devil's advocate now…some (not all!) of those who are strong propagandists of a full fidelity clickable cockpit are not always honest to themselves.
Putting important cockpit switches onto the hotas for quick access is nothing more than a kind of Flaming Cliffs-isation of a FF cockpit. Even the usage of joystick gremlin or similar tools for putting macro sequences on one button is not unusual in the DCS online competitive scene.
So the borders are rather fluid and not black and white. Therefore I honestly don’t understand those different camps discussions.

I think there is room for everyone.

I am one of those that move buttons to my HOTAS while still a great defender of both FF and FC3. My thought process is the following:

I like FF because it implies replicating the way a system or weapon works, with its full process of clicks and Hotas presses, and normally also with its real limitations, however i also understand the fact that what for a real pilot would be a MFD press or click actuation in a blonk of a second, probably by feel and not taking the hand of the joystick, for us implies taking the hand off, reaching out the mouse and clicking in a very unnatural way. For my specific case i play with VR only, this means its even harder to find a mouse by feel and click whatever button i need to press. I cannot tell you how many times i forgot i was not on the cockpit and tried for a split of a second tp reach out that button i need with my left hand XD, only to realize i cant.


Finally i have little time these days, being a father, so if i really have only 20min and fancy flying in a MP server for some fun, i do like having that FC3 option not including a 8 min INS alignment with all the other procedures like boresighting mavericks etc..

Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk

[Exorcet]

5 hours ago, Hiob said:

I would argue, that a clickable cockpit is easier to use than tons of keyboard shortcuts…..

Unless you take a big simplification of systems into account.

But since both can neatly coexist, there’s no harm in fleshing out FC3(4).

I agree. FF planes usually aren't that complex control wise, but there are exceptions. At the end of the day the designers don't want pilots to be looking down, they want them to be looking out of cockpit to fly and fight. That's the entire point of HOTAS. FF allows you to push keys as FC3 does but also lets you find a switch and click it in the cockpit which is an advantage when it's not clear what key a command is bound to.

I think the true advantage of FC is that it standardizes controls across multiple planes. That's harder to do with FF. There is no "lock on" button, there is TMS up short or Sensor Select down long. Buying the entire pack gives you multiple aircraft that you can jump between with consistent controls and that's how I would sell it to people that are trying to decide between it and FF.

 

4 hours ago, Rifter said:

Well, I want to play devil's advocate now…some (not all!) of those who are strong propagandists of a full fidelity clickable cockpit are not always honest to themselves.
Putting important cockpit switches onto the hotas for quick access is nothing more than a kind of Flaming Cliffs-isation of a FF cockpit.

Controls are about compromise and that will also be the case in a simulator. The ideal controls would be a 1:1 replica cockpit but that's not always practical. I try to replicate the real controls as much as possible, though I don't think that adding a switch to HOTAS controls defeats the point of FF. Some switches are going to be easy to reach in reality. The multilayered switches like the protected gear levels in the MiG-21 and Mirage F1 are difficult to replicate correctly as buttons. In those cases I think combining the commands to lift the guard and the lever at the same time only makes sense because for the real pilot it would be a very simple motion. It's a subjective area that people will approach differently.

Anyway, I don't see a need for camps. FF and FC can coexist and they bring benefits to each other. People have more options now and that's good.

[Tucker Fleming]

I looked down on FC because it wasn't the FF deal the other DCS mods are.  Then a buddy hosted a scenario where guys had to fly Su 27s or MiG 29s.  I picked the 29 thinking I could nail it in 10 minutes.
A week and a half later and with a 116 page guidebook in hand I think I'm starting to get acquainted with it...I definitely underestimated the depth of sim I've been missing.

