Carrier landing, the turn to final, need tips and tricks please :) case 1.

[macedk]

Hi all. 

I struggle with last turn to final. The last 180 turn. 

Height I can deal with but it is the site picture I don't get (I think). 

I know when to start the turn and 30 degrees. 

I think it is the site picture I struggle with. 

Right now I might get it right sometimes but the lucky last 180 is pissing me off :). 

On speed is always squared away on the back course. 

Please help :). 

 

[SharpeXB]

What exactly is it about the final turn that’s a struggle?

There are a lot of tutorials out there on this, tried watching any of those?

Edited December 5, 2023 by SharpeXB

[AegisFX]

What about the visuals are off for you? And what about the last turn is bothering you?

 

If you're doing your final turn as well as you should (and as you may be implying), this should be close to where you need it be and you should be able to get consistent results.

[Joch1955]

Are you using ICLS? essential to make sure you are lined up right. If you follow the ICLS cross and are on AOA, you are 90% there.

[Skeet]

Keep your eyes in the jet, on your roll indicator and your Velocity Vector until you are half way around the final Base Turn.  No glancing back to the boat until 1/2 way around, then back to your instruments. You seek consistency in both your horizontal alignment with the boat, as well as your vertical alignment so that you can descend at the ideal glide slope to the wires.

Practice, practice, practice! 

I sent you a PM with some drills that may help. 

[Dragon1-1]

Also, the Hornet won't hold roll at 30 degrees, which makes things harder. I found this very annoying and unrealistic, even the Tomcat mostly stays where you put it in roll. So does a Piper Cub. I find it hard to believe an FBW aircraft would not hold roll.

[Fresh]

I suggest you use Bankler's trainer, put it in pattern mode and leave the hook up and practice, practice and practice... use Tacview to analyse your pattern. The runway markings are harder to see than in real life so you have to use the wake as a reference until you can see your lineup. The speed and bank angle for your turn to downwind will determine your abeam distance, so that is where you have to get it right first, not the last part.. set up your HSI so you can see the course line and the distance off the line, rather than the distance from mother.. try for 1.3-1.4

 Good luck, you can DM me if you want me to help you more.

 

[ACME_WIdgets]

Try getting further away from carrier on your downwind leg.  Then make two 90 degree turns to final approach.
Then keep moving closer to the carrier on downwind until you make a smooth 180 to final.

[Foka]

Distance from carrier will vary depending on aircraft's weight. When I'm recovering heavy (just below 34k lbs) I prefer more distance - 1.3-1.4 nm from carrier. When I'm light (31-32k lbs), I'll be closer - 1.1-1.2 nm.

As other said practice, practice, but analyze your recoveries, recognize your mistakes and correct them. Simply doing patterns, failing, and not knowing what went wrong won't help you.

[bonesvf103]

Don't sweat things too much because even if you are on the numbers all the time there is always that random factor that will change things or have your otherwise perfect approach become not so perfect.

Ideally, especially in cyclic ops, you should be about 1.1-1.3 nm from from the boat on downwind.  Your turn to the 90 should occur right when you see the paint on the round down.  When you make the turn, depending on how far close you are from the boat when you did it will determine how much bank you need.  At the max of 1.3 nm?  Turn 27 deg AOB and a little later.  Closer like 1.0 nm?  Turn harder at 30 AOB and turn sooner.  EIther way you shouldn't be anywhere outside the 27-30 AOB ideally.  But if you find you need to be--then do some of that pilot sierra and do what you have to within safe parameters to get yourself there.

I agree that it's hard to see the markings on the boat compared to real life.  What I end up doing to help myself out is remember what BRC is and turn to very closely PARALLEL the boat at BRC.  As in, if I was to keep flying straight, the boat would be just off to the side underneath my canopy rail.  Having the ship's wake under my armpit helps a little but I don't rely too much on that.  When I notice the localizer of the ICLS start to move left, then I gently bank to compensate and get on centerline.  Just dip the wing and straighten out  over and over as needed.  Holding a bank makes you lose life and will screw up your glide path.

But most important, practice!  You get more and more comfortable with it and know what to do but like I said there may always be something that comes up that changes things but you will know how to compensate.  Not even the most seasoned naval aviators get a three wire every single time.

v6,

boNes

[av8orDave]

A couple more pointers:

1) I second the suggestion to give yourself a bit more space in the downwind while you're learning the Case I. If you're too tight to the ship, the turn from downwind into the groove will require a high angle of bank and will be difficult to execute consistently.

