correct as is Can't catch E-bracet with new update, can't trim aircraft properly

[Aperture]

After latest update, it is become impossible to catch E-bracet during landing. Also, it is become impossible to hold aircraft on speed doing only throttle inputs. You need constantly correct aircraft vertically with a stick.

I'm sure everyone is able to recreate this. 

[razo+r]

Not really, just did several landings today and it was rock steady on glide with minimal to no speed changes.

 

[speed-of-heat]

same 

[VFA41_Lion]

5 hours ago, Aperture said:

After latest update, it is become impossible to catch E-bracet during landing. Also, it is become impossible to hold aircraft on speed doing only throttle inputs. You need constantly correct aircraft vertically with a stick.

I'm sure everyone is able to recreate this. 

You don't hold the Hornet on speed with throttle inputs, you use the pitch trim. Throttle is for managing descent rate. 

I had no problems testing it yesterday. 

 

[Shimmergloom667]

22 hours ago, Aperture said:

After latest update, it is become impossible to catch E-bracet during landing. Also, it is become impossible to hold aircraft on speed doing only throttle inputs. You need constantly correct aircraft vertically with a stick.

I'm sure everyone is able to recreate this. 

Nope, spent several hours doing Case I landings without issues in getting the bird onspeed

[GremlinIV]

It is actually now very easy to hold AoA on Speed in a straight line (ive even considered going for a smoke when its in auto throttle)

However, when you do a case 1 and going into a 30 deg bank, the E bracket indicates you are fast (which it previously did not it was rock solid as long as you didnt use any pitch)

This can encourage you to trim in back to centre with more nose up, but when you roll out you are then indicated as slow and will also balloon if you added any throttle.

Not sure if the E bracket is just an indication or if you actually are trimmed low nose thus Fast.  Banklers certainly seems to think so as it is now throwing feedback of Fast and slow.

To be honest it feels like its a tomcat with the funny wobble if you roll too aggressively followed by the AOA indexer showing fast, in the tomcat you would bump the stick back a little cos it is a tomcat and you can. 

The hornet has always been solid with the E bracket Bolted to the centre once trimmed on speed AoA, even landing and launching several times it held its trim bang in the centre all the time.

 Like i say it could just be an indication, but it is very off-putting.

One other minor thing i noticed is on Cat 1 I always used to put the bank angle caret between the directors feet but now the caret needs to be at his knees when the director says stop.

Could be the front wheel suspension has lifted the nose a fraction, not a biggie.

The biggie is slapping your head into the dash when you brake hard and the nose dips, it seems excessive IMHO, but hey ho its gotta be right, right?

[Joch1955]

The trim has been changed, so you have to get re-used to it, it took me a few tries to get back in the groove. It seems less mushy than before and seems to require less input for the same results. It also seems to react quicker than before which is a plus.

Edited February 24 by Joch1955

[BIGNEWY]

please include a track replay all seems ok for trimming and the E bracket when we test. 

 

[SickSidewinder9]

It seemed a little different at first, but I figured it out after a couple 3 landings.  As mentioned, you should be using pitch trim to get on speed and the throttle to regulate descent.  The only time I need to use fore/aft stick once I'm on the glide path is with auto throttle.

[abikns]

I observe the same behavior, but only in certain maps/scenarios. I recorded two tracks and in both tracks I fly at ~250 knots, ~3000 ft BAR ALT in level flight. Then I put the throttle to idle, drop the gear and set flaps to full and just wait for things to happen.

In the Nevada track it does pretty much what I expect:
- speed is reducing, nose drops a bit and once the flaps kick in, the nose goes up again
In the Syria track things are different:
- speed is reducing, nose drops and drops and drops, speed then increases because of the dive, but even with full aft stick, I'm barely able to recover

This behavior is repeatable, I tried it several times. I'm using Steam MT preview and the (unmodified) instant action free flight Nevada/Syria.

Same behavior with just flaps (not dropping gear). In Syria it seems that the flaps never kick in. Setting the flaps back to auto during the dive results in uplift, which should not be the case.

Nevada.trk Syria.trk

Edited February 25 by abikns

[VFA41_Lion]

5 hours ago, abikns said:

I observe the same behavior, but only in certain maps/scenarios. I recorded two tracks and in both tracks I fly at ~250 knots, ~3000 ft BAR ALT in level flight. Then I put the throttle to idle, drop the gear and set flaps to full and just wait for things to happen.

