reported What do you think about canopy effects and DDIs?

[Atazar SPN]

What do you think about canopy effects and DDIs?

Personally I liked the previous texturing better.

The current texturing lacks definition and does not offer the graphic quality to which we are accustomed.

I had to edit the initial message because someone on the team misinterpreted this as a wish.

Edited February 29 by Atazar SPN

[Atazar SPN]

This has been moved to the wishlist for some reason I don't understand because I'm not really requesting anything, I'm just asking if people are happy with the current retexture.

But since we are here, I can say that if this becomes a wish, it is because it is not possible.

A year ago I did request a retexture that would give greater realism and I gave up because no one supported it, but later the F-15 came out with the effects I was referring to and everyone filled the comment boxes with praise, because the Texturing of the F-15 is perfect.

[OldFlyer]

Actually, in the F15E I wish I could turn off the MFD fingerprints!

[Atazar SPN]

hace 4 horas, OldFlyer dijo:

Actually, in the F15E I wish I could turn off the MFD fingerprints!

Your opinion is acceptable and respectable, although you and I are two and at the end of this thread perhaps only 2% of DCS users have given their opinion. I'm just telling you, no one wanted that type of cockpit modeling on the Hornet, but when it was delivered to them in other modules, they liked it.

I also tell him that I have waived that request and have accepted that the fingerprints and scratches are not going to arrive, that is why the title of the thread is not (Please add scratches) it is simply a question about the current texturing.

I don't like the current texturing. I liked the previous one better and when I say that Eagle Dynamics can do it better, it is because they are great professionals and I know they can do it much better. In the end my conclusion is praise for them.

[OldFlyer]

Some people like them and some people don’t, I think an option in the settings to turn them on/off would be great. Then we all win 

[Atazar SPN]

Come on ED, I'm sure you can do better.

I don't know exactly what those reflections show.

[BIGNEWY]

Hi, 

sorry you do not like them, however they are working as intended, you can find many examples online from real world 
Also note your mission time and weather will affect how they look in various different lighting setups. 

let us know your DCS settings and attach a track replay example and we will see if we can help you.

thank you 

[schmiefel]

As a passionate photographer let me just add, that the picture above shows how a camera lens or video optic 'sees'. That's not exactly like the human eye view and brain works. Plus a real pilot would pull down its helmet visor (like seen above) to shield direct sun light influence and that helps with such reflections, too. So I think those kind of baked reflections have a lot of overdrive and since the DCS graphics engine can't handle raytraced reflections I would always deactivate them.

[BIGNEWY]

Yes things like focal point matter, we have passed on the feedback to the team so we could see improvement in the future as the technology (raytracing for example) in DCS improves.

Thank you 

[NineLine]

BIGNEWY and I have reviewed and requested some tuning of the reflections, although they look more dynamic like our newer offerings they do seem too intense still. We have requested a review with the F/A-18C team. Thanks. 

[Hiob]

4 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Yes things like focal point matter, ….

I think this is the core of the problem. In real live you change your focus and look right through refections (or move your head or shield the light with your body - kind of instinctively. In game they are restricting the view, no matter what. 

For that reason, I‘d absolutely keep them but make them a little more faint/transparent than is realistic maybe.

But, I would urge ED to have a look into the canopy effects, including reflections and scratches, across all modules (including the basic/default scratches that are seemingly used by many third parties). Some of them are great, but a lot are sub par by now. That would be much appreciated, I‘d bet.

Edited February 29 by Hiob

[Dos]

Am I the only OCD one? That glass better shine more than my flight boots, heck even the tires better shine : ). Ok maybe too overboard but in 21 years all we ever did in the US Navy was clean, why would we want or even allow for a dirty cockpit...

My vote: Allow for on and off as mentioned by schmiefel. Since we would be, in reality, looking past it.

Thanks for supporting us back ED Team.

Kindly,

J

[Atazar SPN]

hace 5 horas, BIGNEWY dijo:

Hi, 

sorry you do not like them, however they are working as intended, you can find many examples online from real world 
Also note your mission time and weather will affect how they look in various different lighting setups. 

let us know your DCS settings and attach a track replay example and we will see if we can help you.

thank you 

All the actual photos I'm finding show a canopy with higher resolution highlights than what ED is currently offering.

I'm sorry. I already realized that they have once again made me the irrelevant customer.

I will not bother you again with my stupid opinions.

Good afternoon everyone =)

[schmiefel]

14 minutes ago, Atazar SPN said:

All the actual photos I'm finding show a canopy with higher resolution highlights than what ED is currently offering.

Like I already said above: those are reflections 'seen' through a camera lens (without the usage of a polarizing filter). But that's not like the human eye and brain works that normally just shifts the focal point beyond the reflection. And as long as the DCS graphics engine can't handle true light rays (e.g. with the usage of ray- or even pathtracing algorithms) I would suggest not using them or at least tone them down a lot.

Edited February 29 by schmiefel
typo fixed

[Atazar SPN]

hace 31 minutos, schmiefel dijo:

Like I already said above: those are reflections 'seen' through a camera lens (without the usage of a polarizing filter). But that's not like the human eye and brain works that normally just shifts the focal point beyond the reflection. And as long as the DCS graphics engine can't handle true light rays (e.g. with the usage of ray- or even pathtracing algorithms) I would suggest not using them or at least tone them down a lot.

 

I am referring to the resolution of the image, the sharpness. The current texture shows a blurry mass, too accentuated and without definition. But anyway I already said that I have no intention of pursuing the matter any further, especially in a place where my opinion is not appreciated.

If you like what you currently have, it seems perfect to me.

I've seen similar threads about texturing changes that haven't been moved to the wishlist and it honestly seems disrespectful to me, because this isn't a wish, it's an obvious graphical error.

