WMR getting deprecated.. ?

[Buzzer1977]

What does this mean to DCS VR users with WMR / SteamVR headsets?

Quote

Windows Mixed Reality is deprecated and will be removed in a future release of Windows. This deprecation includes the Mixed Reality Portal app, and Windows Mixed Reality for SteamVR and Steam VR Beta.

 

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/whats-new/deprecated-features?ranMID=24542&ranEAID=kXQk6*ivFEQ&ranSiteID=kXQk6.ivFEQ-LL9a9nOYiiInA01N0LKr8A&epi=kXQk6.ivFEQ-LL9a9nOYiiInA01N0LKr8A&irgwc=1&OCID=AIDcmm549zy227_aff_7593_1243925&tduid=(ir__d926c190x0kfd2l22dux2jo1yu2x92ueqc3kmw6200)(7593)(1243925)(kXQk6.ivFEQ-LL9a9nOYiiInA01N0LKr8A)()&irclickid=_d926c190x0kfd2l22dux2jo1yu2x92ueqc3kmw6200

[The_Nephilim]

it means we need to get a new headset. this is going to stink for poor users like me.. I am going to have to start saving my pennies for a new headset I guess..

[oldcrusty]

Fine, I won't cry    Whatever I get it's not going to be dependent on meta or any other mandatory 'ping' crap

[slughead]

Deprecation usually means to be replaced with something entirely new. Therefore, the old tools\libaries\modules etc would be removed and/or further development ceased to concentrate on the newer technology.

[mytai01]

I think it means that headset manufactures will have to add whatever support necessary to keep their products running. MS won't do it for them anymore.

[dooom]

Ruh roh shaggy… not surprising but unfortunate news:

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/whats-new/deprecated-features
 

what now?  Is this a big a threat as I perceive?

[The_Nephilim]

 

6 hours ago, mytai01 said:

I think it means that headset manufactures will have to add whatever support necessary to keep their products running. MS won't do it for them anymore.

Well if that is the case I doubt HP is going to come out with their own software as they got out as well.. Looks like I need to save my pennies for a Aero..

[RealDCSpilot]

It's a good thing. WMR was always the third leg no one needed. If you look back in time, on how much trouble it caused within the VR community... It will need years alone to diminish the number of users which confuse the OpenXR API with OpenXR toolkit and OpenComposite etc.

[BIGNEWY]

threads merged

[Leader98]

From https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/whats-new/feature-lifecycle:
The following article lists features that are no longer being developed. These features might be removed in a future release.
Deprecated Windows features

From https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/deprecated-vs-removed-difference/:
Windows users became outraged when they learned that the classic Microsoft Paint will be deprecated in the upcoming Windows 10 Fall Creators Update. While Paint hasn't even seen an update since Windows 7, people started scrambling for alternatives and cursing Microsoft for removing their favorite crappy image editing program.

But Microsoft said that it will deprecate Paint in the new update, not remove it. Did you know there's a difference?

Removal of a feature means that it's completely gone with no official method to restore it. In some cases, you may be able to download an alternative or use some kind of trick to get it working again. Normally, Microsoft (and other companies) removes features when they're no longer needed. For instance, Desktop Gadgets had security problems, so they're no longer part of Windows.

Deprecation, on the other hand, means that the manufacturer discourages a feature's use but leaves it available. Typically, deprecation occurs when a feature is unsafe or gets replaced with a superior alternative. When features are marked for deprecation, you can still use them even though they're not under active development.

This allows for backwards compatibility and time for users to migrate to a replacement. But deprecated features often come with a warning recommending other solutions. In future versions, deprecated features often face removal.

 

 

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by Leader98

[Buzzer1977]

On 12/22/2023 at 10:27 AM, RealDCSpilot said:

It's a good thing. WMR was always the third leg no one needed. If you look back in time, on how much trouble it caused within the VR community... It will need years alone to diminish the number of users which confuse the OpenXR API with OpenXR toolkit and OpenComposite etc.

"no one" is everybody with a WMR VR headset. 

[Baldrick33]

On 12/22/2023 at 9:27 AM, RealDCSpilot said:

It's a good thing. WMR was always the third leg no one needed. If you look back in time, on how much trouble it caused within the VR community... It will need years alone to diminish the number of users which confuse the OpenXR API with OpenXR toolkit and OpenComposite etc.