[diasmon]

It all depends on what you like to do. Do you like to fly the jets? Or do you like to click around the cockpits? I personally want to spend more time flying and less time clicking in cockpits, i am a father, i barely have time for flying and 8mins INS alignment is a waste of time for me (i know about the autostart, but this does not setup all your weapons). The mouse is a far from a perfect alternative. IRL left hand is mostly used to click buttons while the right hand is always on the joystick. In a FF you have to use your right hand to move the mouse... This is far from a perfect "simulation". FC3 gives your ready aircraft, correctly setup for action. 1-navigation, 2-BVR A2A, 3-dogfight A2A, 7-A2G, F-flaps, G-gears, B-airbrake, P-parachute, Enter-lock, Backspace-unlock, i always rebind the target cursor to arrows, etc.  Everything is standardized and roughly clearly binded. For a good keyboard user (and i don't mean in just a gamer way, but a PC user) it's easier to find certain buttons on a keyboard without looking at it (as a IRL pilot would blindly find the button in the cockpit) compared to looking down (and looking away from your point of interest like your target would be) in the cockpit and clicking a button with the mouse in a FF. If the button also has a cover... Well, good luck with that. In conclusion, as long as FC has the same flight model, weapons and systems, then I see to advantage to flying FF. Because FC is not about simplified systems, it is about simplified procedures.

[draconus]

4 hours ago, diasmon said:

In conclusion, as long as FC has the same flight model, weapons and systems, then I see to advantage to flying FF. Because FC is not about simplified systems, it is about simplified procedures.

I can't agree. The systems are either missing or very simplified in FC. You can play pretend with procedures but have no option to do it realistically. There are no modern smart weapons so there's not much to configure either. Even then, it's not like you incessantly click in FF. It's still 99% flying regardless of module quality.

A few points I don't understand how could they be an advantage of FC3:

• The mouse is just one of the input options in FF and it can be placed on the left side too. You can use keybinds, additional panels, voice, hand tracking or even full cockpit - that's on the user.
• If I don't have much time I don't do full cold starts - I use airstart and Instant Action missions.
• Keys may be standarized but you still have to fly and fight differently with any one of the FC aircraft and their systems, while simplified, are also very different.

Covered switches can be problematic, I give you that.

[Cab]

2 hours ago, draconus said:

• The mouse is just one of the input options in FF and it can be placed on the left side too. You can use keybinds, additional panels, voice, hand tracking or even full cockpit - that's on the user.

Point CTRL is a game changer for this. (If you can get one)

Edit: If you’re flying in VR

Edited May 5, 2024 by Cab

[diasmon]

2 hours ago, draconus said:

I can't agree. The systems are either missing or very simplified in FC. You can play pretend with procedures but have no option to do it realistically. There are no modern smart weapons so there's not much to configure either. Even then, it's not like you incessantly click in FF. It's still 99% flying regardless of module quality.

A few points I don't understand how could they be an advantage of FC3:

• The mouse is just one of the input options in FF and it can be placed on the left side too. You can use keybinds, additional panels, voice, hand tracking or even full cockpit - that's on the user.
• If I don't have much time I don't do full cold starts - I use airstart and Instant Action missions.
• Keys may be standarized but you still have to fly and fight differently with any one of the FC aircraft and their systems, while simplified, are also very different.

Covered switches can be problematic, I give you that.

I don't think it is easy for most of us to control the mouse with your left hand and click with precision on something, specially if some head tracking is also involved. (The other options can easily get way over the budget and can cost more that all the FF modules combined XD)

Autostart is a valid option, although in SP i always edit these missions to have a hot start. But in MP servers you can be forced to start cold and Autostart does not set up the weapons for you. We have Mavericks, LGBs and INS/GPS PGMs.

I did not say and I would not want the FC planes to be all the same. The point was that you use the same button for A2A for example, even though each platform might have different systems and capabilities for this mode. 

I agree that you cannot have all the systems and options available in an FC that are available in FF.  It's impossible to do that with a keyboard. But for quick action, you might not need everything click to be modelled in order for it to be fun.

Shooting a maverick is easier in A-10A than it is in F-16 (I do not compare it to A-10CII since I am not familiar with it.)

Another weird comparison: Su-25T with Vikrs vs JF-17 with BRMs. With Su-25T I just press on 7, move the target cursor, lock the target and shoot. For JF-17 I have to enter A2G mode, check master arm on, move your SMS to the bottom MFD (a couple of clicks), setup your TGP on the left MFD so you can see where you are flying while you move the target cursor to your target (no less than 5 clicks), then arm the rockets, find the target, lock and shoot. (In both cases laser turns on when you fire the weapon.) And JF-17 is one of the most intuitive and easy to use modern jets in DCS. I am not sure what is the procedure for APWKS in A-10CII and Harrier, but somehow I doubt it is easier.

