resolved New spotting is great / New spotting is overcooked feedback thread

[Tippis]

6 hours ago, Magic Zach said:

I wouldn't buy the LOD scaling thing with RCS though that much, because if true they could very feasibly also just make a counter-scaled variable just to cancel out the effect a big LOD has on RCS.

The main reason you shouldn't buy it is because it's bunk. Mod builders who have looked far enough into the code to build actual planes for DCS will tell you as much: RCS is a simple numeric factor. I don't know where they got the idea, but I hope it's just a misunderstanding of what the programmers told them rather than a lame excuse they came up with out of nowhere just to kill the discussion.

The claim also fails on the sheer nonsensicalness of the idea: that you'd be using rendering output to feed back into a sensor simulation, which means the rendering pass must be producing a massively oversampled image to get sufficiently detailed far-beyond-BVR information about how large a contact is, and then discard it all because the player only needs a 4k image, not a 32k one. And which eye is used in VR for this? And let's not forget that this would mean you could use pretty simple code injection to make the model render larger and thus cheat your sensors that way. And alteration you made to the how the game looks would affect how sensors worked.

And for the purpose of this thread, if the rendering result was what determined radar returns, that would mean that planes were rendered at whatever the maximum range is of any of the in-game player radars… so 200nm(ish)? Which in turn means you could theoretically spot planes at that distance with sufficient pixel peeping since they're rendered. Which means this whole discussion about “oh, we shouldn't see planes this well at 10nm” is missing the mark by a factor of 20. We shouldn't be spotting these planes in low-earth orbit!

If that was how DCS worked, they would have to rewrite everything anyway because of how catastrophically stupidly it was made, and in doing so, they'd be able to implement scaling properly without problems. As much as I like rolling my eyes at some of the decisions ED make, I refuse to believe them to be that dumb.

 

If you actually wanted to use the 3D model for RCS and sensor simulation, that would be a fairly trivial matter of geometry and a simple point sample model, and wouldn't use the full LoD anyway. It would be done separately rather than as a pointless burden on the rendering since 99% of the rendering data would be useless for this purpose. And funnily enough, it would have to have an ability to scale that model to account for various radar-observability factors that the 3D model itself can't convey in a speedy fashion. So the argument they offered why we can't have model scaling actually means we need model scaling.

Edited October 6, 2024 by Tippis

[Avenger31]

After all our comments on the response from ED that they are working on it and that we should read the patchnotes, and their further ignoring, my opinion is that the next step is BIGNEWY HAS CLOSED THE TOPIC with the comment AS IT SHOULD BE

[Cab]

12 minutes ago, Avenger31 said:

After all our comments on the response from ED that they are working on it and that we should read the patchnotes, and their further ignoring, my opinion is that the next step is BIGNEWY HAS CLOSED THE TOPIC with the comment AS IT SHOULD BE

So, I'm curious. Considering they proactively wrote in the patch notes that they intend to improve the current spotting dots implementation, what exactly are you (and others here) looking for them to say right now?

[Avenger31]

11 minutes ago, Cab said:

So, I'm curious. Considering they proactively wrote in the patch notes that they intend to improve the current spotting dots implementation, what exactly are you (and others here) looking for them to say right now?

Hotfix -> spotting dots ON/OFF working again

[draconus]

6 minutes ago, Cab said:

So, I'm curious. Considering they proactively wrote in the patch notes that they intend to improve the current spotting dots implementation, what exactly are you (and others here) looking for them to say right now?

I want them to release a hotfix to at least bring back the option "improved spotting dots: off" to work again. Then they can take whatever time they wish to tweak it during next years. Consider it "popular demand" to allow realistic visibility of targets which should be a challenge, not forced on labels as it is now for many.

[Cab]

29 minutes ago, Avenger31 said:

Hotfix -> spotting dots ON/OFF working again

So, it's not talk you want, but action.

Fair enough. 

[SharpeXB]

7 hours ago, PawlaczGMD said:

I agree with ED that the best and easiest way to solve this is to implement device-specific settings.

I’m not sure how this would work given that VR headsets can run different resolutions like you mention above. For everyone that reduces the dot size to try and make it more realistic there will be players who just exploit the system to make larger dots by reducing resolution. I thought the whole point of the improved dots was to eliminate this hack.

[Tippis]

8 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I’m not sure how this would work given that VR headsets can run different resolutions like you mention above.

Because you can compensate for that if you know the physical layout of the headset. That's where the difference lies and unlike with pancake, it's pretty much fixed and is therefore a solvable equation.

8 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

For everyone that reduces the dot size to try and make it more realistic there will be players who just exploit the system to make larger dots by reducing resolution

Fun fact: reducing the dot size doesn't make it more realistic.

