reported Spotting dot bugs in VR

[KoN]

I was online last night I don't see any air targets at all . A10 just vanished while strafing the airfield . Nearly impossible for me to track . 

14 hours ago, YoYo said:

No any issue, its great now. The 2.9.6. improved it. Also, you have partially fake and kind of middle system - just use off option if you like.

Please keep those settings, its a lot better now, than before with this fake box dot.

 

 

It is not great YoYo , I don't see any air targets until right on top of me , i can even hear them but don't see them . Please show your settings . ?? 

Too prove a point i went and fired up another combat flight sim cant say the name because well who know ill get a ban again .. cancel culture .

And had no problems looking for targets and finding them and dogfighting in VR . Yet DCS is a walking nightmare FOR ME  .

Question is , So if other sims can get it right why cant DCS. I've been flying since flanker days , been there seen it got the Real T-shirt .

2.9 isn't good its eye candy BS. hell we are down to 7fps in the new menu in VR . 

13 hours ago, Panzerlang said:

I see no dots, just a very tiny plane at max distances (exactly how I think such things would appear in real life). Any further and I wouldn't expect to be able to see a real one. In my opinion the viewing experience is pretty much full-real.

Pimax Crystal.

what settings please . ??? using steam or other . ?? 

Edited July 23, 2024 by KoN

[draconus]

37 minutes ago, KoN said:

other sims can get it right

Or they just made it easier, not realistic.

[falcon_120]

Man its hard to get it right in VR.

The thing is, i feel now the visibility of a aircraft is more realistic when you know where to look and focus. You can see the target at about 12ish nm which seems realistic by all accounts to a fighter sized target. The problem is you can only see them if you know where to look.

2.9.5 dots, which i agree were too big, gave you that peripheral view that we have in reañ ñife where you can perceive moving things, as they stand put against a background. I feel that with the new dots you miss a bit of this and is really hard to see a fighter by chance.

I guess the only perfect solution would be something dynamic in which dots where bigger (like 1.5x) when you're moving your head but are small again when you are scanning the target location so they are not unrealistically big.

Again this seems like the never ending problem...

Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk

[unclesneep]

I could never really tell if improved spotting really did anything with my crystal.. all I know is that right now I can't see squat.  Jester calls out bandit 12 o'clock 4 miles.. and I see absolutely nothing.  

[Panzerlang]

9 hours ago, KoN said:

I was online last night I don't see any air targets at all . A10 just vanished while strafing the airfield . Nearly impossible for me to track . 

It is not great YoYo , I don't see any air targets until right on top of me , i can even hear them but don't see them . Please show your settings . ?? 

Too prove a point i went and fired up another combat flight sim cant say the name because well who know ill get a ban again .. cancel culture .

And had no problems looking for targets and finding them and dogfighting in VR . Yet DCS is a walking nightmare FOR ME  .

Question is , So if other sims can get it right why cant DCS. I've been flying since flanker days , been there seen it got the Real T-shirt .

2.9 isn't good its eye candy BS. hell we are down to 7fps in the new menu in VR . 

what settings please . ??? using steam or other . ?? 

 

Pimax Crystal, Render Quality is set to "Maximum".
DCS Pixel Density is set to "1.0"

Runtime is Pimax XR.
Quadviews.

I don't use the tool tray.

13900k
4090

Be aware, the Pimax software is janky. Every now and then I find the image has turned to dogsht and have to jiggle the Render Quality setting to get hi-rez back.

[KoN]

2 hours ago, unclesneep said:

I could never really tell if improved spotting really did anything with my crystal.. all I know is that right now I can't see squat.  Jester calls out bandit 12 o'clock 4 miles.. and I see absolutely nothing.  

Same I was flying f14 last night in campaign as I gave up on servers . 

I think jester calling out contacts is bugged also . 

9 hours ago, draconus said:

Or they just made it easier, not realistic.

This is a game on all different PC setups so not realistic either .

When your sat in a real cockpit with mark one , then it's realistic.

This is a game for pubic computer. EDIT .

I have DLSS on with no scale if that makes sense . No MSAA 

Edited July 24, 2024 by KoN

[draconus]

From the short tests I did it looks fine.

Best thing - they removed the blobs

F-16, rear aspect, against clear day sky turned to 1 black pixel at 1nm already (that's probably AA job since the wings are so thin), then gets gradually faint up to around 13nm where it gets almost invisible. This is when looking at the target.

