waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[Guest]

9 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Did Ron say so?

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

Agreed.  Unless Razbam is going to stand behind these random Discord claims in a press release or similar official statement, they are pretty worthless IMO.  I’d even go so far as to say that IF Razbam management is coordinating/condoning those unofficial statements it’s pretty cowardly.  If Razbam wants to say something, have the balls to say it clearly, officially and be willing to deal with the consequences.

EDIT: credit to ED here, I don’t believe I’ve seen any significant leaks or unofficial statements on this issue from their side.  Every statement I’ve seen (other than the original official statement) has been calm, neutral, and with no additional facts or claims not contained in an official statement.  Kudos to Nineline and Bignewy especially for that. 

Edited August 31, 2024 by wombat778

[Ignition]

Are we there yet?

ED, I WANT MY F-15E to have regularly UPDATES! as it should since it's an EA module without updates since 5 7 months. I still have the module waiting for you to resolve this issue.

This model is not safe for the consumer, find another one, thanks.

Edited September 1, 2024 by Ignition

[Mizzy]

4 hours ago, wombat778 said:

Unless Razbam is going to stand behind these random Discord claims in a press release or similar official statement, they are pretty worthless IMO.  

He (assumption) did say "Razbam has said over and over again in their Discord that they asked for the F-15E to be removed from sale". So it will be extremely simple to get the evidence of what he is saying is official and true. If this is forthcoming, then my speculation is wrong. However, I am not holding my breath.

Mizzy

[Guest]

43 minutes ago, Mizzy said:

He (assumption) did say "Razbam has said over and over again in their Discord that they asked for the F-15E to be removed from sale".

I’m on the Discord, and I have seen posts from a member of the Razbam team making that claim.  But I see nothing to suggest that it is an official statement of the Razbam entity not just the opinion of that person.  And that is the problem.  Those kinds of semi-official/semi-unofficial statements create a ton of confusion over what’s true and what isn’t.
 

At least if Razbam makes an official claim in a statement, it has likely been vetted by lawyers and is defensible (since if it’s a lie/exaggeration/half truth/cherry picked etc. Razbam is open to defamation claims). If anything, the fact that Razbam chooses to not make those claims “official” tells me they are more likely to be untrue / incomplete / misleading / one-sided than if the person hadn’t said anything at all. 

Edited August 31, 2024 by wombat778

[Mike Force Team]

I hope the dispute ends soon.

[Mizzy]

15 hours ago, wombat778 said:

I’m on the Discord, and I have seen posts from a member of the Razbam team making that claim.  But I see nothing to suggest that it is an official statement of the Razbam entity not just the opinion of that person.  And that is the problem.  Those kinds of semi-official/semi-unofficial statements create a ton of confusion over what’s true and what isn’t.

Indeed, smoke and mirrors, gossip but nothing official. There has been a great deal of complaint over the continued sale of the F15 module, mostly directed at ED being the one at fault. So if there really was an official statement by Razbam that clearly states they have asked for the module to be removed from the ED store, then that would also generate an official reply from ED and that hasn't happened. All I know is it has been stated the module is still on sale for legal reasons and I have posted my thoughts on this issue in my post above.

Mizzy

Edited September 1, 2024 by Mizzy

[Mizzy]

On 8/31/2024 at 11:29 PM, Mike Force Team said:

I hope the dispute ends soon.

We all do on both sides, but I suspect this will take a very long time.

The dispute is obviously very bitter reading Razbam's official statement, but it appears to me, their (his) statement is hiding the real dispute and spinning it to save face, or his own bacon with the contracted developers he used. So let's think rationally, DCS is not the F15E, most players are using the other modules, the F4, F16, F14, Mig21, Spitfire, Mosquito, all the hello's, F18 with Super carrier, Normandy and WWII, cold war Mig21, F86 vs Mig 15, great maps with loads of recent conflicts (nothing I am interested in !), highly detailed other modules... Let's get the F15E in perspective and get the delusional fanatics in their place trying to steal the DCS show. Greetings.