And I would want the FC to move forward because this type of "simulation" could give us other iconic jets that are impossible to have as FF in the foreseeable future. Tornado, Gripen, Mirage 2000-5/D, F-111 and century series fighters, Su-24s, J-10. Maybe even jets that never got the chance to be produced in mass like F-16XL and F-20.

Edited May 5, 2024 by diasmon

[MAXsenna]

17 hours ago, diasmon said:

while the right hand is always on the joystick.

Not true. You will never use your left hand on the "right side" panels. It was much easier to tech myself to fly with my left hand, (I do it all the time, while moving the mouse), than I had considered. Don't think it will be really hard to have a second mouse/trackball on the left, IF I can swap the buttons. That will be harder.  

I do agree a lot with both your posts, but as @draconusmentions, the FC systems are very simplified, and not realistically modeled compared to FF.

Cheers! 

[diasmon]

16 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Not true. You will never use your left hand on the "right side" panels. It was much easier to tech myself to fly with my left hand, (I do it all the time, while moving the mouse), than I had considered. Don't think it will be really hard to have a second mouse/trackball on the left, IF I can swap the buttons. That will be harder.  

I do agree a lot with both your posts, but as @draconusmentions, the FC systems are very simplified, and not realistically modeled compared to FF.

Cheers! 

Yeah, i guess this statement was not entirely correct from my part. I should refrase it better. When i think about it, i cannot find a way to simulate a FF entirely as an FC. But FC can be simplified by automating most procedures and leave out things that while are very helpful, are also not essential to fly/fight. What i would care about in a FC module is for the flight model and capabilities of radar/RWR/sensors/etc and weapons to be realistically modelled.

 

 

Edited May 6, 2024 by diasmon

[85th_Maverick]

On 7/11/2023 at 1:31 PM, draconus said:

What is the main reason that you fly Flaming Cliffs 3 aircraft while there are other full fidelity DCS modules with the same or comparable roles?

I have more than 90% of the modules bought (only some useless prop planes are that I haven't bought). I fly the free Su-25T for more than 70% of the time!

You and others may jump replying: "WWHoooo, WAAAAA, WHHYYYY! Cause you are no good at flying DCS planes, cause you this and that!" I just imagine that by experience=))). The reasons are:

1. I find the Su-25T among the most capable CAS while still having SEAD capability which is very important to me. It's more maneuverable than an A-10A/C, not to mention that it's about twice faster than the A-10 for comparable loadout. Yes, I otherwise prefer to fly the F-16 or F-18 which have better ground targeting systems, such as the LANTIRN, compared to the forward only limited LLTV of the Su-25T, yet I most of all prefer the Su-25T over the easier job with the F-16/18 simply because I like it more hardcore with the Su-25T and I'm enormously glad that the Su-25A and Su-25T are available. The same hardcore difficulty I also like sometimes by choosing to take on the A-10A against heavily protected targets which even with the A-10C it's difficult, but I like to try my best with it to see how much I can survive, so for the the A-10A is also fun! The other FC3 airplanes: MIG-29 (which has pitch stability issues when the droops come out and retract) but it's otherwise realistically performing, the Su-27/Su-33/J-11 which have underperforming engines at FULL AB, the F-15C which overperforms in constant turning at high AoA and seems like it's a kid's wonderland in DCS with it's instantly deflecting flight controls and infinite G's of the frame which sometimes can make seem like it's a flying UFO as it jumps allover the place if you use some abrupt stick and rudder inputs at speeds over 1000km/h which can also be a cheat to make most missiles overshoot, are indeed aircraft which are more or less apart from DCS, yet the Su-27 remains a must for it's beauty at least after all and not to forget that IT was the plane which started the Flanker 2.0, later LOCK ON and finally FC1/2/3 series, predecessors of the today's wonderful DCS!

Cheers!

Edited May 15, 2024 by 85th_Maverick

[draconus]

21 minutes ago, 85th_Maverick said:

I have more than 90% of the modules bought (only some useless prop planes are that I haven't bought). I fly the free Su-25T for more than 70% of the time!

You and others may jump replying: "WWHoooo, WAAAAA, WHHYYYY! Cause you are no good at flying DCS planes, cause you this and that!" I just imagine that by experience=)))

It's OK. You just fall into the first category like most of us. Would you still fly FC3 Su-25T if it was available as FF module?

For the FM bugs please make proper bug reports in the appropriate subforums.