Full fidelity tanks

[Wychmaster]

When ED started adding more helicopters like the Hind and Apache to the sim, some of us started speculating that the ground units (and Combined Arms) will get some love again so that the action close to the ground gets more interesting for those who like to stay below tree top level. Some (me included) also hoped to get full fidelity vehicle modules in some distant point in the future. 

According to this post, ED is finally starting to consider it:

 

 

What do you think about it? How much would you pay for a FF Abrams, Leopard 2, T-72, you name it?

Me personally, I think this would be a great addition to the sim and would also attract a new group of players. I also think, that the modules would/could/should be relatively cheap and fast to develop when compared to aircrafts. The systems aren't as complex and there is no complicated flight model that needs to be calibrated.

Playing in a multi-crew capable tank (mostly gunner and commander) in VR would be totally awesome. However, I also think that you should have the option to control a full tank platoon and switch between vehicles via keybindings instead of going to the F-10 map or the "choose slot" menu because you will probably die faster and more often than in a jet or helicopter.

So what do you think?

[Tom Kazansky]

I'd definitely pay for an anti-air-capable vehicle. The more range the better.

[Silver_Dragon]

Although the design of a tank was "easier" (it has been seen that designing something in DCS World has never been easy).

I think the problem would come from various technologies related to the engine and then the problems derived from each module.

- The lack of realistic driving physics, in itself, right now any vehicle is more than a box that moves.
- A substantial improvement to the concept of terrain on maps, including making it appropriate for vehicles and different surfaces, including traction effects.
- The lack of driving physics with wheels and/or tracks... totally different systems, and let's not talk about whether the systems are direct transmission or 4x4, 6x6, 8x8, etc.
- All vehicles must be multiplayer, for two or more occupants, that could greatly complicate the development, since a tank has at least 3-4 controllable positions and large cabins, larger than that of a fighter plane.
- Create from scratch a "damage model" for vehicles and armor physics (the armor of a tank from WW2 is not the same as from the Cold War, or modern).
- Aiming sight systems and everything related to fire control systems.
- Multiple ammunition within a vehicle, its management and appropriate effects.
- The problem of finding sources "open" enough to create certain vehicles and/or Tanks. Let's not talk about licenses anymore.
- That all tanks/vehicles have AI crews by default, wanting to be a tank commander is not the same as wanting to be a driver.
- Improve the multiplayer system to have all positions available with the appropriate functionality. And of course, the hatch opening/closing system and use of exterior/interior weapons.
- Diferente vehicles (Tank, IFV/APC, Trucks, Air Defense, Artillery, ect), can be diferent develop problems.

Other side problems.
- Create crews with the new physics technology for infantry. Here it would be a priority, since in the case of surviving the damage and/or destruction of a vehicle, we should have an FPS system (with all the associated problems).
- Ability to transport crews as passengers in other vehicles.... or helicopters and airplanes (the dreamed SAR / Transport).

Edited November 13, 2023 by Silver_Dragon

[scoobie]

Sounds a bit like science fiction, but if you're just asking a simple question "Would you like a Hi-Fi tank?", no ifs no buts, then the answer is SURE I WOULD! Planes, tanks, warships (surface, subs) and all that stuff - yes, of course.

On the other hand, I feel obliged to confess I've always been into science fiction in general, and I suspect this might have influenced my answer to an extent I mean... ED seem to have their plates full with aircraft and core game, so I can't see who and when would make such tank module. Now, if you modified your question and asked "Would you like your Hi-Fi tank even at the expense of development slowdown of aircraft or aircraft-related core game features?", then the answer would be no.
I'm sure the very name of DCS indicates ED's ambitions (combat is air, but also ground and water), but so far it is what it is - a flight sim.

Maybe if some tank nerds set up a 3rd party company and got down to making such module, or modules (tanks, SAM vehicles, IFVs and similar) - that could work. Maybe.
Immediately after the realease of the first such module (let's say it happened), people would start asking questions about "the envrionment", assets, what exactly you can do with such tank in DCS, how AI behaves, why buildings and such don't look as good as in other combat-like games etc. etc., so I think it's a broader discussion than just making a tank module. A discusion at the verge of sci-fi. I'd love to be proven wrong, though!

In a dream world, DCS would be air, sea, and ground, but if it can't become this without sacrificing the air part, I wouldn't like that, simply because DCS today is too good (though not perfect) a flight sim to get "dragged down" by side topics. These are all personal opinions, mind you.

Heck, maybe Sonalysts will release "Dangerous Waters 2" one day? I wish.

 

[Silver_Dragon]

14 minutes ago, scoobie said:

On the other hand, I feel obliged to confess I've always been into science fiction in general, and I suspect this might have influenced my answer to an extent I mean... ED seem to have their plates full with aircraft and core game, so I can't see who and when would make such tank module. Now, if you modified your question and asked "Would you like your Hi-Fi tank even at the expense of development slowdown of aircraft or aircraft-related core game features?", then the answer would be no.
I'm sure the very name of DCS indicates ED's ambitions (combat is air, but also ground and water), but so far it is what it is - a flight sim.

...