Mizzy 

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

On 8/26/2024 at 4:39 AM, SkateZilla said:

If Timeline's are to be believed,

- RB's F-15E Contract Agreement was signed before VEAO's departure abandoning the Hawk, thus any subsequent License Agreement Changes for new Licenses does not apply.
- Per RB's discord, they themselves don't even have the source code(?), let alone ED, per the team members, the code is with Galinette (Avionics) and Cpt. Smiley (Flight Model).

So the Hawk Situation and resulting Agreement changes should be taken with a grain of salt here,
People either don't know or often forget, both RB and IRiS had announced agreements to do the F-15 as far back as 2012.

 

Assuming this is correct, obviously we can't say it is for sure, but let's assume it is.

If this is the case, then I find that both ED and RB were extremely unwise in their dealings and both need to review their standards in their dealings.

Why didn't they amend the contract in the wake of the VEAO debacle?
Why didn't RB have the code become their IP, instead leaving it to be hostage between two individuals?

I've made it very clear that my trust in RB is non-existent, but this paints ED in a pretty poor light as well. Sure, the legal hoops for amending contracts are something else, but it would have provided the end users with a lot more confidence. Also, if RB doesn't actually have the source code, it could very well explain the lack of news.

I'd also make sure neither of the developers in question were ever even near my business were I running anything programming adjacent.

Edited September 2, 2024 by MiG21bisFishbedL

[Checkmate]

I’m guessing by now RB and ED have moved on. Why are so many people in this forum still posting?

[Rudel_chw]

1 hour ago, Checkmate said:

I’m guessing by now RB and ED have moved on.
 

 

without telling the users ? … unlikely. ED better inform us, so that some of us can  decide if it is worthwhile to begin purchasing on their Store again, or not.

 

1 hour ago, Checkmate said:

Why are so many people in this forum still posting?

 

maybe they are worried about the fate of their razbam modules? … guess you don’t have any. 

[Horns]

1 hour ago, Checkmate said:

I’m guessing by now RB and ED have moved on. Why are so many people in this forum still posting?

Because we continue to take an interest in an ongoing situation. Feel free to not participate.

[draconus]

9 hours ago, Mizzy said:

So let's think rationally, DCS is not the F15E, most players are using the other modules...

Of course it's one of many DCS modules but it is very popular one. We don't know how much have refunded it but maybe we shed some light...

[-orlok-]

can you enlarge on this? I dont follow? is not the IP thing a seperate issue?

Edited September 2, 2024 by -orlok-

[Mike Force Team]

When a resolution is reached, be it resolved or two parties not working together, ED is very likely to tell us.

[Beirut]

13 hours ago, Checkmate said:

I’m guessing by now RB and ED have moved on. Why are so many people in this forum still posting?

 

Same reason you did.

[Schmidtfire]

6 hours ago, Mike Force Team said:

When a resolution is reached, be it resolved or two parties not working together, ED is very likely to tell us.

Perhaps. But it's been 6 months now. What would a resolution look like at this point?

Chances that RB and ED continue to work together after this situation are slim to none.

And even if ED somehow manages to get full access to the F-15E IP and code from Razbam, there is no way they can start supporting a module without intimate knowledge of the code and access to SME's and other data.  

Maybe I am a bit pessimistic here, but there is nothing to worry about. You either accept F-15E at it's current state or try to get a refund.

I would love to see a solution where everything works out great for everyone and the module. Lots of hopium left among the F-15E enthusiasts, but I would like to see a realistic scenario on how this situation can end on a good note for F-15E owners. 

Edited September 2, 2024 by Schmidtfire

[Mizzy]

10 hours ago, Blackeye said:

Not that unexpected given that ED also withheld payment from other developers.

Where did you get this from? Do you have evidence ED has done this with other developers and the circumstances for doing so? Please don't post something off reddit unless it's an official announcement. 

[Blackeye]

29 minutes ago, Mizzy said:

Please don't post something off reddit unless it's an official announcement. 

While I'll agree that not everything posted on the internet is true I'll uphold that the same applies to official statements and reserve the prerogative to decide for me what sources I deem trustworthy enough to take into consideration and also which I want to talk about - just as ED can decide what they want to allow on their forums.