In the Nevada track it does pretty much what I expect:
- speed is reducing, nose drops a bit and once the flaps kick in, the nose goes up again
In the Syria track things are different:
- speed is reducing, nose drops and drops and drops, speed then increases because of the dive, but even with full aft stick, I'm barely able to recover

This behavior is repeatable, I tried it several times. I'm using Steam MT preview and the (unmodified) instant action free flight Nevada/Syria.

Same behavior with just flaps (not dropping gear). In Syria it seems that the flaps never kick in. Setting the flaps back to auto during the dive results in uplift, which should not be the case.

Nevada.trk 1.87 MB · 1 download Syria.trk 671.39 kB · 0 downloads

 

Your nevada track has you at 6000 lbs of fuel and no weapons
Your syria track has you with a full loadout of weapons and full fuel load

i tested the syria instant action after dumping weapons and fuel to 34,000 lb total weight and the aircraft flaps behaved correctly as expected

[abikns]

Good point, I did overlook that little detail. Thank you for your response.

Edited February 25 by abikns

[FlyAnyTime]

The new FA-18 flight model seems for me to be terrible.  Before I could easily land on a carrier and control AOA with the throttle with approach speeds anywhere from 125 to 140 and land with out blowing out the gear.  Now the AOA control with the throttle is almost non-existent and in order to get the AOA to raise up the speed goes through the roof.  It is almost like I had a good flight model before that I could control AOA to one that balloons like crazy and is so unstable at low speeds that it’s impossible to land without collapsing the gear.

Is there a way to get the old flight model back?   

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

2 minutes ago, FlyAnyTime said:

Now the AOA control with the throttle

 

[FlyAnyTime]

Yes, I use to use the pitch trim to set the velocity vector into the middle of the e bracket and I would use the throttle to keep the elevation of the ebracket and velocity vector on the required flight path. Now it is almost impossible to keep them togeather.   Before when I hade them set all I had to do was was just bump trim between turns and straight and use throttle to control decent rate.  Now it simply impossible to control decent rate with the throttle after  I have the velocity vector aligned in the middle of the e bracket.   I wish I could take a video of before and after to explain it. 

Edited February 26 by FlyAnyTime

[Dangerzone]

4 hours ago, FlyAnyTime said:

The new FA-18 flight model seems for me to be terrible.  Before I could easily land on a carrier and control AOA with the throttle with approach speeds anywhere from 125 to 140 and land with out blowing out the gear.  Now the AOA control with the throttle is almost non-existent and in order to get the AOA to raise up the speed goes through the roof.  It is almost like I had a good flight model before that I could control AOA to one that balloons like crazy and is so unstable at low speeds that it’s impossible to land without collapsing the gear.

Is there a way to get the old flight model back?   

To answer your question first - no, there's no way to get the old flight model back (short of rolling back to a previous version). 

The hornet is still WIP, and the update to the flight model I believe is to make it more accurate to real life. (In doing so, it may make some things more difficult to do than before, as it closer resembles reality). 

I'm not sure if they've made changes to the throttle at all, or whether it's because there have been changes made to the drag part of the flight model that makes the throttle more effective. Kicking in afterburners now certainly seems to be a lot more responsive.

For the most part, I'm enjoying the new flight model, and the additional control/AoA/etc that it gives, whilst also finding it a challenge to relearn and refine muscle memory. I understand how some people may see it as a backwards step, especially that it seems more responsive now than previously. However it's definitely not impossible to land without breaking gear - many are doing it. It might not be what you want to hear, but I think it's a matter of relearning the bird a little to get more familiar with how she now handles.

 

[BIGNEWY]

If you think something is wrong you will need to attach a track replay example and any evidence you have to suggest it is wrong. 

We have reported a pitch down tendency with half or full flaps with aileron input, looks like ASI command is making a little overcompensation command. 

But other than that the F/A-18C flight model checks out. 

thank you 

threads merged

Note:
please ensure  FULL flaps for landings and HALF for launch,

we are seeing tracks with users who are doing touch and goes with full flaps and trimmed to 8 AoA setting, so after the bolter the pitch up tendency will be high. 

 

[FlyAnyTime]

As a pilot my only experience has been with propeller aircraft and that is limited to three, Cessna 172, Piper PA-24 Comanche, and a Beechcraft T-34 Mentor.  As a passenger I have flow in many aircraft going back to when I was a child in the 1950’s.  While in the Navy I was stationed on the Aircraft Carrier Kitty Hawk CVA-63 during the Viet Nam war, long before the Hornet was a concept. So, I have no experience as a pilot of high-performance jets.  