In a dream world, DCS would be air, sea, and ground, but if it can't become this without sacrificing the air part, I wouldn't like that, simply because DCS today is too good (though not perfect) a flight sim to get "dragged down" by side topics. These are all personal opinions, mind you.

...

 

Let's remember that back in 2012, DCS World was published as a land-sea-air simulator. CA itself should have been the door to open to ground modules, but it remained a command system, a very poor representation of vehicles and nothing more. Let us remember that Wags, many years ago, asked for references and data on the interiors of an M1 Abrams tank, so I don't think that about making land vehicles is something that appeared yesterday, rather, something that has been left in the drawer taking dust. And of course, the lack of a exclusively dedicated vehicle team.

Regarding the naval modules, as I already put in another post, are missing all the building blocks, although the Supercarrier is being a small "step" in that direction. Everything else is missing, including a working Bridge / CIC.

[WinterH]

Hi-fi tanks were kinda-sorta teased about for more or less a decade now I think, with Wags entertaining the idea in interviews and such as far as I can recall.

I have mixed feeling about this. On one hand I'd definitely prefer the efforts and resources to be dedicated to making DCS the best it can be as a flight and air combat simulator, and it sure has lots of roads to thread there, with long standing issues and/or new things that be introduced. On the other hand, a proper tank sim is something I'd love to explore, and Steel Beast is too expensive.

If this is more of an "avenue for revenue", in light of number of crowd-pleaser aircraft that are feasible to develop drying up, I'd actually be kinda mad about it. There are many cool aircraft, cooler than them modern popular boys  I'd rather get their sims to a DCS standard rather than getting tank sims in DCS engine.

I'm sure DCS can model individual ground vehilces to an amazing degree no problem, but the environment they exist to fight in is, lacking to say the least, with ground AI being just sad, and infantry being a token presense at most. They almost work well enough for us being pilots, but for a tank sim, environment would feel hollow in my opinion.

Guess we'll see.

Having said all that, I would enjoy some proper sims of modern-ish or old tanks alike. Though, mid to late cold war and ww2 would be the best focuses again imo, because they'd fit better with existing and upcoming aircraft modules.

[DD_Friar]

What about starting with the World War II tanks? I know "IL2 Sturmovik Tank Crew" already occupies this space (it is why I came to DCS in the first place when IL2 seemed to stagnating and I wanted to see what was on offer as a few of my squad mates were already flying DCS) but DCS offers far more varied units that are already drivable.

I have often felt that even in IL2 which does have multi-crew for the tanks (which has been a lot of fun) and also very detailed interiors (not clickable but nice eye candy) Once you have looked at them and said "nice" the rest of the mission is played as either Commander (standing up out of the turret) or as gunner (looking down the gunsight) or driving (either with head out the hatch or looking through the letter box) so is not required.

For playing tanks in DCS I would at least like;

1. A commanders position, a drivers position and a gunners position. Lets not worry about multi-crew just yet. When in wwII units the modern binocular features are not included of course.

2. shrubs that do not stop a tank in its tracks. Ideally trees as well but even IL2 Tank Crew still has this issue.

[draconus]

On 11/13/2023 at 11:44 AM, scoobie said:

Now, if you modified your question and asked "Would you like your Hi-Fi tank even at the expense of development slowdown of aircraft or aircraft-related core game features?", then the answer would be no.
I'm sure the very name of DCS indicates ED's ambitions (combat is air, but also ground and water), but so far it is what it is - a flight sim.

I wouldn't worry about hurting aircraft side of DCS by adding more detailed vehicle simulation. Among TOP 5 wishlist requests are ATC, DC and AI improvements. While vehicles would need their own radio system to keep contact with other units/commanders/HQ, the DC and AI is all about ground units impovements, like pathfinding, threat reactions, attack profiles... you know, more I into AI. This stays in line with attack aircraft drivers' wishes. They're no longer happy with pounding stationary targets.

[PawlaczGMD]

Would I like hi-fi tanks? Sure. Would I pay $60 for each? Maybe, but I doubt it.

Most of all, I would like to get more realistic AI and damage models for ground units, so let's just start with that. 

I'm afraid the hi-fi ground units would not sell well, and detract from other development, which is needed. The DCS engine is not really built for this, the ground units are extremely rudimentary. It would be a huge jump to go straight to hi-fi realism.

I'm not sure if tanks are a good fit here, as they are inherently multicrew and have quite strict division of roles... Would you be happy being just the driver? Or just the gunner? Or just the commander? I don't think the ground war is nowhere deep enough to make this rewarding. 

With the focus of DCS on flight, I think tank players would have their day ruined by being killed by airplanes out of nowhere. The balancing works better in more casual games like WT, where player bases are large, and you can quickly respawn after death for instant action. If I drove the DCS tank for miles just to be blown up be a Maverick, I'd probably rage quit after a few attempts. I don't think the player base willing to pay for this is there. 

The idea of a combined arms realistic battleground is really awesome though! But I think smaller steps towards this are a better choice. 

[Apocalypse31]

It would be nice to even have partial functionality for tanks.

 

Currently, the thermal imagers just don't work, so basically driving modern tanks (with incredible thermal imaging packages!) around like WW2 tanks that only have day sights.