In a dogfight with Su-27 no problems.

My current temporary setting: Rift S PD 1.0 DLAA sharpening 0.7

@falcon_120 peripheral vision won't help when scanning for distant target.

[WipeUout]

HMD Pixel size seems to matter quite a bit here.  Low resolution such as the Rift S would have a pixel size between 50 to 60% bigger than a Pimax Crystal.  If the bandit is represented as a simple pixel, lower res HMD will have a much better chance to see it unless the higher resolution HMD has the bandit represented by more than one pixel.  No easy solution to this, so many different HMD resolution out there...

[draconus]

30 minutes ago, WipeUout said:

unless the higher resolution HMD has the bandit represented by more than one pixel

Yes, this is how it should work. Please test the same condition.

When I have the target represented already by 1 pixel your better resolution display can still show target represented by more pixels. This should result in the same visibility but higher resolution should allow you better target attitude/shape recognition.

And on the far end there should be limits implemented to fade out targets no matter how much pixels they still take at higher resolutions or zoomed fov - to adapt the visibility to RL. @BIGNEWY do you know if the team plans to implement such limits or additional effects, like sun glints on distant aircraft?

To all, be advised that AA method and fps can affect the visibility the closer you are to 1 pixel and because of the ghosting movement effect.

[BIGNEWY]

Just now, draconus said:

@BIGNEWY do you know if the team plans to implement such limits or additional effects, like sun glints on distant aircraft?

Im not aware of any plans for that, will mention it to the team however. 

[KoN]

7 hours ago, draconus said:

From the short tests I did it looks fine.

Best thing - they removed the blobs

F-16, rear aspect, against clear day sky turned to 1 black pixel at 1nm already (that's probably AA job since the wings are so thin), then gets gradually faint up to around 13nm where it gets almost invisible. This is when looking at the target.

In a dogfight with Su-27 no problems.

My current temporary setting: Rift S PD 1.0 DLAA sharpening 0.7

@falcon_120 peripheral vision won't help when scanning for distant target.

Arr the good old Rift-S . But this is low res headset but a good one , we need people with high end headsets to test , i will try DLAA  thx . 

Edited July 24, 2024 by KoN

[=DROOPY=]

I have a Pimax Crystal and in my humble opinion, I believe it's quite accurate now.

For examples: I'm able to see the faint silhouette of a MiG-19 against the clouds from a head-on aspect at approx 4-5 miles, *if* I know where I need to be looking. 

The 'heavies' I can spot at 10-12 miles +/-,  if I'm visually scanning diligently. 

"Flying" the Tomcat at 10k and trying to get visual on the maneuvering A-4E sporting the desert camo down low above the NTTR, is *very* challenging. Once I do get him in sight, I don't dare lose him, or I have to get way down low and *hope*I can spot his silhouette against the sky. 

The accuracy of Jester's Bandit callouts in the 2v2 fight are definitely in question for me. Either he's incorrect 1/2 the time, or I'm just that blind.

Anyway....as they say at the real 'Topgun'...

"Lose sight...Lose the fight"

Comparing the same results to my daily occupational experience, I believe it's very accurate in its current state as of 07/24/24.

I'm happy to post a screenshot of my VR settings upon request. 

Edited July 24, 2024 by =DROOPY=
2 bE guuder @T 5peLliNg

[YoYo]

1 hour ago, KoN said:

i will try DLAA  thx . 

As I wrote, DLSS or DLAA is not and cannot be absolutely any benchmark and an accusation that there is a problem or a bug, DLSS itself is a change of settings for the worse (downscaling) in terms of resolution, so it absolutely cannot be a point of objection. This is a degradation of settings that give more FPS at the expense of quality, worse than "default". The comparison can only be made with the lack of AA or MSAA x2 or x4. In each of these cases, the current object vision system works very well.

My settings:

In the goggles I have upscaling with a total true resolution of approximately 3200x2832 pxt (according to OXR Toolkit, limited by FOV) per eye, which gives an image of approximately 6.4K in the goggles. It may be different at different resolutions.

I did test now, Viggen vs MiG-19, result:

I started to see the dot 14,6 nm

14,6 nm = 23.5 km even, so no, no any issue here. Direct resolution, picture from goggles:

Of course, against the background of the ground, it is more difficult to see the target from this distance, but as you can see, it is really good now and there is no this tragic square like before 2.9.6, there is a small pixel that can still be seen (if you dont touch DLSS and DLAA).

