waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[spikef22]

31 minutes ago, spikef22 said:

From the perspective of a consumer. The one thing that has bothered me extremely is the fact that it feels Eagle Dynamics is being very two-faced about handling this situation. To start, while it is a different situation they're absolutely echoes of the hawk scandal in this whole debacle. The fact ED corporate lied about the measures put in place to prevent this from happening again feels like a spear to the chest. Furthermore if the furlonged razabm employees claims on the discord are to be believed, which at this point I'm not sure why you wouldn't. ED paid a "hush money" claim to razbam right before this went public and since then has been completely ignoring attempts from Razbam staff to reach out and resolve this nor providing the last quarters sales reports. So what gives, how can there be a solution to this if corporate doesn't even want to communicate with razbam? Sure this might be part of the process but it's only digging a deeper hole for all parties including the community. Open the lines of communication or we'll all sink. 

 

I don't want to die I want to fly. 

 

Thanks 

 

I just want to double down on this. This situation already has had a very lasting impact on razbam. If we are lucky we will get the mig-23 and pucara but this has set in motion the beginning of razbam twilighting their partnership with DCS and making new modules. This is a MASSIVE hit to the community as razbam had a multitude of new projects lined up after the mig-23. We'll be lucky if we can salvage this much, but a solution needs to be in the Pipeline right now because in the long run the loss of razbam will negatively effect EDs long term sales and the platform as a whole. 

Edited June 18, 2024 by spikef22

[Beirut]

9 minutes ago, spikef22 said:

To each their own the Kiowa and kola were must haves for me. But I must abstaine going forward o7 

 

Your dollars, your choice. Respect. 

 

I was hesitant to spend, I'm wary of things, but as stated I just gotta fly. On the plus side, with the F-15E down and out, I have more brain cells for other planes. 

[Erazor]

4 hours ago, draconus said:

You have a workaround, so you can use it, what's your point?

Changing the system date is a security risk for a variety of reasons.

Edited June 18, 2024 by Erazor

[ProtoTypeK7]

I still intend to buy the module if the radar is fixed and it will continue to be maintained, if not, I'd be happy with a flaming cliffs level version of the strike eagle.

[av8orDave]

6 hours ago, Brainfreeze said:

Razbam modules are some of the best / most accomplished modules for DCS.  Both Mirage and Harrier are gems. The F15E is just incredible so far.  The ED Razbam partnership is old and should never have broken in this fashion.  Seeing this bad soap opera unravel for what optically looks like a pissing competition between two CEOs at the expense of their developers and us, customers, is saddening and put the ED business model and partner model in a bad light.  

To add insult to injury, every update from ED tends to break something in most modules, including theirs, which means a module is heavy maintenance for the developper.  Old missions, campaigns etc nothing works after a few updates.  As a result, older modules become obsoletes as dev focus on newer ones.  A sad reality that commercial sense will ensure lives on forever.

 

I agree with you wholeheartedly that the Razbam modules are some of the best for DCS. The Harrier, Mirage, and even the F-15E have been really enjoyable. It is definitely an old and successful partnership between ED and Razbam.

Where I'd slightly disagree is on the "pissing competition" point. I have no inside knowledge, and I may be very, very wrong, but the situation does resemble a couple of situations I have seen unfold personally in my own business experience.

It appears to me that one CEO took probably a calculated risk to sell a product in a fashion that had been explicitly prohibited by the agreement between the two companies, but figured the enormity of challenging the sale and magnitude of unwinding things he believed would enable them to "get away with it" anyway. ED probably saw the breach as too much to simply watch happen, probably because of the IP protection implications, and here we are.

I've seen these types of things go both ways, and I wouldn't venture a guess as to the outcome, given that we really have no knowledge of the details of the agreement, the alleged infractions by both sides, and what either side sees as an equitable settlement. Only time will tell.

 

[Horns]

5 hours ago, Renko said:

I have been a PC user for many many years, and I have never seen a software company ask users to exclude their installation folder from their antivirus permanently.
Maybe in some cases as a temporary fix while they work on a solution, but not permanently to avoid problems.

May I ask if ED as a company is officially asking this, to permanently exclude from our antivirus checks your installation software folder?
I know there is nothing malicious behind this, just some certificate issues or related.
But can't I expect ED as a company to keep those things up to date so that I as a user don't have to resort to that solution permanently?
 