9 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I thought the whole point of the improved dots was to eliminate this hack.

No. The whole point of improved dots is to make dots as equitable as possible across different displays and resolutions, with the only uncontrollable factor being how far away a player sits from their monitor, if that's what they use. A related point is to make sure you can no longer spot planes at 40nm like you could before by cranking up the resolution.

[MoleUK]

@BIGNEWY

Just to confirm, dots are still disappearing or not rendering at all at times. Did a flight on ECW PG which had a ton of ground units present, so it's likely the 100 spot bug.

This is going to make it difficult to give any accurate feedback while dots continue to not render properly at all times.

[KoN]

On 9/24/2024 at 6:53 PM, NineLine said:

We have been doing some heavy testing on this and have decided for this upcoming patch to roll back the changes so that we have more time to prepare a system that will adjust the don't based on what headset you are using (or if you are on 2D). We are also looking to see if some options to adjust yourself would make sense as well. We are sorry for the delays on this but trying to test across a broad sample of setups does take time. 

2.9 brought in new shaders and shadows and has severely screwed things up . May look nice on YouTube but reality is no one can see anything. Guns only servers are dead .

Squadrons have collapsed and long time content creator's have stopped.

Roll on vulkan and if you screw this up ED well I think  your feel the blow . 

New combat simulators are coming with full VR support. No point having nice cockpit if you can't see outside . 

[KoN]

On 9/29/2024 at 12:20 AM, Magic Zach said:

Hello, I'm pretty late (34 pages late) to this convo, but why hasn't ED tried scaling LODs instead of the simple black 2D pixel method DCS does now?  There's other games that already do this, and it works.  You also still get to see the color of the plane/vehicle you're looking at (since the pixel dot just makes everything black), and you also get profile detail (because the model shape is better than a square pixel).  Plus you can see the contact size change depending if the plane is flying toward/away from you, or perpendicular, or at its largest, perpendicular and in a bank, making the contact very easy to see.  Versus the 2 dimensional pixel ED seems so adamant to use.

Use size scaling LODs!

 

Because some say it's not realistic. 

DCS is old game engine made it look nice but didn't develop for 2016 computer. They are hard at work making train sets and pilot body and cows and sheep . But miss the real problems or close eyes and ears and see nothing here , lol . 

[SparrowLT]

I was at engigma's couple times.. still dont see those big fat dots you talk about.. enemy jets still are invisible head on at 2 to 5nm ... i still saw a F-5 just dissapear ahead of me less than 2nm away heading ahead..

really cant see those big far dots you protest about anywhere

[KoN]

On 9/29/2024 at 12:30 AM, SharpeXB said:

I think the other game where this “works” does a very subtle scaling at large distances so the effect isn’t so egregious. There’s another game that takes this to an extreme and applies a scaling factor of something like 2x at 3 miles. The former might work but the latter would look a bit ridiculous. The game with egregious scaling is probably why so many DCS players have trouble spotting as they’ve become accustomed to other aircraft being drawn so large. 

No offense sharp but are you a pilot ,  sat in any cockpit in real life flying . Or landed gliders or push props , sat in c130 or sat in any helicopter flying low level , sat for hours  in cockpits night time or day time . Watching the world gone by , in real life . Not 2D . The human eye is remarkable , but I don't see <profanity>e in DCS in VR .

2D yes I see you coming over that hill . Nice black dot . 

42 pages and counting . 

[SharpeXB]

5 minutes ago, KoN said:

No offense sharp but are you a pilot ,  sat in any cockpit in real life flying . Or landed gliders or push props , sat in c130 or sat in any helicopter flying low level , sat for hours  in cockpits night time or day time . Watching the world gone by , in real life . Not 2D . The human eye is remarkable , but I don't see <profanity>e in DCS in VR .

2D yes I see you coming over that hill . Nice black dot . 

42 pages and counting . 

You don’t have to be a pilot to understand what the world actually looks like nor to read all the studies about aircraft visibility that are constantly cited in these discussions. Being a RW pilot has nothing to do with this issue. And almost everyone in the world has been on an airplane and looked out the window.

It’s amazing you say you couldn’t see anything before the patch and still can’t see anything after it. It’s possible you need to get an eye exam  Or your VR headset is defective. 

Edited October 6, 2024 by SharpeXB

[Nodak]

Using your eyes is reality, looking at a game no matter through what means will never make that simulation real.  So what other games do to make their games relevant in sales and popularity does matter.    

[KoN]

17 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

You don’t have to be a pilot to understand what the world actually looks like nor to read all the studies about aircraft visibility that are constantly cited in these discussions. Being a RW pilot has nothing to do with this issue. And almost everyone in the world has been on an airplane and looked out the window.