[Atazar SPN]

What I show here is a very low resolution texture. The idea of adding dynamic reflections is good, but what we have is not of sufficient quality. It shows deformed figures without any resolution.

I have removed all the layers to show the original reflections layer.

 

[Hiob]

I guess that‘s a compromise for performance. Like with the mirrors.

[Atazar SPN]

hace 1 hora, Hiob dijo:

I guess that‘s a compromise for performance. Like with the mirrors.

That's why I said I prefer what I had before. A static reflection (soft) but enough to give the sensation that there is something between the inside and outside of the cabin. The previous texture wasn't perfect, but it was better than a blurry canopy with low-resolution reflections.

[Q3ark]

Static reflections are absolutely terrible and even more so in VR, these new ones are a huge improvement. 

[Atazar SPN]

hace 51 minutos, Q3ark dijo:

Static reflections are absolutely terrible and even more so in VR, these new ones are a huge improvement. 

In the following video you can see the difference in the canopy reflection effects before the update. Only reflections are shown in appropriate lighting conditions and from my point of view it offers greater graphic quality and realism. They are higher resolution reflections with greater opacity that blend better with the scenery without blocking the view of what is behind.

 

[SkateZilla]

The reflections are likely to be tuned, as said, Raytracing in the DCS Engine is new.

As for some of the anti-reflection comments, 
How many of those are based on real world experience vs anti-change fueled? (ie you're not used to seeing them, so you immediately get defensive).

outside of some minor tweaks, and maybe resolution increase (can res be tied to the Sub Viewports settings?)

The raytraced reflections are correctly rendered in the environment, more so than the old Static textures.

I've sat in a few cockpits and flown back seat in a few, and considering it's a game there's going to be adjustments vs real life visuals.

As far as camera lens making the reflections....
Polarized lenses only block high intensity horizontal light, most of the time, canopy reflections are low intensity vertical light.. so... 

You dont need to be a pilot, drive your car down the highway and look at the windshield when the light passes through it, you can see reflections of your air vents etc etc pretty clearly, 
I wear polarized sunglasses while driving, and it doesnt affect windshield reflections at all, however, it does affect the glare off the hood, the dash, other cars windshields and rear windows.

 

[Hiob]

@SkateZilla 100% agree to what you said - and I, at least, don't want canopy reflections removed, be it static or dynamic.

And you're particulary right with you're car-dashboard analogy - which I used myself in the past. However, it must be taken into account, that other than in reality (e.g. in your car) - you can't change your focal point to look "through" them. Nor can you squint your eyes or anything like that.

So I think, asking for some fine tuning is legitimate - even if reflections are indeed a matter in RL. 

[schmiefel]

53 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

Polarized lenses only block high intensity horizontal light, most of the time, canopy reflections are low intensity vertical light.. so... 

I would say it depends: those polarized filters I use (circular) can be turned 360° to match the angle of reflecting light effects e.g. on/through a window (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polarizing_filter_(photography) ). But curved windows are a problem, that's true, because the angle of the reflections is not constant over the area so that the filter can't match every area.

But that doesn't change how the human eye-brain system works that allows shifting the focal point beyond the reflection so, if its not a real mirror, you see through the reflection and ignore it if its not beyond a certain strength or you concentrate willingly on seeing the reflection instead of the area behind the window/glass.

As even VR can't really simulate 'seeing' and visual adaption in the real world I rather would like to have those reflections toned down or make it toggle like other visual effects that are better used for photographic or video recording usage than for the flight experience itself.

For my understanding: Does the DCS graphics engine really already have raytracing algorithms to produce raytraced reflections in its rendering system instead of using pre-baked effects?

[SkateZilla]

1 hour ago, schmiefel said:

I would say it depends: those polarized filters I use (circular) can be turned 360° to match the angle of reflecting light effects e.g. on/through a window (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polarizing_filter_(photography) ). But curved windows are a problem, that's true, because the angle of the reflections is not constant over the area so that the filter can't match every area.

But that doesn't change how the human eye-brain system works that allows shifting the focal point beyond the reflection so, if its not a real mirror, you see through the reflection and ignore it if its not beyond a certain strength or you concentrate willingly on seeing the reflection instead of the area behind the window/glass.

As even VR can't really simulate 'seeing' and visual adaption in the real world I rather would like to have those reflections toned down or make it toggle like other visual effects that are better used for photographic or video recording usage than for the flight experience itself.

For my understanding: Does the DCS graphics engine really already have raytracing algorithms to produce raytraced reflections in its rendering system instead of using pre-baked effects?

The raytracing and ray traced reflections are new.

Edited March 6 by SkateZilla

[MAXsenna]

The reflections are likely to be tuned, as said, Raytracing in the DCS Engine is new.

As for some of the anti-reflection comments, 
How many of those are based on real world experience vs anti-change fueled? (ie you're not used to seeing them, so you immediately get defensive).

outside of some minor tweaks, and maybe resolution increase (can res be tied to the Sub Viewports settings?)

The raytraced reflections are correctly rendered in the environment, more so than the old Static textures.

I've sat in a few cockpits and flown back seat in a few, and considering it's a game there's going to be adjustments vs real life visuals.

As far as camera lens making the reflections....
Polarized lenses only block high intensity horizontal light, most of the time, canopy reflections are low intensity vertical light.. so... 

You dont need to be a pilot, drive your car down the highway and look at the windshield when the light passes through it, you can see reflections of your air vents etc etc pretty clearly, 
I wear polarized sunglasses while driving, and it doesnt affect windshield reflections at all, however, it does affect the glare off the hood, the dash, other cars windshields and rear windows.

 

Of course. If you focus on them. That's the problem with a computer screen. You can't focus beyond them.

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