Edited July 24, 2024 by YoYo

[RedeyeStorm]

1 hour ago, YoYo said:

As I wrote, DLSS or DLAA is not and cannot be absolutely any benchmark and an accusation that there is a problem or a bug, DLSS itself is a change of settings for the worse (downscaling) in terms of resolution, so it absolutely cannot be a point of objection. This is a degradation of settings that give more FPS at the expense of quality, worse than "default". The comparison can only be made with the lack of AA or MSAA x2 or x4. In each of these cases, the current object vision system works very well.

My settings:

In the goggles I have upscaling with a total true resolution of approximately 3200x2832 pxt (according to OXR Toolkit, limited by FOV) per eye, which gives an image of approximately 6.4K in the goggles. It may be different at different resolutions.

I did test now, Viggen vs MiG-19, result:

I started to see the dot 14,6 nm

14,6 nm = 23.5 km even, so no, no any issue here. Direct resolution, picture from goggles:

Of course, against the background of the ground, it is more difficult to see the target from this distance, but as you can see, it is really good now and there is no this tragic square like before 2.9.6, there is a small pixel that can still be seen (if you dont touch DLSS and DLAA).

 

Well I still have to disagree with you. I do not have a pc that can run either your hmd or your settings. I need DLSS to get an acceptable performance with it in game. But spotting right now is a disaster for my rig. I run a 3080, with a I9-9900K and 32mb ram and the Valve Index. Spotting with the big blocks and disappearing act in between is not optimal but game wise better then what I have now. 
 

As ED also offers DLSS as an option the game needs ‘to work’ with it as well.

[AhSoul]

FWIW I'm no longer seeing the crazy large black square, but instead air targets (e.g. Mig-29) are very small, hard to see dots at around 22nm (I'd need to know where to look for them), and get pretty obvious at around 15nm. This is against blue sky/cloud. Against the ground as a backdrop it would be much harder as I'd expect.

I'm using a Quest3 and MSAA 2x.

Edited July 24, 2024 by AhSoul

[WipeUout]

10 hours ago, draconus said:

Please test the same condition.

See attached mission.  The player is sitting in a F/A-18C, facing 6 planes (MIG-29) at 1, 2, 4, 8, 12 and 16nm.  I start the mssion and press pause immediately.

1 and 2 nm:  Shape

4 and 8 nm: Black dot, similar size

12 nm: Smaller black dot

16 nm: Small grey dot difficult to see

 

I use DLSS Balanced and DLAA.  This is a static test and when things move, you may have more difficulty to see farther targets because of DLSS.  Closer targets are easier to spot because of jet smoke. 

SPOTTING TEST.miz

Edited July 24, 2024 by WipeUout

[Picchio]

Can this setting be put to use in order to improve navigation lights visualization?

I'm not commenting greater distances, but I noticed there is too much of a difference in the way they appear when transitioning in and out of 1 NM.

Specifically: nav lights are discernible and somewhat useful when >1 NM away.

Just when 1 NM is crossed, they become just too small until they become useful again at closer range.

I am using a Quest Pro, resolution set at 3500x3500.

The aircraft in question is the Tomcat, I am not sure if it applies to other modules.

Sorry if off topic.

Edited July 24, 2024 by Picchio

[YoYo]

3 hours ago, RedeyeStorm said:

As ED also offers DLSS as an option the game needs ‘to work’ with it as well.

Here the solution could be new versions of DLSS so nVidia mostly. DLSS drivers are released from time to time, it is worth installing the latest ones, usually there is a newer version of what we have in DCS. Current version is 3.7.2 https://www.techpowerup.com/download/nvidia-dlss-dll/ where in DCS is 3.7. However, I don't use DLSS myself due to distortions, so it's hard for me to say whether there will be any improvement.

[KoN]

Thank you all for this information, shall be testing online this weekend I used DLAA the hind cockpit looks really nice , outside views good a bit of ghosting . Eyes get tired will test more . 

[II.JG1_Vonrd]

19 hours ago, draconus said:

peripheral vision won't help when scanning for distant target.