You are obviously free to only consider official announcements or post whatever you want, but then telling people what not to post seems a bit odd when you're not in an official position to do so.

Edited September 2, 2024 by Blackeye

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, Schmidtfire said:

Chances that RB and ED continue to work together after this situation are slim to none.

And even if ED somehow manages to get full access to the F-15E IP and code from Razbam, there is no way they can start supporting a module without intimate knowledge of the code and access to SME's and other data.  

I agree on the first part.  There is some seriously bad blood there. But I am less sure on the second.  Possibly the one useful takeaway I've seen from the various unofficial gossip and leaks is there is tension not just among RB/ED but between RB and its own contractors.  I can imagine a scenario where ED takes over the module and ends up working directly with some of RB's former contractors.  

Also, I don't think it's necessarily all that hard to understand and get up to speed on code, especially code that uses an SDK that you are very familiar with.  Of course it wouldn't happen overnight, but I imagine with a few days or weeks of dedicated effort a new programmer could have a pretty good understanding of the code.  

[Pipe]

11 hours ago, Blackeye said:

https://www.reddit.com/r/DCSExposed/comments/1f6su6h/nick_grey_announcing_payment_soon_on_august_26th/  - 2023

I guess “soon” in Nick’s world is more than a year away..

[Mizzy]

1 hour ago, Blackeye said:

telling people what not to post seems a bit odd when you're not in an official position to do so.

 

Where did you get this assumption from other than I don't want to hear gossip from reddit? Yor said "Not that unexpected given that ED also withheld payment from other developers." I am asking you again, Do you have evidence ED has not paid other developers? It's a simple question. It appears you replied, 'I believe what I want to believe' and that's fair enough but DO NOT say it as if it is a fact without evidence. So, where is your evidence?

2 hours ago, wombat778 said:

 I can imagine a scenario where ED takes over the module and ends up working directly with some of RB's former contractors.  

So can I and I believe this is the way this dispute is going.

[Mizzy]

2 hours ago, wombat778 said:

Also, I don't think it's necessarily all that hard to understand and get up to speed on code, especially code that uses an SDK that you are very familiar with.  Of course it wouldn't happen overnight, but I imagine with a few days or weeks of dedicated effort a new programmer could have a pretty good understanding of the code.  

Indeed it has merit and plausibility.

[PhantomHans]

I don't know why we even have the Razbam forum at this point?

The modules are all abandoned and unsupported.  Why bother?

[Mizzy]

10 minutes ago, PhantomHans said:

The modules are all abandoned and unsupported.  Why bother?

That is the confusion, the other modules are out of early access and not abandoned at all, they are considered by Razbam as feature complete and the modules were getting no further updates. However, these modules (M2000, Harrier, Mig19,) are not abandoned by Eagle Dynamics whatsoever. They are supported within the platform of DCS. Can you see where the confusion comes from ? Just because Razbam has left the scene (in my opinion) it doesn't mean the modules under their Brand name won't work in DCS. Abandoned and unsupported are two very different concepts that do not apply in this context.

Mizzy

Edited September 3, 2024 by Mizzy
Time for my bed

[Guest]

14 hours ago, Blackeye said:

So it does look like that IP thing was brought up after the fact. Not that unexpected given that ED also withheld payment from other developers.

We don't know that.  Assuming that the conversation is accurate, for all we know whatever issues were discovered as part of the internal controls process for releasing payment.  Or perhaps the IP issue was discovered because someone issued a cease and desist letter the day before the payment was to be made (I had that exact situation happen -- an IP infringement cease and desist letter received less than 24 hours before a major closing -- trust me it was long nights for the lawyers involved).  Any number of other scenarios are also possible.  

The point being that 3 text messages totally out of context tells us practically nothing about what happened and who is at fault.  But I think it's pretty likely there is a lot more to that exchange than we have been shown and whoever is sharing it has a reason for cherry picking those 3 texts out of context...

Edited September 3, 2024 by wombat778