UK Aircraft, Classified Status and Systems Modelling?

[rkk01]

Both a wish list item and a clarification question…

Post-war UK aircraft are reported to be notoriously difficult for DCS due to blanket security classifications imposed by the UK Govt - see this depressing thread about the Sea Harrier FRS1 and the Blue Fox / Blue Vixen radar systems. Obviously the Sea Harrier should be a key aircraft for the South Atlantic map…

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/221201-wip-shots-of-the-frs1-sea-harrier/page/4/#comments

My wish list item / clarification question would be - why should this be an absolute block???  Surely there should be room for educated approximation of system’s performance??

 

It seems like we will struggle to get a Sea Harrier, Tornado, Jaguar, UK Phantoms etc…

… yet we will soon be able to take to the virtual skies in a EF Typhoon, presumably with Iris-T and Meteor.  These modern systems MUST be based on limited published data and a suite of developer assumptions

and, of course we have all / most of the 4th gen jets in the US arsenal 

 

[Vampyre]

Well, you should be getting a German Tornado from Aviastorm, and Heatblur will be bringing a naval Phantom (possibly an F-4J/S) to DCS in a few years. Just throw some third party skins on them and voila... they are still not British. With some luck maybe someone will do a French Jaguar as well... The French do seem to be better in this regard with a Mirage 2000C (with technical support from the AdA) and four versions of the Mirage F1 in the digital museum that is DCS. Razbam had indicated the possibility of future development of a Mirage 2000-5, Mirage 2000D and the Mirage IIICJ as well. Just tell the MOD that they are being bested by the French... that ought to get the gears moving.

[rkk01]

Quote

Just tell the MOD that they are beingbested by the French... that ought to get the gears moving.

[Xilon_x]

what is the difference? FSE1----FA2.

 

and i prefer the top of record of helicpter from uk 

[Northstar98]

4 minutes ago, Xilon_x said:

what is the difference? FSE1----FA2.

FA.2 primarily has a much improved radar (Blue Vixen - which also has AIM-120 compatibility), replacing the pulse-only Blue Fox radar of the FRS.1

[Xilon_x]

and THIS? is the fantastic surprise from england.

[Mr_sukebe]

It's interesting that the French, German and Spanish don't mind so much.

Makes me wonder if the Indians would let us have data on the Sea Harrier, and the south Africans data on the Buccaneer.

[Xilon_x]

36 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

FA.2 primarily has a much improved radar (Blue Vixen - which also has AIM-120 compatibility), replacing the pulse-only Blue Fox radar of the FRS.1

I was reading that FRS 2 has improved air-to-air capacity and a more powerful engine than the FRS1--- however I read that there was an attempt to sell it not only to India but also to the USA. to Argentina and Australia but without success who knows if Australia may have information about it. The aircraft participated in the Falklands War, the Gulf War and also the Yugoslav War.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

11 hours ago, Mr_sukebe said:

the French

Well, there's still a reason we have a "M2000C" instead of a "Mirage 2000C"  

[F-2]

Try the national archives instead. I’ve known people to get Tornado F3 documents from there for example. Both incarnations of the Sea Harrier would be great for DCS.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=Sea+harrier&_sd=1979&_ed=2023&_hb=

Edited November 22, 2023 by F-2

[rkk01]

On 11/21/2023 at 12:08 PM, Xilon_x said:

The aircraft participated in the Falklands War, the Gulf War and also the Yugoslav War.

The Sea Harrier is also the second most successful jet fighter in history…. (if you use the very narrow definition of Kill : Loss stats

It absolutely deserves its place in DCS

[Xilon_x]

yes yes ok great credit to England for your HARRIER project, great plane on DCS.....even if the invention of the first vertical take-off in the world is due precisely to YUGOSLAVAIA, in particular CROATIA where NIKOLA TESLA was born.

 

[Gunfreak]

British doesn't want Ameican simmers to get info on their planes. So they can't defend against the British when the AWI part 2 starts in 2029.

[Xilon_x]

 

the ENGLISH people are right to defend their KNOW-HOW we know very well that American spies are everywhere even here in Italy there are many of them they copy everything and at all levels... industrial level cultural level central information level and level... ..I don't know if it's a positive or negative thing if the Americans know everything and have infiltrated everything, certainly they defend us from wars and we have them to thank. but they don't sell their F-22 to Italy or to the English because it is a classified plane.