My point in this is that I do appreciate the desire to achieve an as realistic flight model as possible.  In my case, I simply was not expecting such a dramatic change in the flying characteristics that I could go from landing consistently to not at all.  I know I’m old and its hard to teach an old dog new tricks.  I was able to finally make a successful landing on the ship this morning but it was not pretty.  Any instructions on make the change from the old model to the new in terms of control inputs would be appreciated.  As I stated earlier, I would use the trim control to get the velocity vector to the center of the e bracket.  I would only have to change trim if I was turning.  In the turn I would use roll to keep the E bracket and velocity vector aligned with the horizon, on the rollout I would have to trim again and use the throttle to adjust the decent rate. I would not use pitch at all during the landing process.  Now the throttle to adjust decent rate seems to be replaced with use the trim? Am I interpreting that correctly?

Edited February 26 by FlyAnyTime

[Thorns]

Hopefully a real life Hornet driver can give some input to this situation. Good pilots can overcome any ill flight characteristics, but is it right. Realize this is ED’s flight sim and not the US Navy. Seems like getting on speed within E-bracket is an excessive trim nightmare.

[SickSidewinder9]

23 hours ago, FlyAnyTime said:

The new FA-18 flight model seems for me to be terrible.  Before I could easily land on a carrier and control AOA with the throttle with approach speeds anywhere from 125 to 140 and land with out blowing out the gear.  Now the AOA control with the throttle is almost non-existent and in order to get the AOA to raise up the speed goes through the roof.  It is almost like I had a good flight model before that I could control AOA to one that balloons like crazy and is so unstable at low speeds that it’s impossible to land without collapsing the gear.

Is there a way to get the old flight model back?   

What kind of landing weights are we talking here?  Carrier traps should happen at no more than 34,000lbs.  33,000 in some situations which might be like asymmetries and such.  You should also hit the deck at no more than 750fps descent rate.  I've noticed that generally the on speed descent at any weight is a lot more than that, but in the last couple seconds, the ground effect helps ease you down.
The reason you have all those different jettison buttons and a fuel dump switch is because of the carrier restrictions.  You really want to be light when you land.  If you land at an airfield, you can do 39,000lbs, but you have to flair.

[SickSidewinder9]

Or is it flare?  lol

[Jackjack171]

7 hours ago, Thorns said:

Hopefully a real life Hornet driver can give some input to this situation. Good pilots can overcome any ill flight characteristics, but is it right. Realize this is ED’s flight sim and not the US Navy. Seems like getting on speed within E-bracket is an excessive trim nightmare.

 From what I understand ED already consults with real Hornet drivers, the SME's! I'm thinking some of the trim problems are the byproduct of bad technique combined with a new way of doing business.

[IvanK]

Its many moons ago since I Flew the bracket IRL (and then on a land based A model) however its new behavior is much better and a lot closer to how I remember it to be.  The intent is to trim straight to On speed AOA then leave the trim alone. With smooth coordinated power and pitch input you can easily remain on speed with the VV on the required aimpoint.

After Lot 20 entry date a software update was incorporated across the F18 fleet that actually displayed your exact "trimmed AOA" in the HUD. This to make it easier for the pilot to rapidly and precisly trim to On speed AOA. This occurred with LG down Flaps full and you trimming. So basically you just trimmed until you saw 8.3 and thats it you are exactly trimmed to On speed AOA.As soon as you stop trimming the digits disappear.

We don't have this luxury in game but a little mod in the Flt controls indicator.LUA can achieve the exact same thing .. a direct trim ref to On Speed AOA. This is a little variation of Rackman's " F/A_18C controls Indicator scales for trimming". The mod simply puts a reference mark on the in game Flight controls display that indicates  8.3 degrees AOA. So just trim till the white +  is abeam the reference marks and thats it trimmed precisely to on Speed.... no guesswork required.

It passes the IC . Just needs to be copied in after every update.

Link: https: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3336053/

Edited February 27 by IvanK

[Tiger-II]

On 2/24/2024 at 4:46 PM, GremlinIV said:

It is actually now very easy to hold AoA on Speed in a straight line (ive even considered going for a smoke when its in auto throttle)

However, when you do a case 1 and going into a 30 deg bank, the E bracket indicates you are fast (which it previously did not it was rock solid as long as you didnt use any pitch)

The E bracket should show you're slow during the turn (it's AoA based, and AoA increases during a turn, or any time g load increases).

[Jackjack171]

9 hours ago, Tiger-II said:

The E bracket should show you're slow during the turn (it's AoA based, and AoA increases during a turn, or any time g load increases).

Not entirely true. On-speed can be held in the turn, it just has to be managed properly.