waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[Ala12Rv-Tundra]

5 minutes ago, Major_Mayhem said:

What's to understand?

I purchased the product (F-15 and AV8B) From ED.
The developer Razbam publicly announced that they have stopped supporting the products that they developed for ED's DCS.
Products Developed by Razbam (M2K) start breaking with no updates on the horizon.
ED is still selling Razbam products while many of us our awaiting approval for our refund request on these now unsupported MODS especially on the F15E.

If ED refunds me the money I'm good. (I'll just use it to buy the OH58)
If ED takes control of the mods in question and continues to develop them to completion in a timely manor I'm good. (I'll still buy the OH58)
If Razbam steps up and resumes development and support of their mods I'm good. (I'll still buy the OH58)

However at the going rate ED and Razbam may well find themselves in a nasty class action lawsuit that could hurt both companies and those of us that have invested hundreds of dollars\Pounds\Euros in this game.

Until this is resolved I personally won't be buying any new mods/products from ED (Sorry Pollychop) until this issue is resolved or my refund for store credit is approved.

I also have no problem signing onto a class action to recoup some if not all my losses on this fiasco. I'm willing to bet there are a lot of people feeling the same way and have little care as to the cause of all of this, They just want the issue resolved or their money back.

Regardless of ED contractual obligations, Continuing to sell Razbam products during this drama makes ED look bad .... Like a grocery store continuing to sell contaminated ice cream after it has been known to be contaminated. No one is going to care that the store was contractually obligated to sell the ice cream

Have a great weekend sir

[lead dispenser]

13 minutes ago, Major_Mayhem said:

What's to understand?

I purchased the product (F-15 and AV8B) From ED.
The developer Razbam publicly announced that they have stopped supporting the products that they developed for ED's DCS.
Products Developed by Razbam (M2K) start breaking with no updates on the horizon.
ED is still selling Razbam products while many of us our awaiting approval for our refund request on these now unsupported MODS especially on the F15E.

If ED refunds me the money I'm good. (I'll just use it to buy the OH58)
If ED takes control of the mods in question and continues to develop them to completion in a timely manor I'm good. (I'll still buy the OH58)
If Razbam steps up and resumes development and support of their mods I'm good. (I'll still buy the OH58)

However at the going rate ED and Razbam may well find themselves in a nasty class action lawsuit that could hurt both companies and those of us that have invested hundreds of dollars\Pounds\Euros in this game.

Until this is resolved or my refund for store credit is approved, I personally won't be buying any new mods/products from ED (Sorry Pollychop).

I also have no problem signing onto a class action to recoup some if not all my losses on this fiasco. I'm willing to bet there are a lot of people feeling the same way and have little care as to the cause of all of this, They just want the issue resolved or their money back.

Regardless of ED contractual obligations, Continuing to sell Razbam products during this drama makes ED look bad .... Like a grocery store continuing to sell contaminated ice cream after it has been known to be contaminated. No one is going to care that the store was contractually obligated to sell the ice cream.

The way things look is irrelevant 90% of the drama is the player throwing there perceived weight around as if they have some right to do so .. They dont .they only know anything because somebody with very poor judgment posted info all over the internet .an now are stomping around when they have no info for or against . we don't know the products will be abandoned and clearly nether do the relevant parties if an when the decision is made then the correct procedures will be followed .ie products removed an refunds processed but as it stands nothing other then Razbam missing the last update has actually happened an threating class action law suites without a leg to stand on for a crime that hasn't happen is absurd

[Major_Mayhem]

Wow!
There is an ignore function on this forum!

Edited June 6, 2024 by Major_Mayhem

[Ignition]

7 hours ago, Horns said:

This whole debate, whichever side you are on, has come about because Razbam decided to make public comments about the dispute with ED - if not for Razbam's comments this conversation would not be happening. I know some people think customers are better served hearing part of the argument than none at all, I'm not sure and I probably won't make up my mind until after the situation is over and I see what happens with refunds, if things aren't resolved. Some also believe that Razbam and its devs were entitled to make the public comments they have, that opinion is valid. I disagree with it, but I've always disliked bullhorn negotiation.

Either way, it certainly looks like there has been a loss of goodwill as a result of this. If I were ED - please note I am not - I would be asking myself if this is really someone I can afford to be in business with, or whether it's better to cut my losses, recover what I can, find the best outcome I can for customers and move on. ED do not appear to currently be doing that, so kudos to them for being more conciliatory than I would be.

Just one dude's opinion.

So you say people would not be talking after 4 months without ANY update from Razbam modules. For you as for ED it would be better to hide the problem instead to keep the customers informed.