Regards

I've seen this happen many times, especially with peripheral 'configurators'. In fairness I was a bit alarmed at the idea the first time I saw it too, but it's not something that out of the ordinary.

ED has no control over what your AV software excludes or doesn't - if software developers could do that, then everyone developing malware would simply program it to be excluded from AV checks. If you'd like a permanent fix I suggest you speak to your AV software company (Edit: I wouldn't expect them to help, other than to advise you to exclude the software if you know it's safe). If you haven't actively installed an AV and you are running Windows 10 or later, then your AV will be Windows Defender.

Edit 2: One such example 

 

Edited June 18, 2024 by Horns
As noted

[GUCCI]

8 minutes ago, ProtoTypeK7 said:

I still intend to buy the module if the radar is fixed and it will continue to be maintained, if not, I'd be happy with a flaming cliffs level version of the strike eagle.

In my honest opinion, the Strike Eagle is far too complex to work with FC3. There are a lot of systems to work with as well as the fact that it’s Multicrew. The PACS, the weapons deliveries and Smart weapons page, as well as the air to ground radar and its different modes. I cannot imagine being able to manage all these things without clicking inside the cockpit. Oh, that’s not even mentioning systems like TFR and the UFC to input data into. This bird only really works as a full fidelity entry into DCS.

[FailureToReport]

Hmmmmm

I don't stay active in DCS forums or communities but someone linked this to me. As someone who owns every modern US Module, this has left a very very sour taste towards Razbam. 

I don't care what your grievance is with Eagle Dynamics, short of "We have never been paid a dollar", you don't just hold back updates and fixes to a product you've put up for sale and taken money for, especially while you make stupid statements on a public platform saying how you "value your customers". Yeah, you value them as blackmail I guess. 

Shame on Razbam.

[spikef22]

1 minute ago, FailureToReport said:

Hmmmmm

I don't stay active in DCS forums or communities but someone linked this to me. As someone who owns every modern US Module, this has left a very very sour taste towards Razbam. 

I don't care what your grievance is with Eagle Dynamics, short of "We have never been paid a dollar", you don't just hold back updates and fixes to a product you've put up for sale and taken money for, especially while you make stupid statements on a public platform saying how you "value your customers". Yeah, you value them as blackmail I guess. 

Shame on Razbam.

Would you work with out being paid for nearly a year for all your hard work? 

[Ala12Rv-Tundra]

Thanks for the summary!
Will check this thread now and then. Hoping for a positive outcome for everyone.

[Strikeman]

I guess one thing I feel isn't right is that the F-15E is still being sold on the ED website, and its currently not in a good state. And there is no communication as to where the relationship might be going. I guess we assume that people who purchase DCS modules are in the know and are making the purchasing decisions based on all the information. But If there are people just starting out because the F-15E brought them into the community, it would be crappy for them to start using the module and not know what the current state and future of it might be.

Again I don't know what the legalities are in this dispute, maybe there is something that says ED can sell the module regardless if its being maintained.

[FailureToReport]

18 minutes ago, spikef22 said:

Would you work with out being paid for nearly a year for all your hard work? 

Like I said, did they receive NOTHING for the F-15E? Have they publicly said that? If that's the case, I'd be more understanding of them stopping future work. 

Otherwise, no, bricking or leaving the product bricked on purpose with the intent of using your customers as bargaining chips is pretty horrible. 

E: To be clear, I would be understanding of them stopping future work if they have not been paid, I would still consider leaving the F-15 broken to use as a bargaining chip utterly reprehensible and honestly I'm already filling out my refund so that I can walk away from anything Razbam I own. There are plenty of other aircraft I enjoy flying, I have zero desire to support a company that thinks myself or any other customer should be used as an unwilling negotiation aid. 

Edited June 18, 2024 by FailureToReport

[mousepilot]

Thank you for this important update.

There is wild speculation running around, and this kind of information helps curb the sensational stories.

[speed-of-heat]

3 minutes ago, FailureToReport said:

Otherwise, no, bricking or leaving the product bricked on purpose with the intent of using your customers as bargaining chips is pretty horrible. 

Hanlon's Razor applies 

Edited June 18, 2024 by speed-of-heat

[spikef22]

2 minutes ago, FailureToReport said:

Like I said, did they receive NOTHING for the F-15E? Have they publicly said that? If that's the case, I'd be more understanding of them stopping future work. 