With OpenXR support increasing the ease of installing a WMR headset has never been easier. Simply plug it in, Windows detects it and installs the WMR portal and Windows has its own OpenXR drivers. There is no need to mess around with SteamVR or WMR for SteamVR. Stuff like toolkits for fiddling with settings is optional depending how computer savvy you are. It is probably one of the few genuine plug and play environments out there, doesn’t need a phone or third party account.

[DerekSpeare]

As long as M$ doesn't strip WMR out of Win10 it should be ok for a lot of people.  However, my question is do they think VR is kaput or do they think something else is going to be the next new standard for VR? 

BTW, the need for a low cost, 140 degree HMD with good clarity cannot be overstated.  These expensive samples are going the wrong way if VR is to become anything more than an ultra niche thing. 

[Chief_Biv]

7 hours ago, Baldrick33 said:

With OpenXR support increasing the ease of installing a WMR headset has never been easier. Simply plug it in, Windows detects it and installs the WMR portal and Windows has its own OpenXR drivers. There is no need to mess around with SteamVR or WMR for SteamVR. Stuff like toolkits for fiddling with settings is optional depending how computer savvy you are. It is probably one of the few genuine plug and play environments out there, doesn’t need a phone or third party account.

I agree. In DCS VR has become plug and play for my headset. I still cannot understand why MS leave access to the current WMR software to owners of these headsets. It smells like they have done a deal with Meta or someone else which is “anti-competitive”. I can understand that MS would want to cease all development and support for WMR. However, removing the the ability to even launch this legacy software is going too far.

[The_Nephilim]

On 12/22/2023 at 1:27 AM, RealDCSpilot said:

It's a good thing. WMR was always the third leg no one needed. If you look back in time, on how much trouble it caused within the VR community... It will need years alone to diminish the number of users which confuse the OpenXR API with OpenXR toolkit and OpenComposite etc.

Glad to know I am a no one.. I can feel the love

[Dragon1-1]

11 hours ago, Chief_Biv said:

However, removing the the ability to even launch this legacy software is going too far.

Which is why they're deprecating it, not removing it. Presumably, there will be ways to install and run it, but it won't be supported and will eventually rely on a patchwork of community workarounds and unofficial hacks to get it running.

That said, I was wondering whether to save up for the Aero. I wonder no more. That probably means I'm not getting started with gliders next season, but we'll see how the money goes.

[Buzzer1977]

On 12/24/2023 at 9:48 AM, Dragon1-1 said:

Which is why they're deprecating it, not removing it.

Which is wrong. They literally said it in their release note:
 

Quote

Windows Mixed Reality is deprecated and will be removed in a future release of Windows.

It is deprecated as of now and will be removed in a future release, which is Q4 2024 for Pro and Home and Q4 2025 for Enterprise.
 

[Phantom711]

„Future release“ could also mean something like Windows 12.

Alternatively „a future release“ is still not necessarily „the“ next update.

Removing it in 9 month would be a pretty hard stop…

Edited December 25, 2023 by Phantom711

[Dragon1-1]

Deprecated features have been known to occasionally stay in Windows for years. Internet Explorer, for instance, was removed relatively recently. So I wouldn't worry about that part. They're deprecating it for now, which is bad enough, given that it's pretty important for those of us with WMR headsets.

Edited December 25, 2023 by Dragon1-1

[RealDCSpilot]

On 12/23/2023 at 2:18 PM, Buzzer1977 said:

"no one" is everybody with a WMR VR headset. 

You mix up the device with an API and a runtime that no one needed. WMR was an API and a runtime. If the Reverb never had OpenXR support you wouldn't even know that it exists. WMR was one of those fails of Microsoft, completely misunderstanding a new and slowly growing market. Check how much of the other WMR headsets failed so badly in 2017.

[Fisherman82]

14 minutes ago, RealDCSpilot said:

You mix up the device with an API and a runtime that no one needed. WMR was an API and a runtime. If the Reverb never had OpenXR support you wouldn't even know that it exists. WMR was one of those fails of Microsoft, completely misunderstanding a new and slowly growing market. Check how much of the other WMR headsets failed so badly in 2017.