[Mr_sukebe]

The F22 thing is nothing new.

After all, the Tizard mission convinced the US to develop the atomic bomb, and then assisted the US.  The theory being that we (US and UK) would share the technology.

1945 turns up and Truman says “no chance”.  Lovely…

[joey45]

So the Brits that helped the US create the bomb came back and used their knowledge to create the Brit bomb. 

[Xilon_x]

the atomic bomb is also the result of research of the Italian contribution, let's not forget the italian scientist ENRICO FERMI, we Italians were forbidden by the Americans from building the Italian atomic bomb, years have passed now and the Italian nuclear arsenal is completely controlled by the United States. this is the photo of the Italian atomic bomb.

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Xilon_x

[AddyRazz]

On 11/25/2023 at 10:04 PM, rkk01 said:

The Sea Harrier is also the second most successful jet fighter in history…. (if you use the very narrow definition of Kill : Loss stats

It absolutely deserves its place in DCS

It was such a beautiful bird and such amazing technology for its time.

[Xilon_x]

Sea HARIER FALKLANDS

Seires

 

AUSTRALIA

INDIA

[BIGNEWY]

folks please stay on topic to the thread title. 

thank you

[Xilon_x]

QUESTO È INGLESE falco di mare con una bomba atomica   Progetto segreto WE.177 . 

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by Xilon_x

[rkk01]

3 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

folks please stay on topic to the thread title. 

thank you

I suppose there are two linked questions here…

1). What requirements do ED specify (internally and to 3rd party devs) for data / model integrity… and no, I wouldn’t expect that sort of stuff to be shared publicly.  But the level of “leeway” or latitude that is available to each development team may result in some devs being “able to” vs others being “reluctant to”, or some aircraft being modelled and some not.  ED must have a hand in specifying where simulation ends and magical thinking begins…. WW2 aircraft with no flight data, flying examples or SMEs are clearly difficult.

2).  Where elements of an aircraft’s / systems’ performance is classified, some level of extrapolation to fill in the gaps must surely be acceptable…? Compared to the WW2 examples, modern aircraft must have datasets, or where classified, sufficient real world “insight” to develop a suitably realistic workaround - most modern aircraft have former pilots, crew etc to verify assumptions made (not to share data that may put themselves in legal jeopardy, but to give a yes that feels right / no that feels wrong)

Clearly, my own personal motivation is largely focused on the Sea Harrier FRS1, which would be brilliant (necessary) to take the the virtual South Atlantic skies - but same applies to Jaguar, Tornado, Lightning, UK Phantoms etc.

 

[Mars Exulte]

On 11/21/2023 at 5:49 AM, Mr_sukebe said:

It's interesting that the French, German and Spanish don't mind so much.

Makes me wonder if the Indians would let us have data on the Sea Harrier, and the south Africans data on the Buccaneer.

 No, because those are still British aircraft. Remember all this stuff with Ukraine and F-16s? Denmark, Poland, and others expressed a willingness to transfer aircraft PENDING US EXPORT APPROVAL. It's gonna be the same for everybody approximately. 

[rkk01]

8 hours ago, Mars Exulte said:

 No, because those are still British aircraft. Remember all this stuff with Ukraine and F-16s? Denmark, Poland, and others expressed a willingness to transfer aircraft PENDING US EXPORT APPROVAL. It's gonna be the same for everybody approximately. 

Which also kind of makes my point…

The Danish F-16A and B are Block 1, 10 and 15 models, with MLU upgrades, whereas we have a block 50 F-16C in DCS…

If these 1980s era Vipers are still subject to sensitivity, then it stands to reason that the DCS modelled Block 50 F-16C would also be.  Radar, avionics, missile performance in DCS are going to be “best estimates”, approximations, a facsimile to provide a convincing in-game experience.

I fully agree, anyone and everyone will face the same constraints(*), so why is it more of a block on UK aircraft to make any such “assumptions”

(*) notwithstanding Russia with their harsh criminal code on this

[Xilon_x]

do you remember this in DCS? so you think the English are such assholes? I don't think so....I think this plane is very important for the English and represents their nation and their aerobatic team, the RED ARROWS which are the second in the world after the Italian tricolor arrows.