Otherwise, no, bricking or leaving the product bricked on purpose with the intent of using your customers as bargaining chips is pretty horrible. 

Aside from a small hush money payment they have received nothing since about September of last year this has been confirmed by both parties. 

[FailureToReport]

5 minutes ago, spikef22 said:

Aside from a small hush money payment they have received nothing since about September of last year this has been confirmed by both parties. 

So they received money from people who bought the F-15......which again, means they're purposefully leaving the module broken to make those customers angry. Cool, what a 5D Chess move that will surely build all the good feelings. 

I don't care for ED, I'm still pretty sour about the Black Shark being a 3 product series and I'll hold onto that until I die, but what Razbam is doing is wrong as well. 

[Viper33]

2 hours ago, Mizzy said:

So Razbam don't have to fulfill their part of the Contract? A bit one sided isn't it?

I mentioned that, first sentence. Read. 

Fact is, if a contractor isn't paid for over a year he can simply not deliver the product/service and make it unavailable. This is how business works. I don't know what else Nick Grey was expecting as the outcome in this situation. 

[spikef22]

1 minute ago, FailureToReport said:

So they received money from people who bought the F-15......which again, means they're purposefully leaving the module broken to make those customers angry. Cool, what a 5D Chess move that will surely build all the good feelings. 

I don't care for ED, I'm still pretty sour about the Black Shark being a 3 product series and I'll hold onto that until I die, but what Razbam is doing is wrong as well. 

I don't think you understand razbam has been paid pennies since launch. And there is a 10-12 month period were they didn't get a dime...up to and including the present 

[Sinclair]

hace 2 horas, shagrat dijo:

 

I also recommend to add an "I am not a lawyer, this should not be taken as legal advise" disclaimer, in case you are based in a country where negligence may be a civil law tort that could get you in trouble.

 

You are not scaring away noone and we will keep exposing publicly all the illegalities we find as long as we want until they are not adressed properly.

Edited June 18, 2024 by Sinclair

[Mric29]

"A bad agreement is better than a good lawsuit", it's a French saying that could take on its full meaning here...

[Wizard_03]

17 minutes ago, spikef22 said:

I don't think you understand razbam has been paid pennies since launch. And there is a 10-12 month period were they didn't get a dime...up to and including the present 

Not getting anymore dimes or pennies from me. Im done getting scambam'd. Should have learned my lesson with the harrier.

Edited June 18, 2024 by Wizard_03

[spikef22]

Just now, Wizard_03 said:

Not getting anymore dimes from me. Im done getting scambam'd. Should have learned my lesson with the harrier

You can lead a horse to water...

Edited June 18, 2024 by spikef22

[Firebird1955]

Nineline.  

You need to start a post that is just titled HE SAID/SHE SAID

 

[NineLine]

Once again, you are welcome to post here but if you feel you need to campaign to convert people to your opinion you can move on, nobody knows enough about the entire situation to make any sort of assumptions at this point, so there is no point in getting mad at each other or making sweeping claims either way. We all just need to let it play out and hope for the best. Thanks

7 minutes ago, Firebird1955 said:

Nineline.  

You need to start a post that is just titled HE SAID/SHE SAID

 

You may be right, or a lawyers cosplay thread at least

 

26 minutes ago, spikef22 said:

I don't think you understand razbam has been paid pennies since launch. And there is a 10-12 month period were they didn't get a dime...up to and including the present 

As I said this situation has been on going for some time. It's deeper and more complex than anyone really knows. You can make assumptions based on the little that is out there or comments made by people who don't really know or understand what is happening, but that does no one any good and just further divides everyone here. 

[FailureToReport]

7 minutes ago, NineLine said:

Once again, you are welcome to post here but if you feel you need to campaign to convert people to your opinion you can move on, nobody knows enough about the entire situation to make any sort of assumptions at this point, so there is no point in getting mad at each other or making sweeping claims either way. We all just need to let it play out and hope for the best. Thanks

You may be right, or a lawyers cosplay thread at least

BUT THEY'VE ONLY BEEN PAID PENNIES! 

There are always two sides, and I'm sure Razbam has some grievance, and it may even be justified, but using customers as blackmail never makes you the good guy when the dust settles.

Edited June 18, 2024 by FailureToReport