Do you mean that you can run DCS with the Reverb without WMR using Open XR? Because thats how I have understood it, if that is correct I wonder if many i this thread knows that. 

[RealDCSpilot]

No, that's the other problem of WMR. It's a prison created by Microsoft. And HP's problem was to enter it. They hopped into bed with Microsoft and all the dependencies that come with it. It might have been a good idea on paper first, lowering the cost for developing efforts by simply following Microsoft's specifications and requirements.
The only solution for current WMR users would be a kind soul of programmer who codes an open "jailbreak" to maintain and keep WMR dependent devices alive. An own driver, runtime and connection to OpenXR would be better. However, since HP stopped their VR endeavour at the moment, there will be no progress in hardware capabilities anyway and WMR devices are doomed to die out eventually. No one will care about it in a couple of years anyway, there will be other and better HMDs to choose from.

Just to clarify: WMR was also an API like OpenVR, LibOVR (Oculus) and OpenXR (later). WMR as a runtime (WMR portal) wanted to see VR apps made for WMR the API. But at this time (2017) LibOVR and OpenVR were the most common APIs already, so no serious developer wanted to go the extra mile to integrate or build their app for  the third much less accepted VR API. As a cumbersome afterthought, WMR for SteamVR was created, a wrapper to translate WMR to OpenVR to give WMR HMD owners access to Steam's VR library. (There was no official OpenXR game available until MS 2020 flight sim was released). What a mess. With the introduction of the HP Reverb, HP actually tried to avoid the VR gaming market first and provide their headset to professional users only who develop their own WMR apps for business use cases.

Edited December 29, 2023 by RealDCSpilot

[Baldrick33]

22 minutes ago, RealDCSpilot said:

No, that's the other problem of WMR. It's a prison created by Microsoft. And HP's problem was to enter it. They hopped into bed with Microsoft and all the dependencies that come with it. It might have been a good idea on paper first, lowering the cost for developing efforts by simply following Microsoft's specifications and requirements.

HP’s problem wasn’t WMR but the poor quality of the devices which it seems were the product of an experimental lab allowed to be given an opportunity to see how it went. Speaking with support which I did several times thanks to a two year warranty and four replacement headsets and a cable and faceplate they didn’t seem to know the product even existed. I had to talk them through what it was. That said they were very accommodating in replacing broken units. At one point I had to explain I had a conversation with the VR dept leader on Reddit as to what to do with my failed headset.

15 hours ago, RealDCSpilot said:

If the Reverb never had OpenXR support you wouldn't even know that it exists.

The relative success of the Reverb as king of reasonable priced headsets had nothing to do with OpenXR, the headset has been frequently out of stock in G1 & G2 variants and still charged at full price (in the UK at least) throughout its four year life thus far. The Reverb was always a toe in the water and WMR provided a relatively straightforward environment to use without having to create a proprietary API like Oculus and the costs and time associated with doing so.

The problem is that Microsoft wanted to jump in to the VR space to create a VR store and it failed to take off and unsurprisingly has abandoned WMR as a project.

 

[RealDCSpilot]

The only thing everyone was interested in were the Reverb's first highres panels in an affordable VR headset. Everything around it was cheap as hell (the controllers... ouch, the tracking...), but those panels were perfect for sims with cockpits with instruments etc. If guys like mbucchia didn't came to the rescue with OpenXR toolkit or OpenComposite as a direct wrapper from OpenVR to OpenXR, no WMR user would had a good experience with VR games. That's the only reason why WMR itself survived this long. It's death was quite foreseeable 6 years ago.

Edited December 29, 2023 by RealDCSpilot

[Baldrick33]

1 hour ago, RealDCSpilot said:

 If guys like mbucchia didn't came to the rescue with OpenXR toolkit or OpenComposite as a direct wrapper from OpenVR to OpenXR, no WMR user would had a good experience with VR games. That's the only reason why WMR itself survived this long. It's death was quite foreseeable 6 years ago.

 

I disagree, whilst OpenXR opened the opportunity for exploring various options and performance tweaks, SteamVR and WMR worked adequately from the outset. I would hazard a guess many have no idea what OpenXR is and many games don’t officially support it even now.

FWIW I still think a Reverb is a good choice for seated sims right now at its price point and use it for several years.