Edited June 6, 2024 by Ignition

[Kifter1983]

Hope Razbam and ED work something out. I really enjoy the Harrier module and I'll be pretty sad if it goes due to lack of support. I don't want my money back, I'd much rather keep flying this great and interesting aircraft.

[Oban]

34 minutes ago, Futurecvsh said:

If you understand our frustration, you should solve this, we have been patient for months, we have put our money and trust in you, you have to do your part as a company that I still consider serious, you have to understand your consumers, do not let us down.

Why are you acting like nobody's actually trying to resolve this situation, you're venting to a very accomodating and understanding moderator, not part of the ED development team, nor part of their legal team, he's already informed all that ED are actively working to try and seek a solution, patience doesn't seem to be a virtue these days.

The very people that push for early release are normally the same people who then go and shoot it all down because there's things not working properly...

I too have all the Razbam modules, I'm not in a flat out free fall spin making unrealistic demands, or seeking a refund, it's a tomorrow problem, and one that ONLY the legal teams can sort out, I can be patient, I can wait 6 months, it's no big deal, I have a life outside of DCS that keeps me occupied, if the modules cease to be functionable in 6 months time, then I might be inclined to ask for refunds..

Yes it's frustrating... if you let it bother you that much, it's your choice at the end of the day, its only a game, and not worth stressing yourself out about, leave that to the respective CEO's and legal teams, chill and enjoy the modules whilst they're still active

[Ignition]

5 hours ago, OldFlyer said:

Why do you keep posting in this thread then?

It affects ED/DCS as a whole, this is beyond Razbam. This situation can happen with ANY other 3rd party developer and the reputation of ED is at stake.

[Hammer1-1]

6 minutes ago, Ignition said:

It affects ED/DCS as a whole, this is beyond Razbam. This situation can happen with ANY other 3rd party developer and the reputation of ED is at stake.

But it hasnt. You're missing the picture that nobody else is having an issue getting paid except Razbam, and Razbam is the only developer not supporting their modules RIGHT NOW. Sometimes the obvious is staring people right in the face and people refuse to see it. You just seen two highly sought after modules long since in development just released in the last 2 weeks, ED is continuing work on their F-16/18, Apache and their other helicopters, and we have several newcomer 3rd party devs STILL HERE without having introduced a single module yet. No, the only reputation at stake right now is Razbam unfortunately. I know at least 20 ppl that Ive "told you so" almost 2 years ago that something like this would happen with Razbam specifically. Just let it go, its almost certainly going to get better from here on out...

[Horns]

40 minutes ago, Ignition said:

So you say people would not be talking after 4 months without ANY update from Razbam modules. For you as for ED it would be better to hide the problem instead to keep the customers informed.

 

100%. Find the resolution, figure out where you stand, then tell people what the plan is. Doing it this way leads to what we have: customers distressed and wanting to know how an as-yet undefined situation is going to be resolved.

Edit: My first writing of this used the word “panicking”. Distressed fits the intended meaning far better and I duly changed it.

Edited June 6, 2024 by Horns
Changed word to “distressed” from original “panicking”

[Shibiswag]

3 hours ago, Capn kamikaze said:

These modules only survive by being patched to work with the host simulation, we have paid our money, and they have not even reached their "released" version, the fact we've paid our money up front, and now it looks like we're never going to get that "release" version, I'd say that pretty much perfectly reaches the definition of "scam".

Paid for something we're not going to get.

If I sold you a car on the understanding that I'd deliver the wheels and engine at a later date and then didn't, what would you call that.

Software is no different to any other product, we still have consumer rights, and the law still applies whether it's nuts and bolts or zeros and ones.

What I don't get is what they think they'll get for defending this BS.

 

No one forced you to buy an early access item.
You do so at your own risk knowing things like this can happen.

[Ignition]

21 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

But it hasnt. You're missing the picture that nobody else is having an issue getting paid except Razbam, and Razbam is the only developer not supporting their modules RIGHT NOW. Sometimes the obvious is staring people right in the face and people refuse to see it. You just seen two highly sought after modules long since in development just released in the last 2 weeks, ED is continuing work on their F-16/18, Apache and their other helicopters, and we have several newcomer 3rd party devs STILL HERE without having introduced a single module yet. No, the only reputation at stake right now is Razbam unfortunately. I know at least 20 ppl that Ive "told you so" almost 2 years ago that something like this would happen with Razbam specifically. Just let it go, its almost certainly going to get better from here on out...

You assume Razbam is wrong and ED is right. I don't because I don't know, WE don't know.