It’s amazing you say you couldn’t see anything before the patch and still can’t see anything after it. It’s possible you need to get an eye exam  Or your VR headset is defective. 

 

So no pilot and no VR  headset , come on mate it's time to hang your gloves up .  You put up a good fight but it's over , time to retire.  just like me let it go , let it go , ..... LoL  

Edited October 6, 2024 by KoN

[SharpeXB]

3 minutes ago, KoN said:

So no pilot and no VR  headset , come on mate it's time to hang your gloves up .  

Being a RW pilot has totally nothing to do with this discussion. And this thread isn’t specifically about VR

5 minutes ago, Nodak said:

Using your eyes is reality, looking at a game no matter through what means will never make that simulation real.  So what other games do to make their games relevant in sales and popularity does matter.    

Other games can be arcade games that just do tricks to make all the aircraft easily seen for the sake of “fun”. DCS has labels for that style of gameplay if that’s what you’re looking for. 

Edited October 6, 2024 by SharpeXB

[KoN]

21 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

You don’t have to be a pilot to understand what the world actually looks like nor to read all the studies about aircraft visibility that are constantly cited in these discussions. Being a RW pilot has nothing to do with this issue. And almost everyone in the world has been on an airplane and looked out the window.

It’s amazing you say you couldn’t see anything before the patch and still can’t see anything after it. It’s possible you need to get an eye exam  Or your VR headset is defective. 

 

Not updated to new patch , not been playing DCS . I'm replying to quotes. And I hear the new patch has gone back to big black blobs . Which no one likes . 

Edited October 6, 2024 by KoN

[SharpeXB]

24 minutes ago, KoN said:

And I hear the new patch has gone back to big black blobs . Which no one likes

Yep. They broke the game thanks to the comments of the 3-4 people who still couldn’t see anything Eventually ED should realize that no matter what they do there will be a segment of players who will not be able to see small objects on their screen, either due to eyesight or screwed up hardware or settings. 

50 minutes ago, KoN said:

No offense sharp but are you a pilot ,  sat in any cockpit in real life flying

I’m sitting in a window seat on a plane right now so I have all the real world qualifications necessary to participate in this discussion
Cheers

Edited October 6, 2024 by SharpeXB

[MoleUK]

1 hour ago, SparrowLT said:

I was at engigma's couple times.. still dont see those big fat dots you talk about.. enemy jets still are invisible head on at 2 to 5nm ... i still saw a F-5 just dissapear ahead of me less than 2nm away heading ahead..

really cant see those big far dots you protest about anywhere

ECW Suffers badly from the 100 dot bug so you don't get the dots at all there sometimes. Try it on other busy servers and you don't always see the same problem.

Until the bugs that make dots de-render are fixed, people are not going to see the same things on their systems.

Edited October 6, 2024 by MoleUK

[Tippis]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Being a RW pilot has totally nothing to do with this discussion.

It has to do with your ignorant claim that the problem is with people having bad eyesight. Setting aside that we've proven definitely what you base this claim on (the fact that you don't know how things should look, even in pancake mode) that whole non-argument falls flat when someone who has demonstrably and provable good eyesight comes along and says the issue exist and is device-dependent. It has nothing to do with their eyes.

 

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

And this thread isn’t specifically about VR

No, but VR is where the bulk of the problem currently exists and is thus of particular interest for this thread.

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Other games can be arcade games that just do tricks to make all the aircraft easily seen for the sake of “fun”.

…and DCS is infamous for going the opposite direction and ironically create very similar results: it uses no tricks, just geometry, and this causes the game to be very fun for those who benefit from this setup and who expect it to be the norm. In actuality, it's not only ridiculously unrealistic, but it is also inequitable in that their “fun” is created in direct opposition to others' fun. And they are just as entitled to theirs in this game. Because that's what it ultimately is: a game.

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Yep. They broke the game thanks to the comments of the 3-4 people who still couldn’t see anything

No. They tweaked the game thanks to the many many many many comments of people who could trivially prove that the way spotting worked in DCS was fundamentally broken and unrealistic. This in spite of the comments of 3–4 people who still couldn't understand that the excessive visibility they were seeing was not universal and was not how things were supposed to look.

You know very well who the other 2–3 are…

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

I’m sitting in a window seat on a plane right now so I have all the real world qualifications necessary to participate in this discussion.

Quite the opposite, actually.

[SparrowLT]

Jumped on enigma.. went to find some enemies or allies close enought..