I humbly disagree. From most historical pilot reports and from my RL experience as a PvtP, the way to ID distant bogies is to have your eyes focused on infinity and scan by quarters. More often than not you will see something in your peripheral vision "out of the corner of your eye" and are then able to focus your gaze. The suggested varying of dot size by being larger when not being directly looked at is interesting. Not sure if it's doable in the game though. 

I also would really like to see sun glints incorporated. The old IL2, as I recall, had this feature and would be realistic from my RL experience.

As for how spotting is post update... I'm glad the Blob is gone. I don't spot at long distance as well as I did with the Blob but mid range is fine. The only issue I have is that some of my squad (mostly with Quest versions of VR) see bogies well before I do. I'm Pimax Crystal Sim with settings to maximize clarity and graphics. Yes, I know that dumbing it down will increase the apparent pixel size, but why spend big bucks and not take advantage of what it has to offer graphicly?

[draconus]

4 hours ago, II.JG1_Vonrd said:

More often than not you will see something in your peripheral vision "out of the corner of your eye" and are then able to focus your gaze. The suggested varying of dot size by being larger when not being directly looked at is interesting. Not sure if it's doable in the game though.

Whatever works for you. My experience with peripheral vision tells me you can find either some movement of clearly visible object or by gazing at one point to better see the one nearby as it somehow improves the contrast of faint spot in the eye (this is actually an amateur astronomer technique for looking at very faint night sky object). None of it helps me find a faint, not moving dot on a horizon. But making it purposely larger is not realistic and goes into cheat territory.

4 hours ago, II.JG1_Vonrd said:

The only issue I have is that some of my squad (mostly with Quest versions of VR) see bogies well before I do.

Interesting. I'd love more details.

Edited July 25, 2024 by draconus

[Qcumber]

6 hours ago, II.JG1_Vonrd said:

More often than not you will see something in your peripheral vision "out of the corner of your eye" and are then able to focus your gaze. The suggested varying of dot size by being larger when not being directly looked at is interesting. Not sure if it's doable in the game though. 

If you use QVFR the aircraft appears as a blurred blob in your peripheral vision. I think this would fit your idea.

Our eyes are set up to have high acuity at the fovea (centre of the retina) for lots of detail. Our peripheral vision is lower Res but is better at picking up moving targets etc. "I saw it out of the corner of my eye". This would suggest that this might be the realistic option. However, it would depend on how "blobby" objects in the peripheral vision are. 

[Werewolf_fs]

@BIGNEWY. The problem with the current dot system in VR is scalability, the higher the resolution implies  less visibility.

With the version of 2.9.5 with QVF at approximately 4200x4300 (App oculus x1.0, oculus tray tools P.D. x1.8 + SS by default of QVF 1.1) the detection was super realistic, you detected it slightly at 16 miles, you saw it at 12-10 and at 4-5 you identified it and it eliminated the distant giant black pixel, without the QVF it could be seen clearly. Now with 2.9.6, at this resolution it is IMPOSSIBLE to see it until you are less than 3 miles away and even then at that distance it is difficult to maintain the tally, I should go down to 3200x3300 to have something similar again.

You need  to scales the spotting dot system  with the resolution or this detection problem will never be solved. I don't know if that is even possible in DCS.

Edited July 25, 2024 by Werewolf_fs

[josef]

On 7/24/2024 at 11:13 PM, YoYo said:

As I wrote, DLSS or DLAA is not and cannot be absolutely any benchmark and an accusation that there is a problem or a bug, DLSS itself is a change of settings for the worse (downscaling) in terms of resolution, so it absolutely cannot be a point of objection. This is a degradation of settings that give more FPS at the expense of quality, worse than "default". The comparison can only be made with the lack of AA or MSAA x2 or x4. In each of these cases, the current object vision system works very well.

My settings:

 

I used your settings and increased the frame rate a bit. But it hardly helps with visualising the aircraft.

I use a Pimax Crystal , 4070ti

Edited July 25, 2024 by josef

[josef]

On 7/23/2024 at 7:38 AM, YoYo said:

No any issue, its great now. The 2.9.6. improved it. Also, you have partially fake and kind of middle system - just use off option if you like.

Please keep those settings, its a lot better now, than before with this fake box dot.

 

Sorry I can't agree with you at all. With 2.9.6, no matter how you tweak it, it's difficult for VR to visually see the aircraft, even if the target is only a few nautical miles away on a clear day. My friends around me who fly DCS with VR agree that 2.9.5 is more realistic.