We don't know what happened, even if Razbam breached the contract how do you know Heatblur, Deka or whatever 3rd party will not also breach the contract.

The business model of ED is prone to these problems.

[Raptor82]

6 hours ago, Major_Mayhem said:

Just to be blunt, I don't think the issue is going to get resolved unless ED takes full control of the Razbam modules and continues to develop them or gives them to another reputable vendor to do with such with like Heatblur.

Razbam has been spotty at supporting their existing modules before the current drama and I have no faith they will continue to be around in year or two once the dust settles. I kind of suspect they are having insolvency issues as is.

I really wish Eagle Dynamics will Discontinue selling Razbam products until the issue with them is adequately resolved.

By continuing to sell spotty Razbam Products that either are breaking or will break due to the lack of support Eagle Dynamics is putting pure greed over their customers and the customer experience.

Way to many people (Myself Included) are asking for refunds on the F-15E and other Razbam Products. It is utterly IRRESPONSIBLE to continue to sell these products.

The only other alternative customers have is to start a class action lawsuit against the parties involved, and that really won't do much other then maybe get you a store credit refund (Probably a partial refund at that) and make some lawyers a lot of money.

 

I have to agree with this statement until this is resolved all Razbam products should not be sold.  I truly do hope for a favorable outcome.  But until that glorious day lets not sell a product that could possibly break with each patch.

[Beirut]

15 minutes ago, Shibiswag said:

No one forced you to buy an early access item.
You do so at your own risk knowing things like this can happen.

 

Completely disagree.

 

With an established product like DCS, with a long history of EA module releases. there is a reasonable expectation of continued support. Sometimes prompt, sometimes not so prompt. But at no point is there an expectation of official abandonment of a module, much less an entire set of modules. If that were anywhere in the ballpark of being an accepted sales practice, nobody would buy anything.

[Major_Mayhem]

11 minutes ago, Ignition said:

You assume Razbam is wrong and ED is right. I don't because I don't know, WE don't know.

We don't know what happened, even if Razbam breached the contract how do you know Heatblur, Deka or whatever 3rd party will not also breach the contract.

The business model of ED is prone to these problems.

You know this doesn't have to have anything to do with who is in the right or the wrong.

Razbam stopped supporting/developing their products to punish the player base, so that the player base would put pressure on Eagle Dynamics motivating them (ED) to give Razbam what they want.

Not getting into the problems between ED and Razbam but at the end of the day Razbam chose to stop developing/supporting there products for ED's DCS world.

Eagle Dynamic has chosen to continue selling said products while their customer base screams and cries for refunds on those same Razbam products they paid real money for that are no longer being supported let alone developed by the developer Razbam.

Currently Only a handful of people have received refunds out of all the people that have requested one.

Most of my squadmates have asked for refunds on the F15E alone .... to the best of my knowledge so far only 1 the first has actually received a refund and we all submitted ours the same way with the same format.

ED should stop selling Razbam Products until this is resolved. Just Sayin!

[Rainmaker]

Just now, Major_Mayhem said:

You know this doesn't have to have anything to do with who is in the right or the wrong.

Razbam stopped supporting/developing their products to punish the player base, so that the player base would put pressure on Eagle Dynamics motivating them (ED) to give Razbam what they want.

Not getting into the problems between ED and Razbam but at the end of the day Razbam chose to stop developing/supporting there products for ED's DCS world.

Eagle Dynamic has chosen to continue selling said products while their customer base screams and cries for refunds on those same Razbam products they paid real money for that are no longer being supported let alone developed by the developer Razbam.

Currently Only a handful of people have received refunds out of all the people that have requested one.

Most of my squadmates have asked for refunds on the F15E alone .... to the best of my knowledge so far only 1 the first has actually received a refund and we all submitted ours the same way with the same format.

ED should stop selling Razbam Products until this is resolved. Just Sayin!

Punish?  You mean like the last 10 months they worked without pay to support the module?  That punishment?  I think you need to be looking at this from a different perspective.  

[Beirut]

1 minute ago, Major_Mayhem said:

ED should stop selling Razbam Products until this is resolved. Just Sayin!

 

I'm not convinced of that yet, but it might not be too hard to convince me either.

 

At $100Cdn. for a plane, it really should be made clear what support the module will receive.