 

This is an example.. in this picture ther is a Viggen 2.5m away.. you can see it on radar its dead ahead same altitude

 

 

 

 

 

In the third picture there is suposed to be a MIG-21 within 5nm about same altitude arround ahead..not much devation from HUD   (shortly after in 4th picture merge..i dont know if whats on 4th its the 21 or a Viggen that was nearby that ended up shacking the 21)

Edited October 6, 2024 by SparrowLT

[Parkour]

I'm not a 1k forum poster like some here. I just started posting about this issue a week ago as I play in VR and do not have a Pimax headset. The new "Improved" Spotting Dots has ruined the sim for me as I can't stand how they look. The broken OPTIONS > GAME PLAY ability to turn off these spotting dots is the biggest disappointment and the lack of acknowledgement the feature is broken by ED, especially the insulting post by @BIGNEWY that we should "read the patch notes again" signals to me that ED has no interest in listening to their customers and are one of those companies that sees them as complaining idiots.

They have definitely lost sales from me as I already own most maps and most of the US aircraft and was planning on the Chinook, F-15E and Kola map. These are no longer planned purchases.

I will invest my time and future in other currently available flight sims that don't have this issue and treat their customer base and developer community a bit better as I recently learned about the whole issue with RAZBAM. Throw in the entire "we have partnered with Pimax" and here is a discount code to buy one, you quickly realize the entire Spotting Dots issue and "get a Pimax and the spotting dots issue is fixed" is more than just a coincidence.

Just a sad example of hubris and a developer that has lost the passion for its user base.
 

Edited October 7, 2024 by Parkour

[Midair]

11 minutes ago, Parkour said:

I'm not a 1k forum poster like some here. I just started posting about this issue a week ago as I play in VR and do not have a Pimax headset. The new "Improved" Spotting Dots has ruined the sim for me as I can't stand how they look. The broken OPTIONS > GAME PLAY ability to turn off these spotting dots is the biggest disappointment and the lack of acknowledgement the feature is broken by ED, especially the insulting post by @BIGNEWY that we should "read the patch notes again" signals to me that ED has no interest in listening to their customers and are one of those companies that sees them as complaining idiots.

They have definitely lost sales from me as I already own most maps and most of the US aircraft and was planning on the Chinook, F-15E and KIOA map. These are no longer planned purchases.

I will invest my time and future in other currently available flight sims that don't have this issue and treat their customer base and developer community a bit better as I recently learned about the whole issue with RAZBAM. Throw in the entire "we have partnered with Pimax" and here is a discount code to buy one, you quickly realize the entire Spotting Dots issue and "get a Pimax and the spotting dots issue is fixed" is more than just a coincidence.

Just a sad example of hubris and a developer that has lost the passion for its user base.
 

I totally agree with you.

[PawlaczGMD]

1 hour ago, Parkour said:

I'm not a 1k forum poster like some here. I just started posting about this issue a week ago as I play in VR and do not have a Pimax headset. The new "Improved" Spotting Dots has ruined the sim for me as I can't stand how they look. The broken OPTIONS > GAME PLAY ability to turn off these spotting dots is the biggest disappointment and the lack of acknowledgement the feature is broken by ED, especially the insulting post by @BIGNEWY that we should "read the patch notes again" signals to me that ED has no interest in listening to their customers and are one of those companies that sees them as complaining idiots.

They have definitely lost sales from me as I already own most maps and most of the US aircraft and was planning on the Chinook, F-15E and KIOA map. These are no longer planned purchases.

I will invest my time and future in other currently available flight sims that don't have this issue and treat their customer base and developer community a bit better as I recently learned about the whole issue with RAZBAM. Throw in the entire "we have partnered with Pimax" and here is a discount code to buy one, you quickly realize the entire Spotting Dots issue and "get a Pimax and the spotting dots issue is fixed" is more than just a coincidence.

Just a sad example of hubris and a developer that has lost the passion for its user base.
 

ED made spotting work on Pimax devices and this causes you to boycott DCS because it must be a conspiracy/cash grab?   

1 hour ago, SparrowLT said:

Jumped on enigma.. went to find some enemies or allies close enought..

 

This is an example.. in this picture ther is a Viggen 2.5m away.. you can see it on radar its dead ahead same altitude

 

 

 

 

 

In the third picture there is suposed to be a MIG-21 within 5nm about same altitude arround ahead..not much devation from HUD   (shortly after in 4th picture merge..i dont know if whats on 4th its the 21 or a Viggen that was nearby that ended up shacking the 21)

 

What is your hardware/res here? 

1: barely visible at 2.5 nm, looks legit

2: I see nothing

3: clearly visible above you, no spotting dot rendered at this close distance

 

This looks perfectly fine to me.