2) Anticipate changes and stay ahead of the plane. When about to turn from downwind into the groove, add a bit of power to compensate for the reduction in lift as you bank the plane. Once you're about to level out on centerline, start reducing power to compensate for the increase in lift as you reduce your bank angle.

3) Get in a lot of reps. Consider going around over and over again to get a feel for the right distance from the boat on downwind and the right bank angle to turn to be lined up with the centerline in the groove.

I can't stress enough that many tutorials show the pilot banking 90 degrees in the initial break and pulling the daylights out of the stick and arriving less than a mile from the boat on downwind. This will then require a really high angle of bank in the last 180 turn, making things really difficult. Be patient in the initial break; maybe go to about a 60 degree bank, don't pull any harder than needed to maintain level flight in the break, and go from there.

[Razor18]

Set the TACAN course to BRC, but don't use the TACAN to measure perpendicular distance from the boat, as it will only show the value you are looking for accurately, when you are abeam of the boat. Instead, put the HSI in the AMPCD between your legs, then you can see the paralell/offset distance of your downwind leg from the boat's "axis" in the bottom right corner of the HSI. Don't put the HSI to the left DDI, as the advisory line will obstruct the distance value.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Razor18

[bonesvf103]

10 hours ago, davidrbarnette said:

2) Anticipate changes and stay ahead of the plane. When about to turn from downwind into the groove, add a bit of power to compensate for the reduction in lift as you bank the plane. Once you're about to level out on centerline, start reducing power to compensate for the increase in lift as you reduce your bank angle.

 

I can't stress enough that many tutorials show the pilot banking 90 degrees in the initial break and pulling the daylights out of the stick and arriving less than a mile from the boat on downwind. This will then require a really high angle of bank in the last 180 turn, making things really difficult. Be patient in the initial break; maybe go to about a 60 degree bank, don't pull any harder than needed to maintain level flight in the break, and go from there.

Yes #2 is important.  Also when you see tutorials when they are breaking 90 degrees, that usually should only be happening if doing a SHB which is not too normal practice and really only reserved for the person who thinks he has the skills to show off (and is the one breaking the deck so as to not be a danger to anyone else).  Otherwise don't be afraid to go even as far as 4 nm upwind before performing the break if you need to (BTW, 4 nm is the max you can be in the pattern before you must depart and re-enter).

v6,

boNes

[Nealius]

10 hours ago, davidrbarnette said:

I can't stress enough that many tutorials show the pilot banking 90 degrees in the initial break and pulling the daylights out of the stick and arriving less than a mile from the boat on downwind. This will then require a really high angle of bank in the last 180 turn, making things really difficult. Be patient in the initial break; maybe go to about a 60 degree bank, don't pull any harder than needed to maintain level flight in the break, and go from there.

Adding to this, I typically stick to a 3G pull, then around 2~2.5G once below 300kts, but typically after the first 90 degrees of the break turn I'm not paying attention to G and my head is outside the cockpit, looking at Mother to adjust my pull as necessary to arrive at roughly 1~1.2nm abeam. Sticking a destroyer at 1nm abeam the ship can help you build this picture.

[CBStu]

I do my best in the break turn so I end up at the 1.2nm from the boat. But a couple of fudges usually help. I set tacan course to BRC and, as mentioned, I watch the distance from the time I straighten out of the break as it drops down to it's minimum as I am abeam the boat. BTW, I use the course line to determine when to straighten out of the break. I want to fly parallel to the course line. I use the distance at abeam to decide on my final turn bank angle. 1.0-1.2nm = bank of 30deg. 1.4-1.6 = bank of 26-28deg. As mentioned the 18 doesn't settle into a bank. On it's own, the bank will steadily increase. So when I want a 28deg bank, that is kind of an average. I may vary 26-30deg. Also I will use some bank adjustment to help me fix an altitude problem. Especially if I get low, I need a lot of throttle by itself to increase altitude but a few deg reduced bank can help w/ that. Also, if I use a lot of throttle to gain altitude, I find coming back out of the throttle so I don't overshoot my desired altitude more difficult than cranking back in a couple degrees bank. One more fudge. You do have your HSI set at 5nm right? Anything more reduces the level of detail.

[ruddy122]

That is the hardest concept to understand

Power controls altitude, Up and Down controls Speed

Pray and hope you get a wire

If you go too fast and catch a wire your going swimming

 

[Nazgûl]