[lead dispenser]

1 minute ago, Beirut said:

With an established product like DCS, with a long history of EA module releases. there is a reasonable expectation of continued support. Sometimes prompt, sometimes not so prompt. But at no point is there an expectation of official abandonment of a module, much less an entire set of modules. If that were anywhere in the ballpark of being an accepted sales practice, nobody would buy anything.

you are absolutely correct  there is a reasonable expectation of continued support. Sometimes prompt sometimes not so prompt . But at no point is there an expectation of official abandonment of a module, much less an entire set of modules, . An there still isn't, Nobody has said the the products will be abandoned that's all speculation  so far all that has happened is razbam have missed an update patch ...ie sometimes not so prompt if we didn't have somebody blasting their internal dramas we would all be just sayin a late patch dame it 

[Beirut]

2 minutes ago, lead dispenser said:

But at no point is there an expectation of official abandonment of a module, much less an entire set of modules, . An there still isn't, Nobody has said the the products will be abandoned that's all speculation . . . 

 

it's more than speculation, unfortunately. RB basically told everyone to pound sand. Maybe just to pound sand temporarily, but pound sand none the less.

 

As it stand, right now, the entire set of modules has been abandoned. That could change tomorrow, and I really hope it does, but right now... I have an F-15E, a Harrier, and an SA map that are orphaned. That is the reality. The speculation is that they will not still be orphans tomorrow.

[ApoNOOB]

I considered putting some time into DCS again, and would have looked at buying new modules like the strike eagle. With this hanging over my head, i am unwilling to buy any DCS modules at all. The Hawk fiasco still makes me angry and it looks like this is going the same way. I thought there were solutions after the last abandonware thing but it's just the same all over again and investing money without any kind of assurance is a big nono for me.

[lead dispenser]

1 minute ago, Beirut said:

it's more than speculation, unfortunately. RB basically told everyone to pound sand. Maybe just to pound sand temporarily, but pound sand none the less.

 

As it stand, right now, the entire set of modules has been abandoned. That could change tomorrow, and I really hope it does, but right now... I have an F-15E, a Harrier, and an SA map that are orphaned. That is the reality. The speculation is that they will not still be orphans tomorrow.

that's complete rubbish no official word or statement has been released an until that happens no abandonment has occurred somebody getting mad in a discord is not an official statement 

[Hammer1-1]

47 minutes ago, Ignition said:

You assume Razbam is wrong and ED is right. I don't because I don't know, WE don't know.

We don't know what happened, even if Razbam breached the contract how do you know Heatblur, Deka or whatever 3rd party will not also breach the contract.

The business model of ED is prone to these problems.

Again, all I have to do to make a good assumption is looking at Razbams history and just put 2+2 together to see where the problem lies. It may not be a 100% correct assumption, but its a "safe" assumption. As for the business model, its not much different than what Microsoft has offered for their simulator for the last 20+ years and counting. Seems to be a good model TBH.

Edited June 7, 2024 by Hammer1-1

[Beirut]

Just now, lead dispenser said:

that's complete rubbish no official word or statement has been released an until that happens no abandonment has occurred somebody getting mad in a discord is not an official statement 

 

RB said the modules will receive no further support until... whenever. When whenever comes around and there is support again, you will be correct. And I will be delighted.

 

As it stands right now, my RB modules are orphans.

[lead dispenser]

Just now, Beirut said:

RB said the modules will receive no further support until... whenever. When whenever comes around and there is support again, you will be correct. And I will be delighted.

 

As it stands right now, my RB modules are orphans.

until the dispute is resolved .which means they have intent to do so ie no abandonment 

[Beirut]

5 minutes ago, lead dispenser said:

until the dispute is resolved .which means they have intent to do so ie no abandonment 

 

Eight-weeks ago... no support

Seven-weeks ago... no support

Six-weeks ago... no support

Five-weeks ago... no support

Four weeks ago... no support

Three-weeks ago... no support

Two-weeks ago... no support

One week ago... no support

Yesterday... no support

Today... no support

Tomorrow... who knows

 

As it stands right now and as it has stood for two-months, my RB modules are orphans.

 

.

Edited June 7, 2024 by Beirut

[lead dispenser]

Just now, Beirut said:

Eight-weeks ago... no support

Seven-weeks ago... no support

Six-weeks ago... no support

Five-weeks ago... no support

Four weeks ago... no support

Three-weeks ago... no support

One week ago... no support

Yesterday... no support

Today... no support

Tomorrow... who knows

 

As it stands right now and as it has stood for two-months, my RB modules are orphans.

your joking right you literally said above that sometimes updates are not so prompt an after 8 weeks you think its been abandoned 

how many game patch's have we had in 8 weeks we've had 2 an razbam have only missed 1 the latest 5 june, the patch before that may 22 razbam updated south atlantic map so they could of updated planes but didn't that's on them